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tbone4jc

Why are we so divided?

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7 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

None of these guys will challenge Gus or threaten to find a better way of doing things than whatever he wrote in his book 16 years ago. Except maybe Caddy, who is almost certainly being ignored and who will hopefully find a better gig and be the next TWill or TRob. Even so, like you said, he's a first year guy who probably didn't have a lot of other P5 offers yet. So even he probably isn't rocking the boat. 

Dilly might be the next Dabo but he's not here to bite the hand that feeds. 

But yeah. What we have now is the culmination of a steady process of removing any outside ideas or new ways of thinking from the staff. As you, I and other objective observers have been saying for years.

Oh, you forgot Porter, who is a stud with tons of experience. Which is why he coaches the position we don't use. 

Using the threads OP of the short time Gus has been a HC as a focal point. If you want to consider him inexperienced,  surrounding himself with not only YesMen, but also inexperienced will only compound it. I believe that's where Gus is at this point. There's no brainstorming or challenging of ideas to formulate a solution to the issues we face. At least none that are taken seriously by the man in charge. Mainly, because theoretically he's the smartest man in the room.

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6 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

@McLoofus @Tiger

Good points about assistant hires. I do actually kind of like that Gus is willing to take guys onto his staff with less experience. It's an incredible opportunity for some of our young coaches to be in these positions at Auburn, and I can't help but feel good for those guys and for Gus being willing to give them chances. 

That said, how much of his hiring patterns stem from the possibility that he may not be able to hire more established coaches on the offensive side of the ball? Are seasoned assistants willing to work with him? 

I think it may be he has no almost no coaching network to fall back on to reach out to for assistant coaching positions. He has barely been in the profession at this level and his mentors, if you can even call them that, are who exactly? Houston Nutt, Gene Chizik, and Todd Graham/Herb Hand? Yuck. 

Edited by Tiger
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1 minute ago, Barnacle said:

@McLoofus @Tiger

Good points about assistant hires. I do actually kind of like that Gus is willing to take guys onto his staff with less experience. It's an incredible opportunity for some of our young coaches to be in these positions at Auburn, and I can't help but feel good for those guys and for Gus being willing to give them chances. 

That said, how much of his hiring patterns stem from the possibility that he may not be able to hire more established coaches on the offensive side of the ball? Are seasoned assistants willing to work with him? 

Absolutely a lot of feel good stories on that side of the ball. On the positive side, it seems part of the excellent culture that Gus has instilled here Unfortunately, I don't think it translates to as many wins as experienced coaches applying said experience would.

And, yeah, I think Hand making a lateral move out followed by Chip Lindsey's departure- having said all the right things through clenched teeth- closed the door on anyone thinking they were going to come in here and be allowed to exercise any autonomy or exert any influence whatsoever. Gus simply doesn't want anyone else's input and that has to be known industry wide at this point.  

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37 minutes ago, Tiger said:

One thing to also consider for our problems on O:

QB Coach -- Dilly

RB Coach -- Caddy

WR Coach -- Burns

OL Coach - Grimes

 

Not a single one of these guys would be hired by another SEC program at their current position. And Dilly/Caddy/Burns do a great job recruiting for sure. But they are all grossly under-qualified at this stage in their careers to be holding their positions at an SEC power like Auburn. They just are. If they were fired I don't even think they would get an interviewed by any SEC teams to fill a vacancy. Caddy has name recognition but we plucked him from HS/AAF. 

You can't have subpar hires and expect this thing to operate at an elite level. Gus is dumb as hell for thinking that would work.

It's no surprise our defense has been vastly outshining our O over the past few years.

If I may counter:  I do appreciate the fact that Gus is willing to go younger with his assistants.  It is a risk for sure, but the reward could be much higher.  Three of the four are very young and are really good recruiters because they can relate to the recruits.  I personally think Caddy is a fantastic hire who will thrive as an RB coach.  Dilly I am not sure about yet as I just don't know enough about him.  Burns, I actually do like the job he has done here.  He can recruit and I personally think he has developed our guys better than CDC.  Grimes, I am a little disappointing with this year to be honest.

Remember Dabo was just a wide receivers coach when promoted.  At UGA, Dell McGee was an analyst at Auburn before a brief stint at Georgia Southern.  Usually these coaches tend be younger and less experienced because the more experienced have moved up to coordinator or head coach.  You see this trend in the NFL now as well.  It is just one of those risks where if it pays off you are a genius.  If it doesn't you should have known all along it wouldn't work kind of thing.  I think we can make our minds up about Burns and Grimes at this point, but Dilly and Caddy need more than two games.  In Dilly's instance we probably won't know until the end of next year because he is supposed to be a quarterback's coach and we would need two years of Bo Nix to see if improvement was made from year one to two.

 
Edited by abw0004
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24 minutes ago, Tiger said:

One thing to also consider for our problems on O:

QB Coach -- Dilly

RB Coach -- Caddy

WR Coach -- Burns

OL Coach - Grimes

 

Not sure that is where the blame is. 

Dilly- First season, so we have little info on him. Quite frankly though, I like what I've heard. He seems very intelligent. I think he has a lot of potential to be a really realy good coach. 

Caddy- Everything I've heard suggests that Caddy should also be a very good coach. 

Burns- Still unsure how I feel about him at this position. In some ways, I think our receivers have progressed very well under him. In others, I think they've regressed. I had a class with him in college though. Like Dilly, he's actually pretty dang smart.

Grimes- Another somewhat unknown. OL has definitely underperformed. I've heard 2 problems mentioned for why: 1. Recruiting- He hasn't been here long enough for this to be his fault. These starters were not recruited by Grimes. That said I think the 2nd one is a bigger issue. 2. Teaching- Hand was an absolutely terrible OL coach. It is possible that Grimes is not doing a good job teaching. I still think it is also possible that these starters were really messed up by Hand's instruction. The problems I see appear to amount to inconsistency, which suggests that they are doing the right things some of the time. They may be trying to unlearn techniques that have become automatic, which might be why they are struggling. Still, my patience with him is starting to grow short. If the starters won't move away from the poor technique Hand has taught them, it is time to find someone that will do things correctly. Of the 4, there's the most credibility in criticizing Grimes. 

I still think the blame is really threefold: 1) OL effort. I believe the talent is good enough (see the terrible talent we had in 2010). I just don't think the guys are giving focused effort on every play. 2) Playcalling. It has been vanilla, and I expect that to end against A&M. But there have also just been some head scratchers at times. We tried to run up the middle some early. When that didn't work, we went completely to a perimeter game and abandoned the run outright. While I applaud Gus for not being the stubborn playcaller he was before (4 years ago, he would have kept running up the middle on every play), he bailed on it too quickly. At times, Tulane had 4 in the box, and we were still throwing screens and running jet sweeps instead of pounding the rock downhill. Some of this could be rust. Some of this could be related to the vanilla game plan. Still, that has to get better and fast.

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3 minutes ago, leglessdan said:

Using the threads OP of the short time Gus has been a HC as a focal point. If you want to consider him inexperienced,  surrounding himself with not only YesMen, but also inexperienced will only compound it. I believe that's where Gus is at this point. There's no brainstorming or challenging of ideas to formulate a solution to the issues we face. At least none that are taken seriously by the man in charge. Mainly, because theoretically he's the smartest man in the room.

This is exactly the case.

Also, notice that you never hear about him visiting with other coaches (other than a little bit with his like-minded buddies Briles and Freeze) or specialists who might expand the mindset of his team and staff. Contrast that against saban bringing in improv comedians to help his players with their communication, among numerous other things of that nature. kirby brought Belichick to a coaching clinic. Gus... I dunno. Maybe he just re-reads his book every once in awhile. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Ah you're right I forgot Porter who is far and away our best and most accomplished coach on O. But like you said we don't even use his position. I think Gus did that intentionally based on how he has hired for comfort rather than improvement. Porter has been a RB coach for his career and we stick him at TE? Gimme a break. And didn't even move him to RB when we fired Horton. Gus really would rather do what he wants rather than be pushed to win. What a freaking joke.

Porter is also responsible for ST which is one of our biggest failures to date. We were awesome last year, what happened?

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1 minute ago, toddc said:

Porter is also responsible for ST which is one of our biggest failures to date. We were awesome last year, what happened?

One area of ST is a failure, which is kick coverage. Good question why it's not working but, unlike other deficiencies on our team, there is reason to believe it will get corrected. Might just be a matter of finding the right guys. (I have no clue what the personnel differences are between last year and this year.)

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1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

One area of ST is a failure, which is kick coverage. Good question why it's not working but, unlike other deficiencies on our team, there is reason to believe it will get corrected. Might just be a matter of finding the right guys. (I have no clue what the personnel differences are between last year and this year.)

I can’t believe it’s all that different personnel wise.

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Watch Auburn continue to be a training ground for young/inexperienced coaches while they get paid a top 5 salary.  Let them go up against the same position/coordinators of your rivals who are pulling in guys with NFL & HC experience littered all over their staff and see which group excels.  

Frankly, I've had my fill of AU acting as a training school for men that have no background or experience.  

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47 minutes ago, Tiger said:

One thing to also consider for our problems on O:

QB Coach -- Dilly

RB Coach -- Caddy

WR Coach -- Burns

OL Coach - Grimes

 

Not a single one of these guys would be hired by another SEC program at their current position. And Dilly/Caddy/Burns do a great job recruiting for sure. But they are all grossly under-qualified at this stage in their careers to be holding their positions at an SEC power like Auburn. They just are. If they were fired I don't even think they would get an interviewed by any SEC teams to fill a vacancy. Caddy has name recognition but we plucked him from HS/AAF. 

You can't have subpar hires and expect this thing to operate at an elite level. Gus is dumb as hell for thinking that would work.

It's no surprise our defense has been vastly outshining our O over the past few years.

I kinda agree with your assessment, but it is hard to know how each one of these coaches has progressed from the outside w/o someone on the practice field and during game day to see how these coaches teach, and react to what is going on w the WRs. 

But I think the biggest reason is that Gus Malzahn, while being a great offensive mind, mainly b/c he knows how to scheme running plays, is NOT really an Offensive Coordinator. He doesn't bring in highly experienced position coaches that know their craft. He brings in guys that either are learning their position (Burns, Caddy, Dillinger) or a coach that probably knows his craft, but is a poor recruiter (Grimes). 

And Gus basically tells these position coaches how to coach (IMHO) their position based on what HE sees and wants. I think this is totally why our offense has NO identity for many years now. While Gus was OC, he brought a new offensive scheme to the SEC(HUHN), and in his first year as our HC, but then the defenses and the rules changed to make it harder. Gus has tried to transition and adjust, but so far it has mixed results, and little identity and consistency.

THat is what makes us polar on this forum, and so many reasons offered, discussed and cussed. 

 

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22 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Contrast that against saban bringing in improv comedians to help his players with their communication, among numerous other things of that nature. kirby brought Belichick to a coaching clinic. Gus... I dunno. Maybe he just re-reads his book every once in awhile. 

Incorrect.

2014 Auburn players and coaches went to learn from the Navy's Seal Training Force for leadership training 

2017 Mission Trip to the Dominican Republic

2018 Mission Trip to the Dominican Republic

2018 Gene Chizik was invited to come speak about overcoming challenges

2019 there was also another mission trip but I can't find where they went.  I remember the pictures posted.

Edited by abw0004

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@abw0004 and @AUFriction you guys make some good points but my point is those guys could very well be fantastic coaches in time -- but they were fast tracked to AU. Our HC is already still, apparently, learning on the job and now you throw 3 other main position coaches also learning on the job at this level. The fact that we don't know much about them is exactly my point. AU should nevverrr be in the spot to hire such green guys, as @keesler mentioned above.

Also I'm fairly certain Grimes did recruit Kim/Brahms/etc. I don't think when you're his age you can be considered an unknown. Those are his guys. No argument from me regarding Hand being a bad coach though.

The thing is Gus hired Dilly/Caddy/Burns and their best coaching days are far ahead of them. They have a total of what? 8 years d-1 coaching experience combined, if that? We should not be hiring guys who haven't shown to be studs. Not at a place like Auburn. Not at a place that pays a top 5 salary.

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Just now, Tiger said:

@abw0004 and @AUFriction you guys make some good points but my point is those guys could very well be fantastic coaches in time -- but they were fast tracked to AU. Our HC is already still, apparently, learning on the job and now you throw 3 other main position coaches also learning on the job at this level. The fact that we don't know much about them is exactly my point. AU should nevverrr be in the spot to hire such green guys, as @keesler mentioned above.

Also I'm fairly certain Grimes did recruit Kim/Brahms/etc. I don't think when you're his age you can be considered an unknown. Those are his guys. No argument from me regarding Hand being a bad coach though.

The thing is Gus hired Dilly/Caddy/Burns and their best coaching days are far ahead of them. They have a total of what? 8 years d-1 coaching experience combined, if that? We should not be hiring guys who haven't shown to be studs. Not at a place like Auburn. Not at a place that pays a top 5 salary.

Oh I understand.  That is why it is a risk for sure.  I would venture out to say Caddy's best coaching days may already be upon us.  I have not heard anything to contradict this.  I would agree possibly on Dilly, I just do not have enough information to make a definitive opinion.

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8 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

This is exactly the case.

Also, notice that you never hear about him visiting with other coaches (other than a little bit with his like-minded buddies Briles and Freeze) or specialists who might expand the mindset of his team and staff. Contrast that against saban bringing in improv comedians to help his players with their communication, among numerous other things of that nature. kirby brought Belichick to a coaching clinic. Gus... I dunno. Maybe he just re-reads his book every once in awhile. 

 

 

In 2019 Gus brought in Bill Clark (UAB HC) Brennan Marion (William & Mary OC) Larry Kehres (Div II 3 National Championships), in 2018 he brought in Tommy Bowden (out of coaching for 10 yrs), Bobby Wallace (former HC NoAla out of coaching 2 yrs), Mack Brown (former Texas HC out of coaching 5 yrs), Mike Norvell (HC Memphis).

In 2019 Kirby brought in Doug Penderson (SB champ)+ a few NFL coordinators, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Sean McVay both ended up in the SB.

In 2019 Nick brought in Freddie Kitchens (Browns), Matt Patricia (Lions), Joe Judge (Pats), Dantonio (Mich ST) and Dr Kevin Elko, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Doug Penderson/McCarthy (Packers) and Kevin Elko.

Auburn has a whole different mind set.  Whoo Hoo! 🌞

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3 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

Oh I understand.  That is why it is a risk for sure.  I would venture out to say Caddy's best coaching days may already be upon us.  I have not heard anything to contradict this.  I would agree possibly on Dilly, I just do not have enough information to make a definitive opinion.

Certainly a risk. And like I said you made some good points. I just wish things didn't look so familiarly stuck in the mud on O to pair with our D. And I honestly really like the potential of all our coaches. I just think they could be learning the ropes somewhere where the pressure to succeed isn't so much and the margin for error is greater.

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2 minutes ago, keesler said:

In 2019 Gus brought in Bill Clark (UAB HC) Brennan Marion (William & Mary OC) Larry Kehres (Div II 3 National Championships), in 2018 he brought in Tommy Bowden (out of coaching for 10 yrs), Bobby Wallace (former HC NoAla out of coaching 2 yrs), Mack Brown (former Texas HC out of coaching 5 yrs), Mike Norvell (HC Memphis).

In 2019 Kirby brought in Doug Penderson (SB champ)+ a few NFL coordinators, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Sean McVay both ended up in the SB.

In 2019 Nick brought in Freddie Kitchens (Browns), Matt Patricia (Lions), Joe Judge (Pats), Dantonio (Mich ST) and Dr Kevin Elko, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Doug Penderson/McCarthy (Packers) and Kevin Elko.

Auburn has a whole different mind set.  Whoo Hoo! 🌞

Based on this alone you would be correct.  I would look above to my post as well.  It isn't just coaches he has brought in for perspective.  It is other avenues like the Seal team and those mission trips.  It is a more out of the box perspective.  Thanks for listing out the coaches who came in though, I did not know that.  

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10 minutes ago, keesler said:

In 2019 Gus brought in Bill Clark (UAB HC) Brennan Marion (William & Mary OC) Larry Kehres (Div II 3 National Championships), in 2018 he brought in Tommy Bowden (out of coaching for 10 yrs), Bobby Wallace (former HC NoAla out of coaching 2 yrs), Mack Brown (former Texas HC out of coaching 5 yrs), Mike Norvell (HC Memphis).

In 2019 Kirby brought in Doug Penderson (SB champ)+ a few NFL coordinators, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Sean McVay both ended up in the SB.

In 2019 Nick brought in Freddie Kitchens (Browns), Matt Patricia (Lions), Joe Judge (Pats), Dantonio (Mich ST) and Dr Kevin Elko, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Doug Penderson/McCarthy (Packers) and Kevin Elko.

Auburn has a whole different mind set.  Whoo Hoo! 🌞

So basically Gus brings in guys so he can talk and not so he can listen. Sounds about right. 

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8 minutes ago, keesler said:

In 2019 Gus brought in Bill Clark (UAB HC) Brennan Marion (William & Mary OC) Larry Kehres (Div II 3 National Championships), in 2018 he brought in Tommy Bowden (out of coaching for 10 yrs), Bobby Wallace (former HC NoAla out of coaching 2 yrs), Mack Brown (former Texas HC out of coaching 5 yrs), Mike Norvell (HC Memphis).

In 2019 Kirby brought in Doug Penderson (SB champ)+ a few NFL coordinators, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Sean McVay both ended up in the SB.

In 2019 Nick brought in Freddie Kitchens (Browns), Matt Patricia (Lions), Joe Judge (Pats), Dantonio (Mich ST) and Dr Kevin Elko, in 2018 he brought in Belichick/Doug Penderson/McCarthy (Packers) and Kevin Elko.

Auburn has a whole different mind set.  Whoo Hoo! 🌞

It looks like Malzahn has a totally different network he is connected to in the football world than Saban does. 

I can see a mix of college coaches, non-sports speakers, and NFL coaches. But for Gus to not bring in any NFL coach, would seem to not be as interesting to college football players, many of them top level players, whose major goal is to get to the NFL.

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2 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

Based on this alone you would be correct.  I would look above to my post as well.  It isn't just coaches he has brought in for perspective.  It is other avenues like the Seal team and those mission trips.  It is a more out of the box perspective.  Thanks for listing out the coaches who came in though, I did not know that.  

I'm glad you listed the mission trips the team has participated in over the years, it teaches humility for others and they get a wonderful opportunity to spread the Word.  The Navy Seal training is phenomenal and I'd love to see these senior oline-men take another round with those Navy Seals, they need some remedial training on toughness.

The only point I was trying to make is that AU's staff has a different mind set. 

While our main rivals are bringing in Super Bowl winning coaches with years of experience, Auburn's bringing in former coaches some of which haven't even been in the job for 5-10 yrs.  There is simply no comparison between Mack Brown/Bill Clark and Bill Belichick/Sean McVay. 

Some people bring up all the cheating going on at our rival programs, and the NCAA favoritism, paying off refs as a reason why they are producing at a much higher level, and no doubt there is some truth to that.  But when you see the lengths they are willing to go to to educate, prepare, and develop the mental and physical aspect of their staff and players, there is a huge divide between what Auburn does and what they are doing.

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4 minutes ago, keesler said:

I'm glad you listed the mission trips the team has participated in over the years, it teaches humility for others and they get a wonderful opportunity to spread the Word.  The Navy Seal training is phenomenal and I'd love to see these senior oline-men take another round with those Navy Seals, they need some remedial training on toughness.

The only point I was trying to make is that AU's staff has a different mind set. 

While our main rivals are bringing in Super Bowl winning coaches with years of experience, Auburn's bringing in former coaches some of which haven't even been in the job for 5-10 yrs.  There is simply no comparison between Mack Brown/Bill Clark and Bill Belichick/Sean McVay. 

Some people bring up all the cheating going on at our rival programs, and the NCAA favoritism, paying off refs as a reason why they are producing at a much higher level, and no doubt there is some truth to that.  But when you see the lengths they are willing to go to to educate, prepare, and develop the mental and physical aspect of their staff and players, there is a huge divide between what Auburn does and what they are doing.

That is fair.  No rebuttal from me!

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1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Small edit mine.

We'll occasionally see a major exodus on defense- linebackers last year, DL this year- but the difference is Steele is developing the guys behind them in practice and through game reps and, and we don't fall off a cliff when a few guys move on. (We are thin at safety but I don't think it's from negligent recruiting or development. Certainly, the 1s are producing.) 

I won't get into the issues with offensive roster management here. But they are bad and they exist at almost every position group. 

 

My bad I should’ve clarified but the comment I quoted was regarding the offensive coaching staff.

I have no concerns against the defensive staff, but we still are looking for an elite pass rusher and absolutely cannot suffer an injury on the DL or we are gonna have some issues. I’ve been very happy with the defense so far.

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13 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

So basically Gus brings in guys so he can talk and not so he can listen. Sounds about right. 

Jay G Tate did an article regarding Memphis schemes we used vs Tulane. Specifically he was talking about a run play we ran several times. The RT and RG pull while the rest of the line shifts right. Looks like a counter play from the RBs role, but ends up being a power play. Cool design, but out execution on it was subpar (Tate includes film). Hope to see more things like that.

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7 minutes ago, steeleagle said:

It looks like Malzahn has a totally different network he is connected to in the football world than Saban does. 

I can see a mix of college coaches, non-sports speakers, and NFL coaches. But for Gus to not bring in any NFL coach, would seem to not be as interesting to college football players, many of them top level players, whose major goal is to get to the NFL.

It goes back to the relationships some of our rivals have in the NFL.  I can't understand why when Auburn has players in the NFL why in the world hasn't someone in our program taken the opportunity to reach out to the NFL teams and build a relationship over the past decade?  Cam Newton/Jarrett Stidham/Carlton Davis (Bucs)/Sammie Coates (Steelers), the list goes on and on of AU players in the pro's.  

Networks are built over time, connections are created when one entity reaches out to another.  There seems to be no desire in AU's behalf to even attempt to build connections with a higher caliber network.

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5 minutes ago, BigWhiskey91 said:

Jay G Tate did an article regarding Memphis schemes we used vs Tulane. Specifically he was talking about a run play we ran several times. The RT and RG pull while the rest of the line shifts right. Looks like a counter play from the RBs role, but ends up being a power play. Cool design, but out execution on it was subpar (Tate includes film). Hope to see more things like that.

I stand corrected. Sorta. Hah. 

He let Chip do some stuff in the opener last year but most of it went away immediately.

We're throwing to Sal this year. That is probably the main/only positive for me. Other than Bo looking like he will have a chance to be amazing in the right offense. 

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