The Deepening Crisis in Evangelical Christianity

[ArgoEagle 1,773]

33 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

You're running towards the wrong end zone. 

Damn. 

Not hardly

[TitanTiger 20,472]

9 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Only God and Trump know what Trump believes. Everyone else can only speculate.

With 100% accuracy?  Sure I can agree with that.  But given the public record of what we *know* he has said about his beliefs and his actions?  It's groundless speculation to say you think he believes in the God of the Bible.  There's literally nothing out there to warrant such a belief and ample evidence that flies in the face of it.

[McLoofus 35,182]

12 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Not hardly

Mr. Grab Her By The ***** isn't worried about being politically correct just like Jesus wasn't worried about being politically incorrect.

That's what you said. And you are proving the OP correct.

 

[ArgoEagle 1,773]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Mr. Grab Her By The ***** isn't worried about being politically correct just like Jesus wasn't worried about being politically incorrect.

That's what you said. And you are proving the OP correct

 

No, you are twisting things. He said you're quote years ago. I will rephrase: Trump is not politically correct (Fact) Jesus was not politically correct (Fact). There is no way I would compare Trump's lifestyle, ethics, past, or morals to Jesus'. 

[ArgoEagle 1,773]

28 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

With 100% accuracy?  Sure I can agree with that.  But given the public record of what we *know* he has said about his beliefs and his actions?  It's groundless speculation to say you think he believes in the God of the Bible.  There's literally nothing out there to warrant such a belief and ample evidence that flies in the face of it.

I see your point.

[McLoofus 35,182]

8 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

No, you are twisting things. He said you're quote years ago. I will rephrase: Trump is not politically correct (Fact) Jesus was not politically correct (Fact). There is no way I would compare Trump's lifestyle, ethics, past, or morals to Jesus'. 

No, I haven't twisted anything. That was a direct quote from you. Now you're backtracking, which is wise. But you're still just further proving the OP correct.

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

41 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

It's groundless speculation to say you think he believes in the God of the Bible.  There's literally nothing out there to warrant such a belief and ample evidence that flies in the face of it.

So, how does this make you feel? If this is truly the case, what's your immediate reaction? Does it compel you to pray for President Trump? Or is it just a convenient political argument? 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, NolaAuTiger said:

So, how does this make you feel? If this is truly the case, what's your immediate reaction? Does it compel you to pray for President Trump? Or is it just a convenient political argument? 

Someone made an assertion that Trump believed in the God of the Bible and I countered it with evidence to the contrary.  What do my feelings have to do with anything?

That said, I have regularly prayed for the POTUS from back when Clinton was in office.  The church I go to now literally prays for the president by name every single week in the service.  They did so back when it was "Barack, our President" and now when it's "Donald, our President."

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Someone made an assertion that Trump believed in the God of the Bible and I countered it with evidence to the contrary.  What do my feelings have to do with anything?

Ostensibly, your feelings have a substantial nexus to the remark made. That’s why I inquired. Thanks for the answer.

[homersapien 11,366]

4 hours ago, ArgoEagle said:

Only God and Trump know what Trump believes. Everyone else can only speculate.

What a person "believes" is not important.  How a person behaves is what counts. 

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men

gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 

Matthew 7:16

[Grumps 3,704]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

What a person "believes" is not important.  How a person behaves is what counts. 

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men

gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 

Matthew 7:16

Unless you have an unusual definition of "important, then I completely disagree with you. Your behavior is  the results of your beliefs. If you believe that Jesus is who He says He is, then He lives within you and guides your behavior. In the scripture you quoted, "them" is referring to false prophets. So Jesus was saying that you can recognize false prophets because their "fruit" will be vile things like thorns or thistles. The "fruit" of a spirit-led person is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.

[Grumps 3,704]

19 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

So provide us with your learned definition.

I never claimed to be learned. I realize that you aren't really looking for an answer, but I will answer anyway to give you guys more comments to make fun of. I would define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus is God who came in human form to usher in a new covenant between God and man. God's old covenant with man (who God loves because He created us in His image) was in the laws that God's people were commanded to follow which started with the 10 commandments which were written by God onto stone tablets. Old testament prophets explained that a new covenant was coming where God would write His law directly onto our hearts. Jesus fulfilled the new covenant being born fully human and living a perfect life despite being tempted. Jesus became all of our sin and was crucified to pay the debt for all sinners who deserved death due to our sinful nature. Jesus withstood the full-bore wrath that God has for sin on our behalf, died, was buried, and came back to life. Jesus overcame death and gave His eternal life and His perfect nature to all of us who believe He is who He says He is and submits to His lordship. Those who have submitted to Jesus' rule over their lives are given God's spirit and actually have God's spirit within us, guiding our thoughts and actions. So, people who willingly submit to letting Jesus guide our actions are Christians.

Have fun with that!

[TexasTiger 12,830]

8 minutes ago, Grumps said:

I never claimed to be learned. I realize that you aren't really looking for an answer, but I will answer anyway to give you guys more comments to make fun of. I would define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus is God who came in human form to usher in a new covenant between God and man. God's old covenant with man (who God loves because He created us in His image) was in the laws that God's people were commanded to follow which started with the 10 commandments which were written by God onto stone tablets. Old testament prophets explained that a new covenant was coming where God would write His law directly onto our hearts. Jesus fulfilled the new covenant being born fully human and living a perfect life despite being tempted. Jesus became all of our sin and was crucified to pay the debt for all sinners who deserved death due to our sinful nature. Jesus withstood the full-bore wrath that God has for sin on our behalf, died, was buried, and came back to life. Jesus overcame death and gave His eternal life and His perfect nature to all of us who believe He is who He says He is and submits to His lordship. Those who have submitted to Jesus' rule over their lives are given God's spirit and actually have God's spirit within us, guiding our thoughts and actions. So, people who willingly submit to letting Jesus guide our actions are Christians.

Have fun with that!

Does Trump strike you as someone has submitted to Jesus’ rule over his life?

[Grumps 3,704]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

Does Trump strike you as someone has submitted to Jesus’ rule over his life?

No, but I am not qualified to determine who rules his life.

[DKW 86 7,419]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

No, but I am not qualified to determine who rules his life.

By their testimony you will know them...

[DKW 86 7,419]

2 hours ago, Grumps said:

I never claimed to be learned. I realize that you aren't really looking for an answer, but I will answer anyway to give you guys more comments to make fun of. I would define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus is God who came in human form to usher in a new covenant between God and man. God's old covenant with man (who God loves because He created us in His image) was in the laws that God's people were commanded to follow which started with the 10 commandments which were written by God onto stone tablets. Old testament prophets explained that a new covenant was coming where God would write His law directly onto our hearts. Jesus fulfilled the new covenant being born fully human and living a perfect life despite being tempted. Jesus became all of our sin and was crucified to pay the debt for all sinners who deserved death due to our sinful nature. Jesus withstood the full-bore wrath that God has for sin on our behalf, died, was buried, and came back to life. Jesus overcame death and gave His eternal life and His perfect nature to all of us who believe He is who He says He is and submits to His lordship. Those who have submitted to Jesus' rule over their lives are given God's spirit and actually have God's spirit within us, guiding our thoughts and actions. So, people who willingly submit to letting Jesus guide our actions are Christians.

How does that apply to DJT? In any way? In the last 70 years.

Was it when he was cheating in business?
Was it while he was getting his freak on with several porn stars?
Was it when he was cheating on his wives?

[triangletiger 1,599]

12 hours ago, Grumps said:

Unless you have an unusual definition of "important, then I completely disagree with you. Your behavior is  the results of your beliefs. If you believe that Jesus is who He says He is, then He lives within you and guides your behavior. In the scripture you quoted, "them" is referring to false prophets. So Jesus was saying that you can recognize false prophets because their "fruit" will be vile things like thorns or thistles. The "fruit" of a spirit-led person is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.

Does that sound like Twitter-master Trump?  I'll grant that we can't know with certainty what's in a person's heart, but we can get an idea based on his or her words and actions.  We make judgement calls and decisions all the time based on what people do or say.  (Exhibit A:  Your opinion of people posting on this messageboard (unless you know them outside of here) is based solely on what they have written here.)  

[Grumps 3,704]

13 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

By their testimony you will know them...

I would have said you will know them by how they love others. That is a more sure sign than their testimony... but ok.

[Grumps 3,704]

12 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

How does that apply to DJT? In any way? In the last 70 years.

Was it when he was cheating in business?
Was it while he was getting his freak on with several porn stars?
Was it when he was cheating on his wives?

I don't see how it does apply to DJT. If I implied that DJT was, in my eyes, a good example of a Christ-follower, then I misspoke. Please let me know where I implied that and I will correct it. I stated something to the effect that I don't understand people defining what a Christian is who admittedly don't know. Then I understood you to ask me for my definition, so I gave it. I also thought this was more about "Evangelical Christians" than DJT.

[Grumps 3,704]

3 hours ago, triangletiger said:

Does that sound like Twitter-master Trump?  I'll grant that we can't know with certainty what's in a person's heart, but we can get an idea based on his or her words and actions.  We make judgement calls and decisions all the time based on what people do or say.  (Exhibit A:  Your opinion of people posting on this messageboard (unless you know them outside of here) is based solely on what they have written here.)  

No it doesn't. I agree with your post. I don't agree with the idea implied by some that if you want Trump to do what he can to make the country better that you are a racist, misogynist, xenophobic, homophobe. (I am not saying that you implied that). I don't understand why people seem to think that Christians think Trump is a good guy.

[homersapien 11,366]

17 hours ago, Grumps said:

Unless you have an unusual definition of "important, then I completely disagree with you. Your behavior is  the results of your beliefs. If you believe that Jesus is who He says He is, then He lives within you and guides your behavior. In the scripture you quoted, "them" is referring to false prophets. So Jesus was saying that you can recognize false prophets because their "fruit" will be vile things like thorns or thistles. The "fruit" of a spirit-led person is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.

Not from my observations.

I see lots of self-proclaimed Christians who show no empathy at all for their fellow man.  But no doubt, they feel "saved". 

Christianity is as Christianity does.

[homersapien 11,366]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

No it doesn't. I agree with your post. I don't agree with the idea implied by some that if you want Trump to do what he can to make the country better that you are a racist, misogynist, xenophobic, homophobe. (I am not saying that you implied that). I don't understand why people seem to think that Christians think Trump is a good guy.

Seriously?

I think we ALL want the president - Trump or whomever - "to do what they can to make the country better".

That has nothing to do with supporting a president who is a racist, misogynist, xenophobe. I don't understand how people could think Trump would be a good president.  He's certainly not a good person. 

I can only conclude the people who support him think a racist, misogynistic, xenophobic is going to be good for the country which says a lot about them.

 

[triangletiger 1,599]

21 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Seriously?

I think we ALL want the president - Trump or whomever - "to do what they can to make the country better".

That has nothing to do with supporting a president who is a racist, misogynist, xenophobe. I don't understand how people could think Trump would be a good president.  He's certainly not a good person. 

I can only conclude the people who support him think a racist, misogynistic, xenophobic is going to be good for the country which says a lot about them.

 

To be fair, there have been many great men throughout history who were not necessarily 'good' men. (Though I don't consider Trump to be either.)

[homersapien 11,366]

1 minute ago, triangletiger said:

To be fair, there have been many great men throughout history who were not necessarily 'good' men. (Though I don't consider Trump to be either.)

Trump is way beyond "not necessarily good".  He is a narcissistic psychopath. 

He is not capable of basic human empathy, much less doing what is best for the country.  He cares more about himself than the country.  Every day proves it. 

 

[DKW 86 7,419]

2 hours ago, Grumps said:

I don't see how it does apply to DJT. If I implied that DJT was, in my eyes, a good example of a Christ-follower, then I misspoke. Please let me know where I implied that and I will correct it. I stated something to the effect that I don't understand people defining what a Christian is who admittedly don't know. Then I understood you to ask me for my definition, so I gave it. I also thought this was more about "Evangelical Christians" than DJT.

We were talking of DJT and Christian Witness and Actions in general terms in the thread.