For Comparison's Sake

[abw0004 10,102]

1 minute ago, Tiger said:

Mullen's proven to be better than Gus IMO. Mullen never recruited in the same stratosphere as Gus/Auburn yet has split the series evenly with us. Mullen is basically matching Gus with one hand.

I think that is fair.  Personally I don't think he will last very long at Florida though unless he cleans up his program.  Miss State let a lot slide where Florida is under a bigger microscope.  I say that wanting Florida to succeed just like I want Tennessee to succeed.  Anything to give UGA a harder time.

[Rednilla 5,383]

17 hours ago, DAG said:

Yes they do and I lived in Arkansas for a substantial time so don’t even dare try to argue me down like a poster in the past has. Arkansas at one point a time , not long ago, did not have any respect for Auburn. Most of them think Gus is a clown and think he is highly overrated and with the right coach they can be back to the Petrino days. Do they expect to win a SEC championship every year? No! But they do expect to win at least 9 games a year most years with an opportunity to compete for the west title. This is a lot coming from a school who does not have the resources we have. Mind you, most of our fans don’t expect to win an SEC championship game every year either . Most of us want consistent 9 win seasons with the opportunity to go to the playoffs when we have the right squad. As you can see, Arkansas has changed several coaches in the last few years. Their new coach will be on a hot seat after this year from the fan base, based on their performance. Gus has had ample amount of time. In fact , historical, Auburn has shown quite a bit of restraint in comparison to a lot of other schools. I don’t agree with the narrative being painted.

Then Arkansas fans are delusional. They have NEVER won the SEC in football. Not even in the Petrino days.

[Rednilla 5,383]

17 hours ago, AUsince72 said:

Since we're playing "what if" here's my take, which means absolutely zilch...

All things being equal if Auburn beats Clemson (YAY!) who do they lose to, in conference, to keep them out of the SECCG (BOO!)?

Okay, we'll pretend LSU finished undefeated in conference and went to the SECCG in place of OUR Tigers...

Therefore, Auburn finishes the regular season 11-1 and assume, also, that Auburn defeats UCF in the Hypothetical Speculation Bowl since there's no deflation from the SECCG performance, that's 12-1.

Since the reality is that Auburn didn't win the SEC anyway, I feel that 12-1 (which now includes beating Clemson, UCF & NOT losing to thUga 2.0) would make the season feel MUCH more successful than 10-4, no SECC anyway, giving the thUga win right back to them, plus the embarrassing (National Championship?) performance against UCF.

Of course, even with Auburn going 11-1 & 12-1 LSU losing the SECCG, bammer would still be in the playoffs over either Tiger team.... 

The only reason I brought out the what-if game is to demonstrate that losing 4 games is not quite the same thing when one of those games is the SEC Championship Game. But if we beat Clemson, we could have easily lost to UGA or UAT and finished the season 10-2, with Alabama going to the SECCG even if we beat them due to the fact that they would have had only 1 conference loss and we'd have had 2.

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

Then Arkansas fans are delusional. They have NEVER won the SEC in football. Not even in the Petrino days.

But they were a team that could beat any other team in the SEC on any given day- damned near beat us in 2010- and had two consecutive 10-win seasons which is something that's never happened here. They know that the right coach can win big there and they are demanding that the right coach be found. 

Sad that Arkansas fans are less tolerant of mediocrity than a lot of Auburn fans. 

[DAG 33,949]

8 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

Then Arkansas fans are delusional. They have NEVER won the SEC in football. Not even in the Petrino days.

Exactly . It’s not as bad here as the narrative makes it.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, Rednilla said:

The only reason I brought out the what-if game is to demonstrate that losing 4 games is not quite the same thing when one of those games is the SEC Championship Game. But if we beat Clemson, we could have easily lost to UGA or UAT and finished the season 10-2, with Alabama going to the SECCG even if we beat them due to the fact that they would have had only 1 conference loss and we'd have had 2.

Huh? Why are you saying that? Beating Clemson- and LSU, which we 100% should have- would have had no bearing on whether or not we win Amen Corner. None of what you're saying makes any sense. 

 

 

[Rednilla 5,383]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

Huh? Why are you saying that? Beating Clemson- and LSU, which we 100% should have- would have had no bearing on whether or not we win Amen Corner. None of what you're saying makes any sense. 

You don't want it to make sense, therein lies the problem. We've clashed about this very point before. You laughed at me, ridiculed me even, for daring suggest that it's different to lose 4 games when one of them was the conference championship. 

But here it is, laid out for you: Yes, we lost 4 games in 2017. My proposition is for losing 2 SEC games--instead of Clemson and 1 SEC game--and not making it to the SEC Championship. We still win 10 games in that scenario, but we only lose 3, not 4, since we don't play for the SEC Championship. Is that REALLY better than making the SEC Championship Game and losing? It's not a 4 loss season, so it's not as bad, right?

[Rednilla 5,383]

11 minutes ago, DAG said:

Exactly . It’s not as bad here as the narrative makes it.

This is my point to a tee. I'm not saying we shouldn't hold Gus accountable. We should. I've already stated in this thread that he's starting to wear thin even on me. But if you look at the numbers and take into account the fact that Malzahn has only 7 years of college head coaching experience, maybe he's not as bad as the popular narrative makes him out to be.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

You don't want it to make sense, therein lies the problem. We've clashed about this very point before. You laughed at me, ridiculed me even, for daring suggest that it's different to lose 4 games when one of them was the conference championship. 

But here it is, laid out for you: Yes, we lost 4 games in 2017. My proposition is for losing 2 SEC games--instead of Clemson and 1 SEC game--and not making it to the SEC Championship. We still win 10 games in that scenario, but we only lose 3, not 4, since we don't play for the SEC Championship. Is that REALLY better than making the SEC Championship Game and losing? It's not a 4 loss season, so it's not as bad, right?

Lol. Saying it again doesn't make it make sense. No, getting to Atlanta once every 4 years doesn't make losing 4 games any better.

Now, would we judge a 4-loss season differently if it came immediately before or after another 10-win season? Yeah, probably so. Nobody really paid attention to what a terrible job Gus did in 2011. We judged 2014 pretty leniently, too. We thought 2015 was going to be one of the greatest seasons of all time. That was a long time ago. 

[Rednilla 5,383]

4 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Lol. Saying it again doesn't make it make sense. No, getting to Atlanta once every 4 years doesn't make losing 4 games any better.

Now, would we judge a 4-loss season differently if it came immediately before or after another 10-win season? Yeah, probably so. Nobody really paid attention to what a terrible job Gus did in 2011. We judged 2014 pretty leniently, too. We thought 2015 was going to be one of the greatest seasons of all time. That was a long time ago. 

You're not understanding my proposition at all. You and so many others get all up in arms about Gus only having one season in which he lost less than 4 games. My point is that if he hadn't made the SEC Championship Game in 2017, he wouldn't have lost 4 games. 

Better put: Would you rather be 10-4 and SEC West champs or 10-3 and second in the West?

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, Rednilla said:

You're not understanding my proposition at all. You and so many others get all up in arms about Gus only having one season in which he lost less than 4 games. My point is that if he hadn't made the SEC Championship Game in 2017, he wouldn't have lost 4 games. 

Better put: Would you rather be 10-4 and SEC West champs or 10-3 and second in the West?

Haha, man, I totally understand what you're trying to say. So do so many others. You're not saying anything complex. 

As for your other hypothetical minus all the what ifs, I'd have to see how the season played out. But I can't imagine a scenario where 4 losses are better than 3. Winning the West ultimately meant nothing. And, boy, did it mean nothing in a really big way. 

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

18 hours ago, SumterAubie said:

 

Not necessarily, if you consider where some of them coached. I would say Mack Brown, at Tulane and then NC, faced tougher competition based on what he had vs his opponents. And Sabn at Michigan State. He was likely playing against Michigan and Ohio State every year. And MIles at OK state was in a weaker position than Gus at Auburn

Ooooh disagree with you on this one. Gus consistently has to play schedules full of top 20 teams. At ACC/Big ten schools, you might get 3 in a season. 

[Rednilla 5,383]

14 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Nobody really paid attention to what a terrible job Gus did in 2011.

Wait, so now 2011 was Gus's fault? That would mean he gets the credit for 2010, which means he's a coach that has taken Auburn to the national championship game twice in the last decade and won it once, the first national title at Auburn in more than half a century. Yet you and a lot of other people on this board want to run him off?

By the way, I don't think Gus did a bad job in 2011, all things considered. We lost our Heisman winning QB early to the draft and our entire offensive line, yet still produced more than 2,000 yards passing and a 1,200 yard runner. All of our losses came to teams in the top 15 except for Clemson, which was taking the first step toward becoming the behemoth it is now. We even beat a top 10 South Carolina team.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, tigerbrotha12 said:

Ooooh disagree with you on this one. Gus consistently has to play schedules full of top 20 teams. At ACC/Big ten schools, you might get 3 in a season. 

"based on what he had vs his opponents"

Gus plays top teams but Gus also has a top 7 team in terms of recruiting ranking average over the last 4 years. 

[fredst 9,064]

Have we lowered our expectations to the point that winning our division in the conference is important enough to overlook the other shortcomings? Would we be happy losing 4-5 games every year if it meant we won our division? The SECW is really tough but winning it gets us very little if that's the best we can do. Man, I hope we haven't reached the point where we celebrate a division championship except as a jumping off point to more. If we have then what we have now is the best that we'll ever be and, frankly, I think that mindset is part of the problem with Auburn historically. Hell, we've been willing to accept mediocrity in exchange for a win over Bammer. As @GwillMac6 has said repeatedly, Auburn is great enough that we should expect (and I think that we deserve) more. JMO.

[Rednilla 5,383]

14 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Haha, man, I totally understand what you're trying to say. So do so many others. You're not saying anything complex. 

Then what I'm saying makes sense, you just don't agree with it.
 

16 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

As for your other hypothetical minus all the what ifs, I'd have to see how the season played out. But I can't imagine a scenario where 4 losses are better than 3. Winning the West ultimately meant nothing. And, boy, did it mean nothing in a really big way. 

That's exactly parallel to saying that winning the SEC ultimately means nothing if you don't win the national championship. Know who else has that attitude? I'll give you a hint: they wear crimson and white.

[dyehardfanAU 2,117]

26 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

You're not understanding my proposition at all. You and so many others get all up in arms about Gus only having one season in which he lost less than 4 games. My point is that if he hadn't made the SEC Championship Game in 2017, he wouldn't have lost 4 games. 

Better put: Would you rather be 10-4 and SEC West champs or 10-3 and second in the West?

Another way to look at it is if we'd have won the SECCG we wouldn't have lost 4 games.  No reason to make excuses for another loss.

[Rednilla 5,383]

1 minute ago, fredst said:

Have we lowered our expectations to the point that winning our division in the conference is important enough to overlook the other shortcomings? Would we be happy losing 4-5 games every year if it meant we won our division? The SECW is really tough but winning it gets us very little if that's the best we can do. Man, I hope we haven't reached the point where we celebrate a division championship except as a jumping off point to more. If we have then what we have now is the best that we'll ever be and, frankly, I think that mindset is part of the problem with Auburn historically. Hell, we've been willing to accept mediocrity in exchange for a win over Bammer. As @GwillMac6 has said repeatedly, Auburn is great enough that we should expect (and I think that we deserve) more. JMO.

My point is not based on overlooking other shortcomings, my point is that losing 4 games when you win 10 of them is not the same as losing 4 games when you win only 8, as has been the case every other time Malzahn's team has lost 4 games.

[Rednilla 5,383]

1 minute ago, dyehardfanAU said:

Another way to look at it is if we'd have won the SECCG we wouldn't have lost 4 games.  No reason to make excuses for another loss.

I'm not making an excuse for the loss. I'm pointing out that it's different.

[GwillMac6 20,574]

4 minutes ago, fredst said:

Have we lowered our expectations to the point that winning our division in the conference is important enough to overlook the other shortcomings? Would we be happy losing 4-5 games every year if it meant we won our division? The SECW is really tough but winning it gets us very little if that's the best we can do. Man, I hope we haven't reached the point where we celebrate a division championship except as a jumping off point to more. If we have then what we have now is the best that we'll ever be and, frankly, I think that mindset is part of the problem with Auburn historically. Hell, we've been willing to accept mediocrity in exchange for a win over Bammer. As @GwillMac6 has said repeatedly, Auburn is great enough that we should expect (and I think that we deserve) more. JMO.

Me and @McLoofus have been talking about this. If we can win some kind of championships and/or go undefeated with Terry Bowden, Tubs, Chiz and Gus then think what we could actually do when we hire a actual good coach. None of those dudes are good coaches. They are average at best. Auburn is so great that we actually had some success and won a championship or went undefeated under 4 different coaches who no one would mistake for being a actual good coach. We are the biggest sleeping giant in the sport. We can be what clemson is by hiring either Urbs or Stoops. There will be no other time when 2 college football legends are both under 60 and free agents on the market. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, Rednilla said:

Then what I'm saying makes sense, you just don't agree with it.
 

That's exactly parallel to saying that winning the SEC ultimately means nothing if you don't win the national championship. Know who else has that attitude? I'll give you a hint: they wear crimson and white.

You're super wrong about literally everything you just said. And it's incredibly lame and pathetic to do that "dur hur ur a bammer" crap. 
 

7 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

Wait, so now 2011 was Gus's fault? That would mean he gets the credit for 2010

Orrrrrr maybe it really highlights what Gus is capable of with merely good, SEC-level talent instead of the greatest athlete to ever play QB? 
 

9 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

By the way, I don't think Gus did a bad job in 2011, all things considered.

I know. And I'll be honest. This, I could never possibly comprehend. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, GwillMac6 said:

Me and @McLoofus have been talking about this. If we can win some kind of championships and/or go undefeated with Terry Bowden, Tubs, Chiz and Gus then think what we could actually do when we hire a actual good coach. None of those dudes are good coaches. They are average at best. Auburn is so great that we actually had some success and won a championship or went undefeated under 4 different coaches who no one would mistake for being a actual good coach. We are the biggest sleeping giant in the sport. We can be what clemson is by hiring either Urbs or Stoops. There will be no other time when 2 college football legends are both under 60 and free agents on the market. 

But Tennessee!

[dyehardfanAU 2,117]

8 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

My point is not based on overlooking other shortcomings, my point is that losing 4 games when you win 10 of them is not the same as losing 4 games when you win only 8, as has been the case every other time Malzahn's team has lost 4 games.

A loss is a loss is a loss.  Gus has 25 of them in the previous 5 seasons.

[Rednilla 5,383]

Just now, McLoofus said:

You're super wrong about literally everything you just said. And it's incredibly lame and pathetic to do that "dur hur ur a bammer" crap. 

No, I'm not wrong about anything I said in that post. And I didn't say you were a bammer, I said you resemble them. If you can't see the logic inherent in my statements, that's on you, not me.

 

Just now, McLoofus said:

Orrrrrr maybe it really highlights what Gus is capable of with merely good, SEC-level talent instead of the greatest athlete to ever play QB? 

It wasn't just Cam. It was the offensive line, too. We had 5 seniors starting on the offensive front in 2010, three of whom had started since they were freshmen.

And I guess what Gus did with Nick Marshall doesn't count, since we didn't win the national championship in 2013, right?

[SumterAubie 3,031]

18 hours ago, SumterAubie said:

 

Not necessarily, if you consider where some of them coached. I would say Mack Brown, at Tulane and then NC, faced tougher competition based on what he had vs his opponents. And Sabn at Michigan State. He was likely playing against Michigan and Ohio State every year. And MIles at OK state was in a weaker position than Gus at Auburn

 

17 minutes ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

Ooooh disagree with you on this one. Gus consistently has to play schedules full of top 20 teams. At ACC/Big ten schools, you might get 3 in a season. 

Well I pointed out it was unfair to compare coaching records after 7 years as Malzahn started in a stronger program than the coaches being compared. Then the OP pointed out, as you just did, Auburn plays a tougher schedule. Which is relative. As I tried to show in the quote of mine you cited. Some coaches in that list started out at bottom feeder schools, where all the games are difficult, full of top 20 teams or not.