Null



Sign in to follow this  
Auburn85

Michael Brown was Murdered

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, japantiger said:

How do we judge how many shots are excessive?

I don’t think there’s a definitive number 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites




2 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

I don’t think there’s a definitive number 

he was 6'4 and weighed 300 pounds....so what do you think?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/11/2019 at 2:58 PM, TitanTiger said:

I disagree.  Selling cigarettes, even illegally, doesn't warrant the kind of police presence and response.  It was like seeing a  cockroach in the kitchen and grabbing a sledgehammer to kill it.

Exactly. He is dead over $2-3 Tax Violation. WTH?

Who sends out 4+ cops over a $2-3 Tax Violation?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AU64 said:

he was 6'4 and weighed 300 pounds....so what do you think?  

Wilson did what he had to do. If it takes 1 shot to end the threat, then take 1. If it takes 10, 20, or whatever it takes to end the threat, then do that. I wasn’t there so I can’t say. Wilson was so I’ll go with his judgments. 

Edited by aubearcat
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

Exactly. He is dead over $2-3 Tax Violation. WTH?

Who sends out 4+ cops over a $2-3 Tax Violation?

Perhaps he’d resisted or been adversarial in the past. Perhaps they were a vice unit specifically charged with dealing with that type of crime/violation. Our small department always prefers that we have backup respond on every call regardless of the nature of the call. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2019 at 7:18 PM, aubiefifty said:

what are they rewriting? i am serious. him being shot six times?

There were Black witnesses at the scene that supported the officers story and there we black witnesses who said the Officers report was bogus. Then on top of that there was physical evidence that the Office was attacked by Brown.  With some witnesses supporting the officer and with physical evidence showing officer had been  attacked by Brown there is no way that Warren or Harris could honestly say the officer murdered him. 

Harris as an ex-prosecutor should know that. That is the type of inflammatory statement that could cause another riot where everybody loses.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, aubearcat said:

Wilson did what he had to do. If it takes 1 shot to end the threat, then take 1. If it takes 10, 20, or whatever it takes to end the threat, then do that. I wasn’t there so I can’t say. Wilson was so I’ll go with his judgments. 

I can imagine shooting until you are out of ammunition being the default "brain setting' in a situation where you are being attacked.  The police response to the Dayton shooter fired ~60 shots in taking him down.  Too many?  Not sure many would think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Exactly. He is dead over $2-3 Tax Violation. WTH?

Who sends out 4+ cops over a $2-3 Tax Violation?

Extra cops are called when you have a 350# man who’s been a repeat offender refusing to cooperate. Or the initial cop could just try to take him himself and shoot him. 

How do you conclude it’s a 2-3$ violation?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, alexava said:

Extra cops are called when you have a 350# man who’s been a repeat offender refusing to cooperate. Or the initial cop could just try to take him himself and shoot him. 

 

Doesn't always end well that way either....thinking of Rodney King....other than for RK, it would have been better for the city and for the police if the first cop had ust shot him instead of a dozen guys trying to hold RK down.  And of course, you don't always have a half dozen cops available when trying arrest at big guy walking down the middle of a city street. 

  • Dislike 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn’t sure if this deserved a separate thread or no but it seems that this thread has some general criminal justice discussion so it seems relevant. It’s a really interesting listen if you have the time. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/throughline/id1451109634?i=1000446944043

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, alexava said:

Extra cops are called when you have a 350# man who’s been a repeat offender refusing to cooperate. Or the initial cop could just try to take him himself and shoot him. 

How do you conclude it’s a 2-3$ violation?

Taxes on a pack of cigarettes. He had bought a pack of cigarettes and was selling singles on the street. 

Edited by DKW 86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Taxes on a pack of cigarettes. He had bought a pack of cigarettes and was selling singles on the street. 

I’m pretty sure It was more than a pack. He was known for repeatedly doing this. It was more like his occupation. Either way the victims, also known as legitimate businessmen, reported him. The police didn’t have the luxury to just leave him alone because he didn’t want to cooperate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/11/2019 at 3:25 PM, alexava said:

8 or 9 times in a couple months time he was cited for the same thing. This time he was going to jail and blatantly refused. The first officer could have taken him easily and without incident had he not required the response. Having back up is not a bad thing. It allows you to overpower the suspect instead of a fight that would require a taser, flashlight or gun. Every thing you blame on police was not their choice. The choke hold was the straw that broke the camels back. But this damn camel had a very weak back. 

We can disagree but facts are facts. He was a repeat offender and brought everything on himself. 

It still was no reason to kill him. His crimes were minor. You should put them in perspective. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Tigerbelle said:

It still was no reason to kill him. His crimes were minor. You should put them in perspective. 

You mean before he resisted arrest?

  • Dislike 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Tigerbelle said:

It still was no reason to kill him. His crimes were minor. You should put them in perspective. 

They didn’t kill him. They used the force required ( by him) to do their job. His body couldn’t handle it. It was unfortunate for everyone involved. But it would be more accurate to call it suicide than murder. All you gotta do is watch it? 

  • Dislike 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, The Freak said:

You mean before he resisted arrest?

And during. He was doing a misdemeanor at best. Why dont we go after the real villains here?

We had 4+ cops working on misdemeanor stuff, sad.

Edited by DKW 86
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/12/2019 at 6:05 AM, aubearcat said:

Ok, my apologies. I misunderstood some of the articles I had read and I thought it was ruled a complete medical incident. However, the DOJ also investigated this case and ruled that no charges should be filed. 

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/16/742186042/nypd-officer-wont-face-federal-criminal-charges-in-eric-garner-s-death-sources-s

I’ll also add that there’s a difference between homicide and murder. Murder requires intent and is always illegal . A homicide can, of course, be legal depending on the circumstances. I don’t believe a line can be drawn from Pantaleo’s actions to Garner’s death that shows he had intent to kill Garner. 

i really admire when someone admits they made a mistake or misunderstood. it means you have honor.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

And during. He was doing a misdemeanor at best. Why dont we go after the real villains here?

We had 4+ cops working on misdemeanor stuff, sad.

What if it’s that specific unit’s assignment? NYPD has 1000’s of officers and just about any specialty unit you can think of. As Alexa has stated, he was known to be adversarial which is likely a reason to have numerous officers on scene. In hopes of preventing a confrontation.  Our department has an officer that specifically enforces ordinances and one of the ordinances is to keep grass cut to a certain length. 

Edited by aubearcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, aubearcat said:

What if it’s that specific unit’s assignment? NYPD has 1000’s of officers and just about any specialty unit you can think of. As Alexa has stated, he was known to be adversarial which is likely a reason to have numerous officers on scene. In hopes of preventing a confrontation.  Our department has an officer that specifically enforces ordinances and one of the ordinances is to keep grass cut to a certain length. 

I think you are missing the point. Adversarial or not, this was a misdemeanor offense. I still do not think it was worthy of the $$$ invested in it to arrest him or any others for that matter. It was a low on the totem pole event that went very wrong.

Brother, you do get that they killed a man, a man is dead, over just about nothing. He might have got time served as if it went to trial.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

I think you are missing the point. Adversarial or not, this was a misdemeanor offense. I still do not think it was worthy of the $$$ invested in it to arrest him or any others for that matter. It was a low on the totem pole event that went very wrong.

Brother, you do get that they killed a man, a man is dead, over just about nothing. He might have got time served as if it went to trial.

 

Yes sir, I understand that a death resulted in the interaction but I also believe Garner is more responsible for that than the NYPD. I know there are instances, at least on the surface, where it appears people have cooperated with police and still been killed. I do believe if Garner had accepted his summons or arrest and went to court, he’d probably still be selling “loosies” on the streets of New York. However, he didn’t cooperate and as a result of his poor health and the hold, he died. 

Many of the interactions we as police officers have with the public are low level small time offensives/offenders. We do, on occasion come in contact with very serious offenders but not nearly as often as the misdemeanor guys. We can’t just stop interaction on a crime/violation because the offense is a misdemeanor and the offender is low level and uncooperative. 

For example, we have an individual who has been stealing left out lawn equipment. We know this person is doing it and the person knows we know but since people rarely keep serial numbers on fairly inexpensive lawn equipment, it’s been difficult to build a case. So say we finally have the person with a stolen mower worth about $300. We get ready to take this person to jail/issue a summons this person becomes adversarial verbally or physically, we can’t just say, “oh have a nice day this is just a misdemeanor so sorry for the inconvenience”. If this person begins to fight or resist or whatever, that person has escalated the situation like Garner did and so we have to take some measure to control the situation like Panteleo did. Now, the hold was in violation of policy so that was wrong but I don’t think any reasonable person would say he willfully and intentionally killed Garner. 

If you’re a business owner and feel like Garner is taking business from you, you call the police and complain wanting something done. That’s why they were there in the first place. They were their with several guys because Garner had a history of being adversarial. It’s tragic that he died but I just can’t make the bridge that it was NYPD and specifically Panteleo’s fault. I put the most blame on Garner for violating laws/ordinances and then refusing to comply when caught.  I apologize for the long post. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, alexava said:

They didn’t kill him. They used the force required ( by him) to do their job. His body couldn’t handle it. It was unfortunate for everyone involved. But it would be more accurate to call it suicide than murder. All you gotta do is watch it? 

Yes they did. They may not have intended to cause his death.....but they did. And I have watched it, thank you very much for insinuating that I hadn't. Unfortunate? It was a tragedy. 

ANY person of color in America is going to panic when an interaction with police occurs.

In Madison, AL where I used to live, an elderly gentleman  from India was almost beaten to death by a policeman for no reason. The poor old man did not speak English. He was in Alabama visiting his son, and had decided to talk a walk in the neighborhood. He was not armed, was not running away, or giving any indication of criminal activity at all. He was just strolling down his son's street one morning. He was racially profiled and it almost killed him. 

I have black friends who have families and they  have started tutorials for their children to teach them how to survive coming in contact with police; I am so sad that these families have to even consider such a thing, let alone putting a plan into action. One of my friends said she won't even send her 17 year old to run an errand for her because she's afraid of something going wrong. He doesn't even get to drive himself to and from school in case he has an accident and police are called. They are more worried about the police killing their children than their teens dying in an auto accident...….

None of these people killed by police were guilty of death penalty crimes. That's the bottom line here. And white people are not too scared to let their teens out of the house in case of death by police interaction. That's what I mean by perspective. White privilege is a real thing even if white people refuse to acknowledge it. Look at these terrible shootings from the other side. Shooting someone has become way too easy for police, and they suffer no repercussions in most cases. It has also come to light that police forces have a disturbing number of white supremacists who are active police officers. That is terrifying news for people of color, and it really should scare all of us.  

I believe criminals should pay a debt to society. But there has to be consequences for excessive police force as well. Wearing a badge should not mean the police are above the law either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All parents should explain to their children to respect the law and do as an officer says......worked for me.......I find people that dislike law enforcement are typically law breakers.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tigerbelle said:

Yes they did. They may not have intended to cause his death.....but they did. And I have watched it, thank you very much for insinuating that I hadn't. Unfortunate? It was a tragedy. 

ANY person of color in America is going to panic when an interaction with police occurs.

In Madison, AL where I used to live, an elderly gentleman  from India was almost beaten to death by a policeman for no reason. The poor old man did not speak English. He was in Alabama visiting his son, and had decided to talk a walk in the neighborhood. He was not armed, was not running away, or giving any indication of criminal activity at all. He was just strolling down his son's street one morning. He was racially profiled and it almost killed him. 

I have black friends who have families and they  have started tutorials for their children to teach them how to survive coming in contact with police; I am so sad that these families have to even consider such a thing, let alone putting a plan into action. One of my friends said she won't even send her 17 year old to run an errand for her because she's afraid of something going wrong. He doesn't even get to drive himself to and from school in case he has an accident and police are called. They are more worried about the police killing their children than their teens dying in an auto accident...….

None of these people killed by police were guilty of death penalty crimes. That's the bottom line here. And white people are not too scared to let their teens out of the house in case of death by police interaction. That's what I mean by perspective. White privilege is a real thing even if white people refuse to acknowledge it. Look at these terrible shootings from the other side. Shooting someone has become way too easy for police, and they suffer no repercussions in most cases. It has also come to light that police forces have a disturbing number of white supremacists who are active police officers. That is terrifying news for people of color, and it really should scare all of us.  

I believe criminals should pay a debt to society. But there has to be consequences for excessive police force as well. Wearing a badge should not mean the police are above the law either. 

Oh good grief. Hyperbolic nonsense. Garner cooperates and he’s here today. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tigerbelle said:

Yes they did. They may not have intended to cause his death.....but they did. And I have watched it, thank you very much for insinuating that I hadn't. Unfortunate? It was a tragedy. 

ANY person of color in America is going to panic when an interaction with police occurs.

In Madison, AL where I used to live, an elderly gentleman  from India was almost beaten to death by a policeman for no reason. The poor old man did not speak English. He was in Alabama visiting his son, and had decided to talk a walk in the neighborhood. He was not armed, was not running away, or giving any indication of criminal activity at all. He was just strolling down his son's street one morning. He was racially profiled and it almost killed him. 

I have black friends who have families and they  have started tutorials for their children to teach them how to survive coming in contact with police; I am so sad that these families have to even consider such a thing, let alone putting a plan into action. One of my friends said she won't even send her 17 year old to run an errand for her because she's afraid of something going wrong. He doesn't even get to drive himself to and from school in case he has an accident and police are called. They are more worried about the police killing their children than their teens dying in an auto accident...….

None of these people killed by police were guilty of death penalty crimes. That's the bottom line here. And white people are not too scared to let their teens out of the house in case of death by police interaction. That's what I mean by perspective. White privilege is a real thing even if white people refuse to acknowledge it. Look at these terrible shootings from the other side. Shooting someone has become way too easy for police, and they suffer no repercussions in most cases. It has also come to light that police forces have a disturbing number of white supremacists who are active police officers. That is terrifying news for people of color, and it really should scare all of us.  

I believe criminals should pay a debt to society. But there has to be consequences for excessive police force as well. Wearing a badge should not mean the police are above the law either. 

I used to live in Madison also. It is a true international mixture of races and ethnicities. While the Madison police are famous for being jerks about stop sign ambushes and speeding tickets for two mph over, I never saw or heard of any systemic bullying like you are describing. If white privilege belief is real at your house, it is because you are teaching it to your kids, as are your friends who are terrified to let their teens drive to school.  Madison and Huntsville are well known to be very progressive areas, not the old south hick towns you are describing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

I used to live in Madison also. It is a true international mixture of races and ethnicities. While the Madison police are famous for being jerks about stop sign ambushes and speeding tickets for two mph over, I never saw or heard of any systemic bullying like you are describing. If white privilege belief is real at your house, it is because you are teaching it to your kids, as are your friends who are terrified to let their teens drive to school.  Madison and Huntsville are well known to be very progressive areas, not the old south hick towns you are describing.

The story in Madison did happen......remember seeing it on Al.com a year or so back.......guy didnt speak english so I assume he didnt understand verbal commands.

Edited by kevon67
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this