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The Kyle Kashuv-Harvard controversy, explained


Auburn85

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https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/17/18682101/kyle-kashuv-harvard-parkland

 

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Zack  Beauchamp

 

A teen conservative activist got in trouble for past racist comments. Then he lost his Harvard admission over it — and ignited a national controversy.

 

more at the link

 

 

 

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I wouldn’t have let him in either. His comments were wwwaaayyy over the top. 

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10 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

I wouldn’t have let him in either. His comments were wwwaaayyy over the top. 

So, in this world we live in, there is no way to change a person’s mindset through education?   Does this mean what he believes when he was 16 will haunt him for the rest of his life?  When I was raising teenagers they would say stuff just to get a reaction, most adults understand this.

If his statements were not outed by people who did not have his best interest at heart, he would have attended Harvard without a problem.  I understand he apologized shortly after the statements was made.  I guess it wasn’t enough for Harvard to overlook? 

Is this the new standard for the world?  The people that outed him are disingenuous at best.

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4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

So, in this world we live in, there is no way to change a person’s mindset through education?   Does this mean what he believes when he was 16 will haunt him for the rest of his life?  When I was raising teenagers they would say stuff just to get a reaction, most adults understand this.

If his statements were not outed by people who did not have his best interest at heart, he would have attended Harvard without a problem.  I understand he apologized shortly after the statements was made.  I guess it wasn’t enough for Harvard to overlook? 

Is this the new standard for the world?  The people that outed him are disingenuous at best.

"What he believed when he was 16" was, what - 18 to 24 months ago?

And why should Harvard take him?   It's not like they have a shortage of qualified applicants who haven't expressed blatant racism within the last two years.  I don't blame them at all.

While I am willing to entertain the idea he was just being more outrageous than serious, I'd like to see that reputed "apology" before I gave that notion any weight.

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So, in this world we live in, there is no way to change a person’s mindset through education?  

That's not the Harvard admissions department's job.

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Does this mean what he believes when he was 16 will haunt him for the rest of his life?

It cost him admission into our country's most prestigious university, so it's fair to say it already has.

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When I was raising teenagers they would say stuff just to get a reaction, most adults understand this.

I have been having a conversation a lot with my oldest lately. I found her little Discord server and discovered racist memes being bounced around in it a few weeks back. To her credit, she wasn't an active participant in that, but all of her friends and her erstwhile boyfriend (long story) were.

She will be a high school student in two months. College admissions departments will weigh everything they can find about in her background, and this includes online behavior. This stuff has a way of finding the light of day at the worst possible time too.

Told her there's not such thing as privacy when it comes to social media. Anything ever typed on a screen can be screen-capped and shared.

I know for a fact that she didn't take me seriously after I first confronted her on it. I found some further correspondence with her erstwhile boyfriend in which she was whipping out the same excuses Mr. Kashuv did in his apology. To paraphrase, "I told my dad it's about irony! You weren't actually being racist!"

And we so talked about it further later, where I informed her of popehat's rule of goats (in a more PG phrasing with her than the actual rule): Even if you're only ******* goats ironically, you're still a goat ****er.

And it may seem unserious to her now, it isn't. Racist language is still a grievous harm, even when used when you assume it's private. It could cost her a job, a spot in the school of her choice, her reputation.

Welcome to the real world, where actions have consequences.

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If his statements were not outed by people who did not have his best interest at heart, he would have attended Harvard without a problem.

That's not Harvard's problem.

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 I understand he apologized shortly after the statements was made.

Good for him. Hope he meant it.

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I guess it wasn’t enough for Harvard to overlook?

Harvard has no obligation to take him, and they have rescinded plenty of prior offers with less high profile applicants for similar behavior. It's a highly competitive school. If they have a choice between two kids with similar CVs, but one of which carries baggage, which should they take

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Is this the new standard for the world?

What? Actions have consequences?

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 The people that outed him are disingenuous at best.

No disagreement there. Still not Harvard's problem.

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3 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

So, in this world we live in, there is no way to change a person’s mindset through education?   Does this mean what he believes when he was 16 will haunt him for the rest of his life?  When I was raising teenagers they would say stuff just to get a reaction, most adults understand this.

If his statements were not outed by people who did not have his best interest at heart, he would have attended Harvard without a problem.  I understand he apologized shortly after the statements was made.  I guess it wasn’t enough for Harvard to overlook? 

Is this the new standard for the world?  The people that outed him are disingenuous at best.

Has he stated that he no longer agrees with the statements? 

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4 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Has he stated that he no longer agrees with the statements? 

States he never did as, by his own admission, he wanted to “incite” and be provocative. Well, he has incited and been provocative. And now he has to live with the consequences of doing so.

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He has said that he regrets statements and does not feel that way any more.  Problem is, he didn't come forth with this apology until he knew he was about to be outed for it, so it's not unreasonable to at least question whether it's a sincere change of heart or just damage control after getting caught.

But secondly, I don't think he should be judged at 25 or 30 for what he said at 16.  If he's really changed and shows that in how he conducts himself wherever he goes to college, I wouldn't refuse to hire him.  But colleges are supposed to judge people based on stuff that goes on when they are 16 years old - for good or for ill.  It's unfortunate that he's paying for something by losing a opportunity if his views really have changed.  But it's a life lesson for all.  And in the end, he will get in somewhere good.  If he can get into Harvard there are many colleges he can get into.  He'll have a long and successful life more than likely.  It's not the end of the world.

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I don’t hold any statement a sixteen year old says against him if his apology is in earnest. I also don’t have a problem with Harvard rejecting him. They have to trim the lineup down and it’s not a god given right to attend the most prestigious university in the country. He should be ok and learned his first lesson from them by this rejection. 

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6 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

But colleges are supposed to judge people based on stuff that goes on when they are 16 years old - for good or for ill.  It's unfortunate that he's paying for something by losing a opportunity if his views really have changed.  But it's a life lesson for all.  And in the end, he will get in somewhere good.  If he can get into Harvard there are many colleges he can get into.  He'll have a long and successful life more than likely.  It's not the end of the world.

This is pretty much my take and why I’m so bewildered by the outrage from his defenders. This legit happens all the time.

My main take away from all this is that it’s wrong to use these kids as props for you movement, and anyone who did so should be ashamed of themselves. Ben Shapiro, for one, had this kid on his show and held him up as some sort of boy genius to, ahem, own the libs.

I’m sympathetic to the “just a kid” rationale and so are 90% of most well-adjusted Americans, which is pretty much why you shouldn’t pull them into your s***ty punditsphere, present them as mature adults, and rob them of that perfectly reasonable excuse.

Not saying this is exclusive to the right (see, David Hogg.)

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14 hours ago, AUDub said:

States he never did as, by his own admission, he wanted to “incite” and be provocative. Well, he has incited and been provocative. And now he has to live with the consequences of doing so.

Kind of what I thought...

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18 hours ago, AUDub said:

What? Actions have consequences?

Action have always had consequences from the beginning of time.  That is not my issue.  The issue I have is when his statement was outed (and I’m not sure how it was outed) there probably was a time period for Harvard to contact this kid and interview him to see if his apology was in earnest.  I know Harvard doesn’t have to do such a thing, but at least it would give the kid a chance to defend himself.  Then Harvard can do what ever they please, but at least attempt to closed the loop.

It just appears Harvard kowtows to public opinion in some of their decisions (see Ronald Sullivan) and this seems to be the way of the world now.  I was involved in a situation where a coworker was issued a license by a government official.  The coworker did not have an examination per se, but was issued the license (perfectly legal in this industry).  Months later another employee took a screen shot of the coworker’s licenses from the government’s website and put it on the Director’s desk.  The coworker was fired that day and escorted out of the building.  The coworker sued and got his job back with back pay.  The whole thing could have been avoided just by sitting down and talking to the people involved.  As soon as it went public, it embarrassed *the department* and heads had to roll.  Nothing happened to the scum that put a copy of the licenses on the Director’s desk.  In the digital age there is no where to hide. It used to be that sometimes the darkness was your friend.

19 hours ago, AUDub said:

She will be a high school student in two months

God bless you man. You are entering a time full of land-minds, keep up the good work.

 

19 hours ago, AUDub said:

I know for a fact that she didn't take me seriously after I first confronted her on it.

And so it begins.  The first 12 years, your word was gospel, but now with boys entering the scene, not so much.  I raised boys, I can’t imagine raising girls through the teenage years.  Every day you can tell a teenager don’t text and drive, don’t talk on the phone and drive, don’t drink and drive, but they know better.  Don’t let up, they will thank you for the effort later.

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