Your beliefs on Abortion...

[McLoofus 35,182]

54 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Dang man. Had no idea about this. How awful. Can't imagine having to make that decision, and knowing that it would be heartbreaking either way. I'm so sorry, but so happy that you and your wife have been able to create the wonderful family that you have today! 

Thanks, fam. Obviously not something one interrupts a tight Gus bashing sesh for. And something that I wrestle with talking about. But it occurs to me that there might be purpose in it.

Thanks again.

[triangletiger 1,599]

One thing that makes this discussion a bit more murky is that some forms of birth control are abortifacient, rather than prophylactic.  That is, the birth control method works by causing a miscarriage after the egg is fertilized rather than preventing the egg from becoming fertilized.  It seems to me that those who are opposed to abortion at any stage of development would also have to be opposed to abortifacient methods of birth control in order to remain morally consistent.

[Auburn06 76]

On one hand I am against it on the other...I feel it's not my nor the governments job to police what other people choose to do. It is between them & God.

 

 

#StopHavingKidsYouDon'tWant

[triangletiger 1,599]

19 hours ago, Auburn06 said:

On one hand I am against it on the other...I feel it's not my nor the governments job to police what other people choose to do. It is between them & God.

 

 

#StopHavingKidsYouDon'tWant

Why not allow infanticide, then?

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, triangletiger said:

Why not allow infanticide, then?

Because then it is no a woman making a choice about her own body. 

[triangletiger 1,599]

25 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Because then it is no a woman making a choice about her own body. 

So before the baby is born it is part of the woman's body?

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, triangletiger said:

So before the baby is born it is part of the woman's body?

I answered your initial question. I'm guessing you're not satisfied with the answer, but I won't be providing anything further. 

 

[triangletiger 1,599]

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I answered your initial question. I'm guessing you're not satisfied with the answer, but I won't be providing anything further. 

 

ok

[Auburn06 76]

9 hours ago, triangletiger said:

Why not allow infanticide, then?

no.. i am against abortion 100% but i dont wanna deal with the issue so i am like ..."not my business" 

 

 

[Gowebb11 9,313]

First, I’m not sure why rape and incest is always presented as separate entities. I’ve always felt like if incest is happening, it’s rape.  To the original question I believe abortion is an unfortunate necessary evil, and we should make every effort to minimize it through education and birth control. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for causing or sponsoring one. But I hate the idea of a child being brought into the world to be abused, beaten, and neglected. And that happens to far too many children. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

First, I’m not sure why rape and incest is always presented as separate entities. I’ve always felt like if incest is happening, it’s rape.  To the original question I believe abortion is an unfortunate necessary evil, and we should make every effort to minimize it through education and birth control. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for causing or sponsoring one. But I hate the idea of a child being brought into the world to be abused, beaten, and neglected. And that happens to far too many children. 

Abused, beaten, neglected, compromised health preventing any chance at anything resembling an average- much less fulfilling- life... Many of the people being all self righteous on this, like so many issues, have never actually come face to face with it. And the constant assumption that the mother is acting selfishly, casually or irresponsibly is shameful.

Good point about the terminology. A phrase like "adverse pregnancy" or whatever might be better. 

[Grumps 3,704]

I see abortion as a bad thing 100% of the time, but I can't say it is always the worst thing. Obviously, it is really complicated. I want EVERYONE to have as much freedom as possible. That includes women and including future humans. The problem is that the more freedom you give one, the less the other has. I really don't see how anyone could favor an abortion after 24 weeks unless the baby/fetus has a terminal condition. I don't know of any medical condition where an abortion is necessary to save the life of the host after 24 weeks.

It seems a little odd to say that a viable fetus is solely the property of the host and she can do with it as she pleases.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Interesting read on the Jewish take regarding abortion.  Yahoo link but article was written in USA Today.

Had a similar conversation a few months ago with a Jewish scholar and rabbi.  He said many of these same things.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-jewish-people-support-progressive-235401809.html

[alexava 6,973]

On 7/27/2019 at 3:01 PM, Grumps said:

I see abortion as a bad thing 100% of the time, but I can't say it is always the worst thing. Obviously, it is really complicated. I want EVERYONE to have as much freedom as possible. That includes women and including future humans. The problem is that the more freedom you give one, the less the other has. I really don't see how anyone could favor an abortion after 24 weeks unless the baby/fetus has a terminal condition. I don't know of any medical condition where an abortion is necessary to save the life of the host after 24 weeks.

It seems a little odd to say that a viable fetus is solely the property of the host and she can do with it as she pleases.

Pretty much agree. I’m not a dr or woman but as rare as they are conditions do arrive at or after 24 weeks. We could make exceptions for them and limit terms to 20 weeks or less .  We just need people to compromise logically. THEN LEAVE IT ALONE AND MOVE ON FOR THE GOOD OF EVERYTHING ELSE THAT MATTERS.

 

[kevon67 2,368]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:27 AM, McLoofus said:

Abused, beaten, neglected, compromised health preventing any chance at anything resembling an average- much less fulfilling- life... Many of the people being all self righteous on this, like so many issues, have never actually come face to face with it. And the constant assumption that the mother is acting selfishly, casually or irresponsibly is shameful.

Good point about the terminology. A phrase like "adverse pregnancy" or whatever might be better. 

Like assisted suicide........its only when you have to watch a loved one suffer daily do you actually look at both sides........in my opinion. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

On 7/27/2019 at 4:01 PM, Grumps said:

I see abortion as a bad thing 100% of the time, but I can't say it is always the worst thing. Obviously, it is really complicated. I want EVERYONE to have as much freedom as possible. That includes women and including future humans. The problem is that the more freedom you give one, the less the other has. I really don't see how anyone could favor an abortion after 24 weeks unless the baby/fetus has a terminal condition. I don't know of any medical condition where an abortion is necessary to save the life of the host after 24 weeks.

It seems a little odd to say that a viable fetus is solely the property of the host and she can do with it as she pleases.

Love that first sentence. Spot on. The decision can be both correct and very, very bad.

[DKW 86 7,418]

On 7/27/2019 at 4:01 PM, Brad_ATX said:

Interesting read on the Jewish take regarding abortion.  Yahoo link but article was written in USA Today.

Had a similar conversation a few months ago with a Jewish scholar and rabbi.  He said many of these same things.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-jewish-people-support-progressive-235401809.html

1) A few liberal Jews do not represent ALL JEWS. 
2) To have a Jew refer to the OT as Poetic Language...I cant even begin to dismantle that really odd phraseology in this forum. There have been LIBRARIES filled with books all with varying interpretations of those same passages. 
3) To present the views of what, half a dozen Jews as THE VIEW of Jewish people is beyond SPECULATION. 
4) To then add just pure insult to injury and say that 83% of JEWS SUPPORT Abortion Rights? Really? Abortion Rights at what stage? What are the terms? At what limits? What are the breakdowns by trimesters, weeks, months, source of the pregnanacy? Nope the author gloms all over that does the very intellectually dishonest thing and combines them all together for a Specualtive Completely Ambiguous Term of Supporting "Abortion Rights." 
5) I guess that ANY JEW that is ProLife of the Baby is now an ORTHODOX Jew in the grossly undefined hap-hazard labeling system they choose to use. 

In short, this was an extraordinarily poorly written and poorly executed piece of SPECULATION.  Brad, i am shocked and saddened that you would even bring this here. This is something Homey or Tex would be more likely to show here. 

Disappointing...

Must be doing something right, already got a FACEPALM!!!!!

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

32 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

1) A few liberal Jews do not represent ALL JEWS. 
2) To have a Jew refer to the OT as Poetic Language...I cant even begin to dismantle that really odd phraseology in this forum. There have been LIBRARIES filled with books all with varying interpretations of those same passages. 
3) To present the views of what, half a dozens Jews as THE VIEW of Jewish people is beyond SPECULATION. 
4) To then add just pure insult to injury and say that 83% of JEWS SUPPORT Abortion Rights? Really? Abortion Rights at what stage? What are the terms? At what limits? What are the breakdowns by tirmesters, weeks, months, source of the pregnanacy? Nope the author gloms all over that does the very intellectually dishonest thing and combines them all together for a Specualtive Completely Ambiguous Term of Supporting "Abortion Rights." 
5) I guess that ANY JEW that is ProLife of the Baby is now an ORTHODOX Jew in the grossly undefined hap-hazard labeling system they choose to use. 

In short, this was an extraordinarily poorly written and poorly executed piece of SPECULATION.  Brad, i am shocked and saddened that you would even bring this here. This is something Homey or Tex would be more likely to show here. 

Disappointing...

Must be doing something right, already got a FACEPALM!!!!!

DKW, I am shocked and saddened that you think me posting one article means that I take it as gospel or as the sole view.

Also, just because it may not back up your view doesn't mean it was poorly written.  It was actually quite well written and presented in a manner meant to show a different side that often doesn't get spoken of.  And it's not "speculation" as you put it.  It's an alternative viewpoint regarding a very complex matter.

Also worth noting that Israel not only has legal abortion, but that it's relatively easy to access.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/As-abortion-fight-heats-up-in-US-termination-in-Israel-easily-accessible-589923

One other lesson here: make your points about the article and move on.  No need to expound who you think I am.

[kevon67 2,368]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:27 AM, McLoofus said:

Abused, beaten, neglected, compromised health preventing any chance at anything resembling an average- much less fulfilling- life... Many of the people being all self righteous on this, like so many issues, have never actually come face to face with it. And the constant assumption that the mother is acting selfishly, casually or irresponsibly is shameful.

Good point about the terminology. A phrase like "adverse pregnancy" or whatever might be better. 

Also people dont realize what adopted children go through.......even if adopted by loving and caring parents and especially if they already have children........I say this because pro lifers seem to think adoption is flawless.......especially"Christians".

[DKW 86 7,418]

13 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

DKW, I am shocked and saddened that you think me posting one article means that I take it as gospel or as the sole view.

Also, just because it may not back up your view doesn't mean it was poorly written.  It was actually quite well written and presented in a manner meant to show a different side that often doesn't get spoken of.  And it's not "speculation" as you put it.  It's an alternative viewpoint regarding a very complex matter.

Also worth noting that Israel not only has legal abortion, but that it's relatively easy to access.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/As-abortion-fight-heats-up-in-US-termination-in-Israel-easily-accessible-589923

One other lesson here: make your points about the article and move on.  No need to expound who you think I am.

That was a horribly written article. Glommed over real issue with nithing more than Speculative crap. Misrepresented facts, etc.

It wasnt gospel, as an exercise it wasnt even good discourse. It was drivel.

[triangletiger 1,599]

1 hour ago, kevon67 said:

Also people dont realize what adopted children go through.......even if adopted by loving and caring parents and especially if they already have children........I say this because pro lifers seem to think adoption is flawless.......especially"Christians".

I'm not sure I follow your logic.  Adopted children have a tough road; therefore, they would have been better off being aborted?  

[kevon67 2,368]

1 minute ago, triangletiger said:

I'm not sure I follow your logic.  Adopted children have a tough road; therefore, they would have been better off being aborted?  

Were you adopted?

 

[triangletiger 1,599]

2 minutes ago, kevon67 said:

Were you adopted?

 

I was not.  Nor was I aborted.

[kevon67 2,368]

1 minute ago, triangletiger said:

I was not.  Nor was I aborted.

Had you been adopted you may have wish you were aborted.

[triangletiger 1,599]

Just now, kevon67 said:

Had you been adopted you may have wish you were aborted.

Perhaps, but I suspect that if we were to poll people who were adopted, the vast majority would have preferred being adopted (i.e., alive) than aborted.  The desire/urge to live is strong, even in horrible circumstances.