For Comparison's Sake

[Rednilla 5,383]

2 minutes ago, dyehardfanAU said:

A loss is a loss is a loss.  Gus has 25 of them in the previous 5 seasons.

That loss wouldn't have come if we hadn't already won 7 conference games during the season. I'm not defending the other four seasons Gus has coached since 2013, just the one where we beat two #1 teams in a stretch of three weekends and came within one game of making the playoffs. Were any of the other four seasons anywhere close to that successful?

[dyehardfanAU 2,117]

2 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

That loss wouldn't have come if we hadn't already won 7 conference games during the season. I'm not defending the other four seasons Gus has coached since 2013, just the one where we beat two #1 teams in a stretch of three weekends and came within one game of making the playoffs. Were any of the other four seasons anywhere close to that successful?

No, none of the last four seasons were nearly as successful.  Gus still had 4 losses in 2017.  They are not mutually exclusive.  I'm not sure what's so hard to comprehend about that.

[Rednilla 5,383]

Just now, dyehardfanAU said:

No, none of the other seasons were nearly as successful.  Gus still had 4 losses in 2017.  They are not mutually exclusive.  I'm not sure what's so hard to comprehend about that.

You just admitted the point I've been making: losing 4 games in 2017 was not the same as the other seasons we had 4+ losses. I don't know what's so hard to comprehend about that.

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

10 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

 

Well I pointed out it was unfair to compare coaching records after 7 years as Malzahn started in a stronger program than the coaches being compared. Then the OP pointed out, as you just did, Auburn plays a tougher schedule. Which is relative. As I tried to show in the quote of mine you cited. Some coaches in that list started out at bottom feeder schools, where all the games are difficult, full of top 20 teams or not.

That's true, but then we're back to Gus was at Arkansas State, a school in which he had tough games almost every week as well. 

[dyehardfanAU 2,117]

Just now, Rednilla said:

You just admitted the point I've been making: losing 4 games in 2017 was not the same as the other seasons we had 4+ losses. I don't know what's so hard to comprehend about that.

Again, a loss is a loss is a loss.  It was exactly the same as every loss before it and every loss to come.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

That's true, but then we're back to Gus was at Arkansas State, a school in which he had tough games almost every week as well. 

Arkansas State was already very strong relative to their conference. That cannot be said of Michigan State, Oklahoma State or North Carolina.

[Rednilla 5,383]

2 minutes ago, dyehardfanAU said:

Again, a loss is a loss is a loss.  It was exactly the same as every loss before it and every loss to come.

*Sigh* Losing a bonus game that you got to based upon winning is not the same as losing a game that would have been played anyway.

Whatever. You're obviously not going to budge, and I'm not either. Agree to disagree.

[dyehardfanAU 2,117]

5 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

*Sigh* Losing a bonus game that you got to based upon winning is not the same as losing a game that would have been played anyway.

Whatever. You're obviously not going to budge, and I'm not either. Agree to disagree.

I'm not sure how a loss is not a loss but I won't point out that you're wrong again.  FWIW, Gus is paid $7M a year to win games, regardless of if they're "bonus" games or not.

[toddc 13,194]

57 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

You're not understanding my proposition at all. You and so many others get all up in arms about Gus only having one season in which he lost less than 4 games. My point is that if he hadn't made the SEC Championship Game in 2017, he wouldn't have lost 4 games. 

Better put: Would you rather be 10-4 and SEC West champs or 10-3 and second in the West?

Doesn’t seem that hard to understand and I agree with that!

[Slammer1 409]

20 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

I don't want to clone Saban, I'd like to have some of those players...and most of their rent-free vehicles though.

I agree about cloning saban. You have to remember he has some very distinct advantages over every one else!  He has the REC behind him that buy all the five stars and we can't forget Steve Shaw, head of the SEC refs. I can't remember the year but bama went over 500 offensive plays without a holding call. That is complete BS! IMO he is an average game day coach at best and if he didn't have the advantages I have mentioned he and bama  would not be at the level of esteem that everyone holds them. If and when Emmeret  goes and someone besides a bama grad takes over the SEC refs nothing will change. He was just the average coach at Miami, he did nothing spectacular in the pros where he had none of the advantages he now enjoys at bama. JMO.

WDE!!!

[Rednilla 5,383]

Just now, dyehardfanAU said:

I'm not sure how a loss is not a loss but I won't point out that you're wrong again.

You won't? Then what was this? 

For the record, I didn't say a loss is not a loss, I said there are differences in the circumstances of the loss.

Now, feel free to get the last word in, I won't fight it anymore.

[SumterAubie 3,031]

14 minutes ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

That's true, but then we're back to Gus was at Arkansas State, a school in which he had tough games almost every week as well. 

One year for Malzahn at Arkansas State is not quite the same as Mack Brown's 4 years at Tulane. Or sbn's 4 at MSU.

[keesler 5,924]

5 hours ago, NoALtiger said:

I really feel it’s our overall league record and our abysmal record against our primary rivals that really gets people mad, not our overall winning percentage during the Malzahn era. Who we lose to and how we’ve lost plays a huge factor in to this, for good or bad. 

Thank You!  Like this hasn't been said a thousand times.

Try showing UGA, LSU, UAT, MSU Gus' winning percentage and they will laugh in your face.  It's a freaking joke!

UGA 2-5/LSU  2-4/UAT  2-4/MSU  3-3

 

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

9 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Arkansas State was already very strong relative to their conference. That cannot be said of Michigan State, Oklahoma State or North Carolina.

That 2012 season that Malzahn coached there, they went to No.5 Oregon and No. 24 Nebraska. They also played a Kent State team that played in the MAC Championship and had beaten No.18 Rutgers that season, they played an 8 win Louisiana Lafayette team (8 wins is good for Sun Belt), and 8 win La Monroe team, and an 8 win MTSU team. They also were beat by a good WKU team that finished the season with 7 wins. They were certainly top tier in their conference and had just won a Sun Belt Championship, but they had some tough opponents relative to their conference. I'm not necessarily saying Malzahn had it tough there because he did have a very good team, I'm just saying he plays some tough games, just like the rest of em. 

[GwillMac6 20,664]

7 minutes ago, Slammer1 said:

I agree about cloning saban. You have to remember he has some very distinct advantages over every one else!  He has the REC behind him that buy all the five stars and we can't forget Steve Shaw, head of the SEC refs. I can't remember the year but bama went over 500 offensive plays without a holding call. That is complete BS! IMO he is an average game day coach at best and if he didn't have the advantages I have mentioned he and bama  would not be at the level of esteem that everyone holds them. If and when Emmeret  goes and someone besides a bama grad takes over the SEC refs nothing will change. He was just the average coach at Miami, he did nothing spectacular in the pros where he had none of the advantages he now enjoys at bama. JMO.

WDE!!!

Perkins, curry, dubose, franchione and Shula all had the REC backing as well and all brought in talent. At some point you actually got to be able to ya know..... Coach!!! And none of those dudes did it well at a consistent level. They all had the same built in advantages that saban has.

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

5 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

One year for Malzahn at Arkansas State is not quite the same as Mack Brown's 4 years at Tulane. Or sbn's 4 at MSU.

Exactly! I would argue Malzahn has had a tougher job starting his career in the SEC earlier than many other coaches. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

28 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

And I guess what Gus did with Nick Marshall doesn't count, since we didn't win the national championship in 2013, right?

Gus did an amazing job that season. Which, to my point, is why we thought 2014 wasn't as bad as it was. And probably even why I was still making excuses in 2015.

Turns out the losses in those seasons were par for the course after all. Which is why the four losses in 2017 aren't mitigated by one good November. Losing multiple games that he shouldn't is what Gus does. Even in The seasons when he wins a couple he shouldn't.

[SumterAubie 3,031]

4 minutes ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

Exactly! I would argue Malzahn has had a tougher job starting his career in the SEC earlier than many other coaches. 

Okay. I don't agree. Sure Malzahn has had to face tough SEC teams. But. Malzahn, at Auburn, started with a better program, better facilities, better fan base, better name brand than any coach on Rednilla's list but for Fisher at FSU. Auburn, as a program, is on par with most schools or better than,  in the SEC, except for bamr, uga, and lsu. Do you really think Michigan State''s program was top tier while sabn was there. Or Tulane's while Brown was there.

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

5 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

Okay. I don't agree. Sure Malzahn has had to face tough SEC teams. But. Malzahn, at Auburn, started with a better program, better facilities, better fan base, better name brand than any coach on Rednilla's list but for Fisher at FSU. Auburn, as a program, is on par with most schools or better than,  in the SEC, except for bamr, uga, and lsu. Do you really think Michigan State''s program was top tier while sabn was there. Or Tulane's while Brown was there.

No I don't think they were top tier, but I also don't think they played the gauntlet of a schedule that Malzahn seems to be tasked with every single year. 

[Slammer1 409]

10 minutes ago, GwillMac6 said:

Perkins, curry, dubose, franchione and Shula all had the REC backing as well and all brought in talent. At some point you actually got to be able to ya know..... Coach!!! And none of those dudes did it well at a consistent level.

 

11 minutes ago, GwillMac6 said:

Perkins, curry, dubose, franchione and Shula all had the REC backing as well and all brought in talent. At some point you actually got to be able to ya know..... Coach!!! And none of those dudes did it well at a consistent level.

I agree with what you say. Not one of the coaches you mentioned did anything spectacular. I am just saying saban  is smart and knows HOW to take advantage of what he has at his disposal. 

[keesler 5,924]

1 hour ago, Rednilla said:

This is my point to a tee. I'm not saying we shouldn't hold Gus accountable. We should. I've already stated in this thread that he's starting to wear thin even on me. But if you look at the numbers and take into account the fact that Malzahn has only 7 years of college head coaching experience, maybe he's not as bad as the popular narrative makes him out to be.

Gus is not BAD - He is good.

If Auburn is satisfied with good then we've got our man.

I can't help but wonder why in the world does he stay on the perpetual hot seat?  Where did all those trashy rumors & reports from Josh Moon/Jay Tate/Phillip Marshall pour out of the AD after that dismal Iron Bowl loss last year?  Where have "the money's there" comments come from?

 

 

 

[bigbird 60,460]

26 minutes ago, GwillMac6 said:

Perkins, curry, dubose, franchione and Shula all had the REC backing as well and all brought in talent. At some point you actually got to be able to ya know..... Coach!!! And none of those dudes did it well at a consistent level. They all had the same built in advantages that saban has.

They didn't have carte blanche from the president of the NCAA though.

FTR, Saban is a very good CEO and great defensive mind

[Rednilla 5,383]

12 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Gus did an amazing job that season. Which, to my point, is why we thought 2014 wasn't as bad as it was. And probably even why I was still making excuses in 2015.

Turns out the losses in those seasons were par for the course after all. Which is why the four losses in 2017 aren't mitigated by one good November. Losing multiple games that he shouldn't is what Gus does. Even in The seasons when he wins a couple he shouldn't.

Your opinion. I think that November, combined with the other wins in 2017, should have bought him the time it did. I don't think it should have given him the dollars it did, but in today's atmosphere, the buyout is the only thing that has kept him around. Personally, I think he should be exactly where he is, all things considered. If we go 7-5, he's probably gone. If we go 8-4, he probably stays, but his seat will be blisteringly hot next season. If we go 9-3 (and don't get embarrassed by our three biggest rivals), he's at about an even keel. If we go 10-2, most Auburn fans are happy. If we go 11-1, we're probably in the playoffs.

Of course, if we end up 11-3 with a loss in the SEC Championship Game and a let down in a New Year's Six bowl, people like you will likely still be screaming for his head, because we will have won essentially nothing. Right?

[Rednilla 5,383]

9 minutes ago, keesler said:

Gus is not BAD - He is good.

If Auburn is satisfied with good then we've got our man.

I can't help but wonder why in the world does he stay on the perpetual hot seat?  Where did all those trashy rumors & reports from Josh Moon/Jay Tate/Phillip Marshall pour out of the AD after that dismal Iron Bowl loss last year?  Where have "the money's there" comments come from?

Back to the point of the thread, I think he's good with the potential to be better as he gets farther into his tenure as a college head coach. It's that potential which gives me hope.

[Slammer1 409]

5 minutes ago, bigbird said:

They didn't have carte blanche from the president of the NCAA though.

FTR, Saban is a very good CEO and great defensive mind

That's my point and it is a huge one.