The real redistribution of wealth

[Mikey 16,545]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

Glad you didnt look at the sources cited in the video and I bet you didnt even watch the video. 

No, I did not watch the video, but I did at least look for "The Truth Denied". Wealth distribution is not something that worries me. People that are motivated to move up can do so. Those that are not motivated or are simply lazy will sit around and gripe about "rich people". Maybe in the feudal days there was small opportunity to advance, but these days it's there for those willing to apply themselves and make the sacrifices necessary to achieve success.

[japantiger 4,051]

15 minutes ago, auburn41 said:

Well Sir, the fantasy world that I live in was to earn an academic scholarship to AU, earn an engineering degree, work in the military, work as a defense contractor and eventually move into electronic sales (computer chips). I have earned more at every stop along the way. Like I said, if you make good decisions (don’t get involved with drugs, don’t break the law, don’t get a girlfriend pregnant, try to stay in as good a shape as possible, and most importantly, don’t live beyond your means or stated a better way.....accumulate as little debt as possible) you can move up classes more easily in the US than anywhere else. 

From Treasury.gov...link below...last report I find on the topic... and is consistent with the experiences most call out on here...to the extent that we create barriers to mobility; or shift them overseas, we do long term damage...

There was considerable income mobility of individuals in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period as over half of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile over this period.

• Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005.

• Among those with the very highest incomes in 1996 – the top 1/100 of 1 percent – only 25 percent remained in this group in 2005. Moreover, the median real income of these taxpayers declined over this period.

• The degree of mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior decade (1987 through 1996).

• Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the period from 1996 to 2005. Median incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation. The real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period. In addition, the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the higher income groups.

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/Report-Income-Mobility-2008.pdf

[homersapien 11,352]

17 hours ago, japantiger said:

I think this is probably a more representative analysis and I've seen this used by Fed governors in discussing the subject.  Source and data in the link as well.  

All classes of income increase...  Lower income levels have experienced bigger gains than the middle class.  And as expected, the top experiences the largest gains.  The curves dramatically diverge in the 1994 and don't come back.  This was the same time that programs like NAFTA (1994) and the China MFN exec orders (1993) went into place permanently giving China MFN status ....at that point; the US middle class was doomed....and China's middle class exploded (from ~80m at the turn of the century to over 600m  people today).   

\https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statistics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality

Is that adjusted for inflation?

78-79% doesn't sound all that great over a 35 year period.

[homersapien 11,352]

45 minutes ago, auburn41 said:

Well Sir, the fantasy world that I live in was to earn an academic scholarship to AU, earn an engineering degree, work in the military, work as a defense contractor and eventually move into electronic sales (computer chips). I have earned more at every stop along the way. Like I said, if you make good decisions (don’t get involved with drugs, don’t break the law, don’t get a girlfriend pregnant, try to stay in as good a shape as possible, and most importantly, don’t live beyond your means or stated a better way.....accumulate as little debt as possible) you can move up classes more easily in the US than anywhere else. 

None of which proves we don't have a systemic problem with our political/economic system. 

 

[japantiger 4,051]

There will always be a wealth/income distribution.  Just like any process/system; there will be a distribution and it's always the top 20% drives 80% of anything.  "Inequality" is a political term .  It is meant to 1) pit groups against each other and get 2) politicians elected 3) to jobs that pay them 3x the national average income and 4) thus making them "unequal" by putting them in the evil top 5% that they rail on about when they talk about "inequality"... You can't and won't solve a problem that your very existence thrives on.

Income distribution is also not an "either/or" or all in proposition.  I can be for free market capitalism, wealth accumulation, income mobility, a strong middle class, lifting all incomes and reducing poverty all at the same time.  

World history shows no other system has increased wealth, lifted people out of poverty and/or exploded the middle class like US free market capitalism.  It is patently illogical to propose tearing down the system that fundamentally transformed the wealth of the planet.  

Many on here site the same experience; I started out in a  North Alabama town of less than 1,500; 69 in my hi school graduating class.  More cows and chickens than people in our town.  The last 3 years of his working career; my father put cardboard in the bottom of his shoes to cover the holes rather than buy another pair because according to my Mom "we can't afford them Carolyn; there are bills to pay" (she recounted this story to me thru tears the day Dad died).   

I didn't know I was poor.  And we all know I wasn't.  I had 2 parents that loved me and sacrificed everything to ensure I had 3 squares, a roof over my head, got educated (or caught hell),  loved my country, was in church twice a week, said grace over every meal and learned that my lot in life was to be a God-fearing productive member of society.  And when I wasn't in the company of my parents; the other adults in my life felt similarly and reinforced it.  

There's no tax or government policy devised by the political whores and bureaucrats in any capital that will address the income gaps created by the disintegration of the family, schools that don't prepare students to get jobs, politicians who believe their birthright is to lord over us while making 3x "us"; and a society that kills 25% of all children under the misnomer of "health" when we all know it's really about convenience.  

As for the "uber-rich", more power to them.  I personally don't like a lot of Bill Gates politics; but I respect the hell out of him for giving his wealth away to support the causes he chooses (and as a business man).  I would not want his money being turned over to the political whore class.  With Gates deciding where his wealth goes; it will actually have an impact.  

Importing more poor into this country will do nothing to help those already here....simple math; it will make inequality greater...don't talk about inequality while supporting millions of more poor flooding the border with the support of the evil 5% who rail about inequality.  

Until we address real issues; family, faith, responsibility,; all the inequality talk is just envy and political posturing.  

 

[I_M4_AU 7,762]

After reading all of this I have a serious question.  For those that have children or grandchildren; what do you try to instill in their thoughts going forward?  Is it even worth trying to get an education and just accept they can’t improve their lot in life and give up?  Or get your education, make good decisions and live your life the best you can?

[japantiger 4,051]

My kids are raised the same way I was ... Love God, Love your Family, Love your Work.  This leads to good decisions which leads to opportunity.  

[McLoofus 35,182]

25 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

After reading all of this I have a serious question.  For those that have children or grandchildren; what do you try to instill in their thoughts going forward?  Is it even worth trying to get an education and just accept they can’t improve their lot in life and give up?  Or get your education, make good decisions and live your life the best you can?

The latter, of course. Nothing in this conversation has suggested to me in any way that anyone who has participated in it doesn't see value in education and hard work. Not sure how that entered your mind.

Most of us are likely quite fortunate that our efforts in life have by and large been rewarded and we've at least been able to sustain a comfortable life by not screwing it up.

Many are not similarly rewarded. The "if one can, all can" logic put forth by some is profoundly flawed. I get why the rare, truly self made man might be low on empathy but the fact is many who consider themselves such are deluded and refuse to acknowledge their immense good fortune along the way.

Also, I can't help but wonder why some of the hardcore capitalists on here who clearly want to be in that 1% aren't? Didn't work hard enough? Opted out of the $10 million major? Selflessly dedicated yourselves to the fight for the rights of others to grow filthier rich instead? 

 

[DKW 86 7,410]

2 hours ago, auburn41 said:

Well Sir, the fantasy world that I live in was to earn an academic scholarship to AU, earn an engineering degree, work in the military, work as a defense contractor and eventually move into electronic sales (computer chips). I have earned more at every stop along the way. Like I said, if you make good decisions (don’t get involved with drugs, don’t break the law, don’t get a girlfriend pregnant, try to stay in as good a shape as possible, and most importantly, don’t live beyond your means or stated a better way.....accumulate as little debt as possible) you can move up classes more easily in the US than anywhere else. 

In General Terms, you described the pathway that many have travelled...The results are not guaranteed however. You can play by the rules and still lose your rear end in one bad business decision, a car wreck, etc. You are talking about the same path that 95% of us were taught. However, the results are not the same. Add in race, being female, etc and the results are much less certain.

[DKW 86 7,410]

2 hours ago, Mikey said:

No, I did not watch the video, but I did at least look for "The Truth Denied". Wealth distribution is not something that worries me. People that are motivated to move up can do so. Those that are not motivated or are simply lazy will sit around and gripe about "rich people". Maybe in the feudal days there was small opportunity to advance, but these days it's there for those willing to apply themselves and make the sacrifices necessary to achieve success.

So, when did you become part of the 1% Wonder Boy? Since it is so easy, I guess you must have achieved fairly early in life...

[DKW 86 7,410]

55 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

After reading all of this I have a serious question.  For those that have children or grandchildren; what do you try to instill in their thoughts going forward?  Is it even worth trying to get an education and just accept they can’t improve their lot in life and give up?  Or get your education, make good decisions and live your life the best you can?

Work hard, Train hard, Do your absolute best in Shcool. Your earnings are based on you and your work habits. 

Real happiness should come from doing a job you love, that also benefits others. 

God, Family, Friends, etc. Also be prepared for the occasional blindside. You know, where everything you counted on goes up in smoke in an afternoon. 

Plpaying by these rules no longer guarantees anything anymore however. 

[I_M4_AU 7,762]

26 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Not sure how that entered your mind.

It entered my mind because of the responses to this thread.  Some say to get ahead and improve you’re lot in life, you have to work hard, make good decisions and be lucky and others say they are living in a fantasy world.

 

32 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Many are not similarly rewarded. The "if one can, all can" logic put forth by some is profoundly flawed. I get why the rare, truly self made man might be low on empathy but the fact is many who consider themselves such are deluded and refuse to acknowledge their immense good fortune along the way.

The “if one can, all can” logic is why Auburn University signs 4 and 5* athletes every season.  It’s called hope, if we divest ourself of hope, you may as well sit on the porch and rock you’re life away, no matter what age.  I try to re-invent myself every so often just to see if I can.  I also wake up everyday and sight thinks I am grateful for, it makes my day a lot better.

38 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Also, I can't help but wonder why some of the hardcore capitalists on here who clearly want to be in that 1% aren't? Didn't work hard enough? Opted out of the $10 million major? Selflessly dedicated yourselves to the fight for the rights of others to grow filthier rich instead? 

I don’t think they have given up, they’re still trying. Hope is a great thing.

[I_M4_AU 7,762]

22 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Work hard, Train hard, Do your absolute best in Shcool. Your earnings are based on you and your work habits. 

Real happiness should come from doing a job you love, that also benefits others. 

God, Family, Friends, etc. Also be prepared for the occasional blindside. You know, where everything you counted on goes up in smoke in an afternoon. 

Plpaying by these rules no longer guarantees anything anymore however. 

I like the real happiness statement.  The one thing my wife and I have always stressed to our kids is find something you enjoy doing and make it your passion (and life’s work).

Playing be the rules was never guaranteed. I know I thought so until my company, with the vote of the union, got rid of our defined benefit pension.  You just have to pick yourself up and follow on, giving up is not an option.

I’m sure all parents teach this to our kids at an early age.  Every parent that has been told one of there decisions were wrong by their kids has used the phrase “that’s not fare” and has automatically come back with “life isn’t fare”.  We just don’t realize it until it hits us up side of the head.

[auburn41 492]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

None of which proves we don't have a systemic problem with our political/economic system. 

 

Please highlight the words in my post that caused you to INFER that I believe our system is perfect?

[auburn41 492]

45 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

In General Terms, you described the pathway that many have travelled...The results are not guaranteed however. You can play by the rules and still lose your rear end in one bad business decision, a car wreck, etc. You are talking about the same path that 95% of us were taught. However, the results are not the same. Add in race, being female, etc and the results are much less certain.

Please highlight the words in my post where I stated it was guaranteed?  I think I even said you have to have "some luck."  But I would rather follow the pathway described here in the US than say in country in Europe, South/Central America, Africa, or even Asia.  

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

22 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It entered my mind because of the responses to this thread.  Some say to get ahead and improve you’re lot in life, you have to work hard, make good decisions and be lucky and others say they are living in a fantasy world.

 

The “if one can, all can” logic is why Auburn University signs 4 and 5* athletes every season.  It’s called hope, if we divest ourself of hope, you may as well sit on the porch and rock you’re life away, no matter what age.  I try to re-invent myself every so often just to see if I can.  I also wake up everyday and sight thinks I am grateful for, it makes my day a lot better.

I don’t think they have given up, they’re still trying. Hope is a great thing.

That's just the thing. Hope is very very different than the guarantees that some others are making in this thread. And what they are also willfully oblivious to are the factors that stand in the way of hope becoming reality.

[McLoofus 35,182]

16 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I like the real happiness statement.  The one thing my wife and I have always stressed to our kids is find something you enjoy doing and make it your passion (and life’s work).

Playing be the rules was never guaranteed. I know I thought so until my company, with the vote of the union, got rid of our defined benefit pension.  You just have to pick yourself up and follow on, giving up is not an option.

I’m sure all parents teach this to our kids at an early age.  Every parent that has been told one of there decisions were wrong by their kids has used the phrase “that’s not fare” and has automatically come back with “life isn’t fare”.  We just don’t realize it until it hits us up side of the head.

Except some, such as POTUS, are no longer susceptible to being hit over the head. Which would be fine if they were not able to use that to dictate policy in a manner that does not actually benefit their fellow-citizens in any way. That is what Tex was getting at with not allowing politicians to become lobbyists once they are out of office and such. That is also a motivation behind campaign finance reform.

There is not a French Revolution being suggested here as far as I can tell. 

 

[japantiger 4,051]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

That's just the thing. Hope is very very different than the guarantees that some others are making in this thread. And what they are also willfully oblivious to are the factors that stand in the way of hope becoming reality.

I can guarantee that if you don't get an education, don't work hard, don't make good decisions,  etc., good things won't happen.  There are no guarantees in life; let's ground this in reality.   Preparation and opportunity; without the 1st; the 2nd will be wasted.   With the 1st; you can create the 2nd.    

[homersapien 11,352]

1 hour ago, auburn41 said:

Please highlight the words in my post that caused you to INFER that I believe our system is perfect?

Like several others on this forum, the only response to the fact our political/economic system has become progressively more biased toward the already priveledged is to cite indivdual personal anecdotes about how you or someone else was able to succeed "without" such advantages.

Such responses typically ignore or disregard the advantages you actually did have, or even just your good luck.

They do not reflect the overall state of our system as illustrated by statistical trends.

 

 

[homersapien 11,352]

2 hours ago, auburn41 said:

Please highlight the words in my post where I stated it was guaranteed?  I think I even said you have to have "some luck."  But I would rather follow the pathway described here in the US than say in country in Europe, South/Central America, Africa, or even Asia.  

 

You make it sound as if the US "pathway" is, always has been, and always will be constant and is

 

26 minutes ago, japantiger said:

I can guarantee that if you don't get an education, don't work hard, don't make good decisions,  etc., good things won't happen.  There are no guarantees in life; let's ground this in reality.   Preparation and opportunity; without the 1st; the 2nd will be wasted.   With the 1st; you can create the 2nd.    

All true.

I think the discussion is more about how to make an education available to those who aren't already privileged enough to be guaranteed one.

 

[auburn41 492]

36 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Like several others on this forum, the only response to the fact our political/economic system has become progressively more biased toward the already priveledged is to cite indivdual personal anecdotes about how you or someone else was able to succeed "without" such advantages.

Such responses typically ignore or disregard the advantages you actually did have, or even just your good luck.

They do not reflect the overall state of our system as illustrated by statistical trends.

 

 

In other words, you inferred out of thin air, as is typical of you on this forum.  My story is not unique in any way. Millions of US citizens have had the same journey and I expect millions more will continue that. Our system is not perfect but perfect does not exist. 

[DKW 86 7,410]

Folks, I dont mean to sound like an ass, but some of us may have just lost our job and/or maybe our career tho being rated the best in our position in a company of 4000. 

If I am singing the Internationale' a little too loudly, it is because I know first hand that a lifetime of working your ass off, and playing by the rules can go up in smoke in an afternoon. 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

8 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Folks, I dont mean to sound like an ass, but some of us may have just lost our job and/or maybe our career tho being rated the best in our position in a company of 4000. 

If I am singing the Internationale' a little too loudly, it is because I know first hand that a lifetime of working your ass off, and playing by the rules can go up in smoke in an afternoon. 

 

Really sorry to hear that, DKW.

 

[DKW 86 7,410]

5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Really sorry to hear that, DKW.

Jesus Christ is Lord and God is still on the throne...

[Auburn85 432]

Not all, but I'd imagine a percentage of rich people are living off of capital gains and not an income tax based occupation.

The alternative minimum tax was passed when the top bracket paid a 70% federal income tax

Purchasing power and cost of living are big factors

I would argue that today's minimum wage has less purchasing power than the minimum wage of 20-25 years ago. for example the price of gas, college, healthcare, health insurance

People that are fortunate enough to have money in a savings account lose money in the long run because of low interest rates. It wasn't terribly long ago  people could put money away into a Certificate of Deposit with a double digit interest rate or at least get a healthy rate of return. Now, it seems the only place to get a decent rate of return is to play the stock market.