A Stupid Shutdown

[HVAU 673]

31 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Your points 2 and 3 are contradictory.  The last detail I read was for ~600 additional miles of barrier....so if your point is "we don't need a wall everywhere; and what we need is a wall where it makes sense"...then that is what the Trump admin already has on the table...as well as for ground (seismic),  aerial and additional personnel.  So you are really saying you are for what Trump admin has proposed.   What am i missing?....everything on the table today is a Google away.  

You'd be correct if I hadn't made the other points about the previous agreement that Trump walked away from.  I specified that there are strategic locations where border wall would make sense.  Also,  the 600 miles you are referring to is essentially completing the wall except for natural barriers and existing man-made barriers.  If I'm in error here you can provide a more specific breakdown and source.  I would like to have it.

Again, the GOP, the Democrats and Trump had an agreement.  There are ways to return to that agreement with additional concessions for future funding.  There are ways to coddle all of these delicate egos and get the government open.

[japantiger 4,051]

1 minute ago, HVAU said:

You'd be correct if I hadn't made the other points about the previous agreement that Trump walked away from.  I specified that there are strategic locations where border wall would make sense.  Also,  the 600 miles you are referring to is essentially completing the wall except for natural barriers and existing man-made barriers.  If I'm in error here you can provide a more specific breakdown and source.  I would like to have it.

Again, the GOP, the Democrats and Trump had an agreement.  There are ways to return to that agreement with additional concessions for future funding.  There are ways to coddle all of these delicate egos and get the government open.

Yes...you build the wall where natural barriers aren't available...that's kind of the point.  That has always been the proposal.    I really don't understand your argument.  

 

This gem hit the wire a few minutes ago...Spent the nite in Alpine 10 days ago on the way to hunting mule deer down on the border.  Pretty country...by the way, no walls out there...you can just walk across the river south of Alpine at Lajitas...and all across that area to Juarez...border checkpoints are 15 to 20 miles inside the US...not at the border....the picture below the article is a beautiful sunset down there....if you look closely and zoom on the white object in the top/middle of the photo; you can see some of the aerial surveillance manned there (a blimp; this is just outside Valentine; about 1.5 hours further West; ~12 miles off the border where I was standing).   Very good hunt by the way.....

 

https://sanangelolive.com/news/crime/2019-01-07/six-illegal-aliens-guatemala-arrested-far-west-texas

ALPINE, TX-- Six illegal immigrants were taken into custody on Sunday morning in Brewster County.

The Brewster County Sheriff's department received a tip that there were illegals living in a house in Alpine.

When they got there they found the six Guatemalan immigrants and arrested them.

The suspects were in the country illegally and were turned over to immigration officials for prosecution and deportation.

.  

 

[HVAU 673]

I'm trying to find a good *ehemmm* concrete estimate of border wall funding demands, but it seems to vary according to source.

 

Here's one from USA today citing CBP for 18 billion over ten years.  https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj2u8zHkOzfAhWV14MKHZlqDYAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2F2018%2F01%2F05%2Ftrump-border-wall-proposal%2F1009584001%2F&psig=AOvVaw11OoZLdeAdl185sMlELWXg&ust=1547516022267062

 

[HVAU 673]

11 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Yes...you build the wall where natural barriers aren't available...that's kind of the point.  That has always been the proposal.    I really don't understand your argument.  

 

This gem hit the wire a few minutes ago...Spent the nite in Alpine 10 days ago on the way to hunting mule deer down on the border.  Pretty country...by the way, no walls out there...you can just walk across the river south of Alpine at Lajitas...and all across that area to Juarez...border checkpoints are 15 to 20 miles inside the US...not at the border....the picture below the article is a beautiful sunset down there....if you look closely and zoom on the white object in the top/middle of the photo; you can see some of the aerial surveillance manned there (a blimp; this is just outside Valentine; about 1.5 hours further West; ~12 miles off the border where I was standing).   Very good hunt by the way.....

 

https://sanangelolive.com/news/crime/2019-01-07/six-illegal-aliens-guatemala-arrested-far-west-texas

ALPINE, TX-- Six illegal immigrants were taken into custody on Sunday morning in Brewster County.

The Brewster County Sheriff's department received a tip that there were illegals living in a house in Alpine.

When they got there they found the six Guatemalan immigrants and arrested them.

The suspects were in the country illegally and were turned over to immigration officials for prosecution and deportation.

.  

 

Congrats on the hunt.  I've never been in that part of Texas, but I've been around Amarillo and on the Llano Estacado through the panhandle and into Oklahoma.  It's beautiful and desolate land.

One facet of the argument against the wall as a complete barrier are land rights, another is more effective technologies, another is the cost/benefit analysis. 

I do not believe we are at point of emergency with illegal immigration.  We've seen diminishing numbers for 18 years.  I also believe the funding for the wall can be better utilized elsewhere.

At the end of the day, my opinion is that both sides need budge.  If it's a zero sum game in this political scenario either your side or my side will win, but America as a whole will lose.

[japantiger 4,051]

Oops...apparently left pictures in that post I didn't intend to....the picture(s) with the car mirror in them were headed West; the hills in the distance rise on this side of the Rio Grande...you drive right by the installation where they fly the blimps.  The sunset picture with the blimp in the distance was taken just this side of those highlands on a lower ridgeline by my oldest son just after he killed his mulie.  

Yes, both sides need to give something....but it's 30 years past time to do something.

[WDavE 332]

Or

 

an estimated 11 million illegals to late.

[homersapien 11,367]

Trump rejects suggestion to allow government to reopen temporarily while talks continue

President Trump said Monday that he rejected a suggestion by Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) that he allow the government to temporarily reopen while continuing negotiations with Congress over funds for a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border.

“I did reject it,” Trump told reporters as he prepared to leave the White House en route to an event in New Orleans. “I want to get it solved. I don’t want to just delay it.”

His comments came on the 24th day of a partial government shutdown with no clear path forward for Trump and congressional Democrats, who have steadfastly resisted the president’s demands for $5.7 billion to fund his long-promised wall.

Last week, Trump floated the ideal of declaring a national emergency, a strategy that could allow him to bypass Congress and direct the military to start construction of the wall.

On Monday, Trump said he is still not prepared to go that route.

I’m not looking to call a national emergency,” Trump said. “This is so simple you shouldn’t have to.”

During a television appearance on Sunday, Graham, a Trump ally on most issues, suggested reopening the government for a few weeks and continuing to discuss border security.

If talks do not bear fruit, Graham said, the president could consider following through on his idea of calling a national emergency.

“I would urge him to open up the government for a short period of time, like three weeks, before he pulls the plug,” Graham said on “Fox News Sunday.” “See if we can get a deal. If we can’t at the end of three weeks, all bets are off. See if he can do it by himself through the emergency powers.”...................

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/trump-rejects-suggestion-to-allow-government-to-reopen-temporarily-while-talks-continue/2019/01/14/59219b5a-180a-11e9-9ebf-c5fed1b7a081_story.html?utm_term=.00c7351ebc7c

 

[homersapien 11,367]

Trump’s shutdown strategy is a wreck. Just ask Lindsey Graham.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/01/14/trumps-shutdown-strategy-is-wreck-just-ask-lindsey-graham/?utm_term=.4f91ed9e3c39

(excerpt)

If you want to see how chaotic and incoherent Trump’s shutdown “strategy” (increasingly it’s clear there is none), one need look only at his most obedient mouthpiece these days, Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C). Last week, he was hollering for an emergency declaration. On Sunday, he urged Trump to end the shutdown. No, really: “I would urge him to open up the government for a short period of time, like three weeks, before he pulls the plug,” he said on "Fox News Sunday." “See if we can get a deal. If we can’t at the end of three weeks, all bets are off. See if he can do it by himself through the emergency powers.” Umm, reopening the government is exactly what Democrats want, so maybe Graham could prevail upon his majority leader to put the House funding bills on the floor.

Meanwhile, Trump pingpongs back and forth on whether to include the "dreamers" in any deal. He insists it is Democrats who won’t negotiate, but last week he was the one storming out of a meeting (“bye-bye”). Such an arrangement would certainly make any declaration of “emergency” an utter farce.

What is evident here, as in so many cases, is that Trump has impulses and craves approval from his base. He doesn’t have the negotiating skills or the foresight to figure out how he will get what he and his base want. He therefore is left stomping his foot and demanding Democrats bail him out. To end this, McConnell might have to do what Graham suggests — vote on spending bills to reopen the government. That of course would mean a big fat loss for Trump, but I’m sure he’ll figure out some way to convince (or have Sean Hannity convince) his cult-followers it is all five-dimensional chess.

[SaltyTiger 7,792]

15 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Trump rejects suggestion to allow government to reopen temporarily while talks continue

http://dcwhispers.com/dems-party-with-lobbyists-in-puerto-rico-during-government-shutdown/#GIKX1OA2uuvw0zz7.97

Democrats don’t care about some federal workers not getting paid because of the partial government shutdown. Proof of that is the story out this weekend showing thirty Democrat members of Congress partying down in the sun and sand in Puerto Rico with more than 100 lobbyists. So when you hear a Democrat pretend to cry about the poor government workers who aren’t getting paid, remember the following pics and how they refuse to negotiated with President Trump to fund border security and re-open the government. The president is awaiting their return so a deal can be forged while Democrats would rather soak up the sun and get drunk and shmooze with lobbyists who are buying their votes.
Read more at http://dcwhispers.com/dems-party-with-lobbyists-in-puerto-rico-during-government-shutdown/#uIj5iXljzvcTsYK2.99

[homersapien 11,367]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

http://dcwhispers.com/dems-party-with-lobbyists-in-puerto-rico-during-government-shutdown/#GIKX1OA2uuvw0zz7.97

Democrats don’t care about some federal workers not getting paid because of the partial government shutdown. Proof of that is the story out this weekend showing thirty Democrat members of Congress partying down in the sun and sand in Puerto Rico with more than 100 lobbyists. So when you hear a Democrat pretend to cry about the poor government workers who aren’t getting paid, remember the following pics and how they refuse to negotiated with President Trump to fund border security and re-open the government. The president is awaiting their return so a deal can be forged while Democrats would rather soak up the sun and get drunk and shmooze with lobbyists who are buying their votes.
Read more at http://dcwhispers.com/dems-party-with-lobbyists-in-puerto-rico-during-government-shutdown/#uIj5iXljzvcTsYK2.99

That's merely your subjective inference whereas Trump "said Monday that he rejected a suggestion by Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) that he allow the government to temporarily reopen while continuing negotiations with Congress over funds for a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border."

Nice try though.

[SaltyTiger 7,792]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Nice try though.

President Trump is hard at work and concerned about the border issue and the shutdown. No chance of negotiating with a bunch of drunk democrats on a beach in Puerto Rico.    

[homersapien 11,367]

2 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

President Trump is hard at work and concerned about the border issue and the shutdown. No chance of negotiating with a bunch of drunk democrats on a beach in Puerto Rico.    

Yah, you betcha.  

He's on a roll!

[homersapien 11,367]

Why the White House is attacking Democrats for traveling to Puerto Rico, explained

With some help from Fox News.

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/14/18182346/trump-puerto-rico-democrats-explained

[SaltyTiger 7,792]

7 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Why the White House is attacking Democrats for traveling to Puerto Rico, explained

With some help from Fox News.

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/14/18182346/trump-puerto-rico-democrats-explained

 recovery from Hurricane Maria.

"Bovine Excrement!!"  Democrats went to report a poor recovery and blame it on President Trump......plus get drunk on beach during times of border crisis and a government shutdown. 

[homersapien 11,367]

20 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

 recovery from Hurricane Maria.

"Bovine Excrement!!"  Democrats went to report a poor recovery and blame it on President Trump......plus get drunk on beach during times of border crisis and a government shutdown. 

You show total contempt about what happened to Puerto Rico. You  -of all people - should know better.

[SaltyTiger 7,792]

12 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You show total contempt about what happened to Puerto Rico. You  -of all people - should know better.

I have no contempt about what happened in Puerto Rico Brother Homer. 

[japantiger 4,051]

7 hours ago, homersapien said:

That's merely your subjective inference whereas Trump "said Monday that he rejected a suggestion by Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) that he allow the government to temporarily reopen while continuing negotiations with Congress over funds for a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border."

Nice try though.

Because when he asked Pelosi face to face in the WH if he did that; would she negotiate funding for the wall?....she said no....so no point in reopening the gov't.  It's not hard.... 

[homersapien 11,367]

12 hours ago, japantiger said:

Because when he asked Pelosi face to face in the WH if he did that; would she negotiate funding for the wall?....she said no....so no point in reopening the gov't.  It's not hard.... 

Pelosi didn't close the government, Trump did.

And who in hell knows what Trump meant by "the wall" in the first place?

Elections have consequences.  Trump is not a dictator.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Dems now refuse to even discuss any solution. This is no longer about a wall, it about power.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democrats-boycott-white-house-lunch-meeting

[homersapien 11,367]

On 1/12/2019 at 1:34 AM, AUFAN78 said:

Well.......

Border Patrol agents say they can’t be much clearer: They want more walls along the U.S.-Mexico border.

In a survey conducted by the National Border Patrol Council, the agents’ union, they overwhelmingly supported adding a “wall system” in strategic locations, embracing President Trump’s argument that it will boost their ability to nab or deter would-be illegal immigrants.....

 

 

Well...., let's explore that claim.

Why Did the Border Patrol Union Switch Its Position on the Wall?

The NBPC once opposed “wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border.”

(excerpt)

Below is the whole section on “border fences and walls,” as preserved on the Internet Archive before it was scrubbed sometime after the union president, Brandon Judd, visited the White House. The union is known as the NBPC, or the National Border Patrol Council. NBPS stands for National Border Patrol Strategy; the union argues that the overarching strategy needs to change. The archived website says:

The NBPC disagrees with wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border as a means of curtailing illegal entries into the United States. However, as long as we continue to operate under the current NBPS and ignore the problem that is causing illegal immigration, we realize fences and walls are essential.

• Walls and fences are temporary solutions that focus on the symptom (illegal immigration) rather than the problem (employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens).

• Walls and fences are only a speed bump. People who want to come to the United States to obtain employment will continue to go over, under, and around the walls and fences that are constructed.

• Walls and fences will undoubtedly result in an increase in fraudulent documents and smuggling through the Ports of Entry.

• Walls and fences do not solve the issue of people entering the country legally and staying beyond the date they are required to leave the country, a problem which will undoubtedly increase as more walls and fences are constructed.

• The NBPC position regarding walls and fences is not due to a concern of losing our jobs if fences and walls are built. On the contrary, the NBPC realizes that walls and fences require just as much manpower to protect them. Border Patrol Agents witness what happens to walls and fences when there are not enough Border Patrol agents to protect them.

Read the full piece at: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/trump-nbpc/580237/

 

[AUFAN78 3,894]

On 1/15/2019 at 1:07 PM, homersapien said:

 

Well...., let's explore that claim.

Why Did the Border Patrol Union Switch Its Position on the Wall?

The NBPC once opposed “wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border.”

(excerpt)

Below is the whole section on “border fences and walls,” as preserved on the Internet Archive before it was scrubbed sometime after the union president, Brandon Judd, visited the White House. The union is known as the NBPC, or the National Border Patrol Council. NBPS stands for National Border Patrol Strategy; the union argues that the overarching strategy needs to change. The archived website says:

The NBPC disagrees with wasting taxpayer money on building fences and walls along the border as a means of curtailing illegal entries into the United States. However, as long as we continue to operate under the current NBPS and ignore the problem that is causing illegal immigration, we realize fences and walls are essential.

• Walls and fences are temporary solutions that focus on the symptom (illegal immigration) rather than the problem (employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens).

• Walls and fences are only a speed bump. People who want to come to the United States to obtain employment will continue to go over, under, and around the walls and fences that are constructed.

• Walls and fences will undoubtedly result in an increase in fraudulent documents and smuggling through the Ports of Entry.

• Walls and fences do not solve the issue of people entering the country legally and staying beyond the date they are required to leave the country, a problem which will undoubtedly increase as more walls and fences are constructed.

• The NBPC position regarding walls and fences is not due to a concern of losing our jobs if fences and walls are built. On the contrary, the NBPC realizes that walls and fences require just as much manpower to protect them. Border Patrol Agents witness what happens to walls and fences when there are not enough Border Patrol agents to protect them.

Read the full piece at: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/trump-nbpc/580237/

 

Asked about the seeming contradiction by Politico, the union leader explained that the old language reflected the position of bygone leadership, adding that the page was kept up for years because the union didn’t want to hide from its earlier stance. “But because it continually gets brought up,” he said, “we made the decision to take it down.”

So basically what we have here is an opinion piece, that is not factual.  Not at all surprising. Do better homes. 

 

[homersapien 11,367]

3 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

Asked about the seeming contradiction by Politico, the union leader explained that the old language reflected the position of bygone leadership, adding that the page was kept up for years because the union didn’t want to hide from its earlier stance. “But because it continually gets brought up,” he said, “we made the decision to take it down.”

So basically what we have here is an opinion piece, that is not factual.  Not at all surprising. Do better homes.