Marshall: Paying players

[DAG 33,977]

7 minutes ago, Beenjammin said:

Why come to college at all. Let them be drafted right out of HS then if they want them, like baseball and put them in camps until they are ready and pay them then.

Cant pay student athletes. It will set up the schools with the most money a terrible unfair advantage and kill the sport. Im sure it happens under the table and off the books.... fine  keep it that way. If they start paying them im done buying tickets. I would have paid Auburn to sit the bench with the team if I could have played at all. 

Iono about high school but maybe allowing players to have the option to become draft eligible after freshman year. At the end of they day it’s their choice if they want to take that risk. Many more players are playing earlier than in the past. 

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

How about we pay  athletes $30 per hour, free meals, Free training programs,  but they have to  compete for the same scholarships based on the same criteria as everyone else?

 

Basically the same as every student,  but with the highest paying jobs  of anyone on campus.

[DAG 33,977]

1 hour ago, WalkingCarpet said:

I get people not wanting to "pay the players" but every time I read an article like this it makes me think the old guard is comfortable with the amount of corruption that has existed in the college game for decades and are fine looking the other way. The NFL is never going to invest in a minor league because NCAA football is already a minor league and there's no fan appetite for another football league. There's barely a fan appetite for the NFL right now with how uncompetitive the league has been for the last 6-8 years in addition to the mismanagement by Goodell and the owners. I get the slippery slope argument but why is it wrong for a player to go sign autographs at a car dealership and make some cash? It's not going to be unlimited money being thrown around by the Phil Knights and Boone Pickens of the world like some people think. There's going to be regulations and rules that people haven't discussed yet. College football isn't going to just "end," there's too much money and fan engagement for it to just go away. 

What is exactly are these regulations and rules, you mention ?

[Sizzle 3,912]

2 hours ago, AUght2win said:

It will make college football a profession for 18 year old kids. There will be agents. It will be a lot more gross than it currently is. Besides, I have yet to see anyone explain how it will work. Every D1 kid gets paid equally? An arbitrator determines their worth? Does their pay go up if they go from zero to hero (Baker Mayfield going from walk-on to Heisman). And how will we keep other sports afloat when they depend entirely on the money football generates? 

It’s already a profession now. They just don’t get paid. It’s a legit minor league 

2 hours ago, looney said:

I don't think there's any way to say this definitively without knowing what the system would look like, in addition to the myriad considerations presented above (attorneys, law suits, agents, worker's comp, limits on spending, etc.).

I’m sure it wouldn’t. They still have to perform at a high level to make it to the league which is most of these guys main goal anyway

[oldaufeller 367]

Pay them. OK.  What is their open market value? Say they quit school and went pro tomorrow  Sell yourself.  How well does that name & likeness value stand up in the open market? Are they valued because of their name or their name associated with a particular team of which the institution owns ALL rights.  If you took housing, meals and training programs alone, without the tuition, stipend, tutors, travel, equipment allowance, insurance ,... it stifles what the free market pays toward players in farm teams and minor leagues.  Scholar athletes get compensated far more.  See this post:

Only 2% go pro and only a small percent of them will have significant "name" value. This is an extreme edge case.  98% get a heck of a deal.  22 NCAA sports @ Auburn with 530+ athletes.  How many turn a profit to pay the player?  Tennis?  Golf?  Soccer?  Volleyball? 

NCAA can't pay them. If NCAA spent the entire retained earnings on the 460,000 athletes for 2018 it would come to $83 and some change.  The schools would have to pay them; something I'm sure they'd love to do given the current (hostile and rightly so) environment over student debt.  Keep in mind even in the pros 16 NBA teams operate at a net loss.  NFL teams are profitable after the owner has invested billions in capital for infrastructure.  I don't want to be a  jerk to these players but the schools can't afford to onboard these costs.

So we're left with selling yourself in the "open" market. How does that work?   Just take cash for your name at the local mall?  

Also keep in mind that MOST scholarships for advanced degrees require the student to NOT receive money from any other source.  In the same way, by contract recording artists and models cannot sell their name & likeness outside their contracts, as the companies holding their contract have compensated them for that privilege.  This is not new ground, just new to amature athletics.   JMHO

EDIT: As a addenda, I really would like to know the amount these players are being shafted.  Is there a figure out there or a driving cause? I really want to be fair and just.  Who is the poster child for amature athletic financial abuse? 

[DAG 33,977]

1 minute ago, oldaufeller said:

Pay them. OK.  What is their open market value? Say they quit school and went pro tomorrow  Sell yourself.  How well does that name & likeness value stand up in the open market? Are they valued because of their name or their name associated with a particular team of which the institution owns ALL rights.  If you took housing, meals and training programs alone, without the tuition, stipend, tutors, travel, equipment allowance, insurance ,... it stifles what the free market pays toward players in farm teams and minor leagues.  Scholar athletes get compensated far more.  See this post:

Only 2% go pro and only a small percent of them will have significant "name" value. This is an extreme edge case.  98% get a heck of a deal.  22 NCAA sports @ Auburn with 530+ athletes.  How many turn a profit to pay the player?  Tennis?  Golf?  Soccer?  Volleyball? 

NCAA can't pay them. If NCAA spent the entire retained earnings on the 460,000 athletes for 2018 it would come to $83 and some change.  The schools would have to pay them; something I'm sure they'd love to do given the current (hostile and rightly so) environment over student debt.  Keep in mind even in the pros 16 NBA teams operate at a net loss.  NFL teams are profitable after the owner has invested billions in capital for infrastructure.  I don't want to be a  jerk to these players but the schools can't afford to onboard these costs.

So we're left with selling yourself in the "open" market. How does that work?   Just take cash for your name at the local mall?  

Also keep in mind that MOST scholarships for advanced degrees require the student to NOT receive money from any other source.  In the same way, by contract recording artists and models cannot sell their name & likeness outside their contracts, as the companies holding their contract have compensated them for that privilege.  This is not new ground, just new to amature athletics.   JMHO

 

You seem to be really knowledgable and passionate about this. In your opinion, what would be the best way to regulate pay for play to make sure the its balanced among all P5 schools, if anything?

[oldaufeller 367]

11 minutes ago, DAG said:

You seem to be really knowledgable and passionate about this. In your opinion, what would be the best way to regulate pay for play to make sure the its balanced among all P5 schools, if anything?

Dag - Great question. I do want fairness but every approach I have thought of has failures. 

Percent of gate (like we would pay entertainers) shifts Auburn football proceeds out of other programs.  Certain sports don't collect money that way (we'd be lucky to have 18-20 at our soccer match.)  Smaller schools - well don't go there.

More stipend? Maybe

Funding that outside the institution? As soon as that path starts players get bought.  The wealthy schools win.  Read the University of Nike

Funding managed by a national external group (not named NCAA!)  I don't see it getting funded.

I am open to ideas.  I am still in the "they are compensated by scholarship" crowd until i see the light.  I am open to ideas. (If I don't answer I'm stepping away - Be back later.) Thanks 

[DAG 33,977]

13 minutes ago, oldaufeller said:

Dag - Great question. I do want fairness but every approach I have thought of has failures. 

Percent of gate (like we would pay entertainers) shifts Auburn football proceeds out of other programs.  Certain sports don't collect money that way (we'd be lucky to have 18-20 at our soccer match.)  Smaller schools - well don't go there.

More stipend? Maybe

Funding that outside the institution? As soon as that path starts players get bought.  The wealthy schools win.  Read the University of Nike

Funding managed by a national external group (not named NCAA!)  I don't see it getting funded.

I am open to ideas.  I am still in the "they are compensated by scholarship" crowd until i see the light.  I am open to ideas. (If I don't answer I'm stepping away - Be back later.) Thanks 

Yes I am not against paying for play , but I am not for just allowing it until I can see a clear path of checks and balances. 

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

Players have been paid for college football for years! No, I do not mean behind the scenes either. They get hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of an education, free networking that will help them throughout the rest of their life, and a chance to be semi-famous or sometimes really famous. They get a kick start on life, even if they started a mile behind. I know it isn't easy being a student athlete, but they also get additional help. They get tutors that non athletes may not be able to get. Some families go into massive debt that they will spend the rest of their life paying off just to put their kids through school to give them a head start. If this happens, it is the beginning of the end of College Football, or at least the version we all have come to love. What about all the other athletes? How do they decide what the gymnastics team get compared to the football team? We know in today's society everybody wants everything to appear "equal and fair" when in actuality, Football is the sport that brings in money so it is fair for them to get the majority of funds if we go to this. 

[CR 2,442]

About 5 schools are already getting most of the best players. As long as the 85/25 stays in effect how would that change if they were paid?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

3 hours ago, JDUBB4AU said:

Maybe I am dumb, but Base it off of household income. A lot  of kids have nothing before college and need help, but that help doesn’t need to be 25 year student loans . There has to be a way. 

There is a way.  Allow kids to earn money off of their likeness just like any other citizen in this country.  Schools wouldn't have to pay a cent more if they just let this happen.

[DAG 33,977]

13 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

There is a way.  Allow kids to earn money off of their likeness just like any other citizen in this country.  Schools wouldn't have to pay a cent more if they just let this happen.

That's cool but if that door does happen, I would hope fans wouldn't complain when institutions where marketing is much higher grab these folks. Like, if I am marketing my image, why would I go to Auburn vs USC/Miami/UGA, etc?

[Eagle-1 3,821]

11 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

There is a way.  Allow kids to earn money off of their likeness just like any other citizen in this country.  Schools wouldn't have to pay a cent more if they just let this happen.

So you're saying the star QB is worth more than the backup right tackle, who spends just as much time conditioning, lifting weights, practicing as the QB does? I thought this was about helping the kids out. Pay them, or let them earn money off their likeness,either way is the end of college sports as we know it. 

[DAG 33,977]

Also, Even in the professionals, isn't jerseys sales based on shared revenue? Doesn't NIKE, The association,  and the team get a cut of it all? And even so, isn't the money the player get based on the individual salary? I could be wrong but based on the inter webs , this is what I am getting. If players want to make real money, it would have to be from endorsements.  I am almost positive, I read that jersey sales are distributed evenly among the team (I could be wrong though).

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

I am in the not pay them crowd.  However, if you do end up paying student athletes, then I would insist that they have to actually qualify for the institution that they are enrolling in.  they have to meet at least the same scores that the average student coming in meet.  Why?  Because if you are looking at fairness let's start there.  If we are saying that these kids should be paid etc then they become professionals at an amateur institution and the institution actually would make more money off of the regular student that is paying their own way.  

I personally am not opposed to gaining something from your likeness but do not wear university gear in that commercial, signing, etc...why?  because they are not a licensed entity like the university or they should pay a piece back to the university that goes to pay for scholarships.

 

If we go down this road then there should be a farm league put up by the NFL as mentioned before and keep the college experience the same for those that want to go the college route and enjoy that experience.  My wife and I had to pay our way through college and it was tough to accomplish.  Neither of us had family help as we weren't wealthy.  We worked our buts off to get Aid & scholarships to offset costs.  Tough to work 40 hour a week job and go to school full time but it can be done. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 minutes ago, Eagle-1 said:

So you're saying the star QB is worth more than the backup right tackle, who spends just as much time conditioning, lifting weights, practicing as the QB does? I thought this was about helping the kids out. Pay them, or let them earn money off their likeness,either way is the end of college sports as we know it. 

I'm saying it's America and you are worth what someone is willing to pay you. College football has almost always been about the money and the glorification of a school, not the kids.  In the 1920s when Bama really rose to power, they did so because resources were put into football which in turn helped draw a larger enrollment.  It was never about "getting players an education".

If people are so adamant about the purity of the sport, then go watch Division 3.  There are no athletic scholarships at that level.  

[DAG 33,977]

https://money.cnn.com/2016/09/07/news/companies/colin-kaepernick-donating-money-jersey-nfl/

So it looks like 2/3rds of Jersey revenue goes to the players in the NFL. 1/3 goes to the union. I don't know how accurate this is, but this is what I got.

[DAG 33,977]

https://www.cnbc.com/id/35691058

In the NBA it is equal among everyone. Very interesting.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

9 minutes ago, DAG said:

That's cool but if that door does happen, I would hope fans wouldn't complain when institutions where marketing is much higher grab these folks. Like, if I am marketing my image, why would I go to Auburn vs USC/Miami/UGA, etc?

Agreed.  I wouldn't complain, but I also think those images are worth way more in football mad schools like AU and Bama than USC or Miami where the local populace is pretty apathetic.  But the other factor is kids can also do math and understand that going to play for better coaches means a better chance at long term money.  And coaches go where infrastructure lies.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

4 hours ago, Tigerbelle said:

P Marshall is late to the party...….and he is still living in 1965. Football players could work a summer job back then and make it through to graduation. It was a very different world. 

The REASON that corruption exists is because there is a NEED by the vast majority of these kids who play college football. Most are not from an affluent home and they need money. Pay them something for the use of their name beyond college tuition because they cannot work like most college kids do. It is impossible to make ends meet without some kind of income. I believe they are earning millions for the schools....so share some of it with the players in a structured way that is aboveboard and fair to all involved. It does not have to such a big deal.  And if they take care of it now and work something out it will save the college game. There is no way to justify the exploitation that goes on with the way things are set up currently. 

Other full ride scholarship students can make money from their talents while attending school and nobody whines about "amateur musicians" or "amateur artists" .  A student should be able to use whatever talent they have been given to earn a living. 

 

 i may be wrong, but I don't think we give full rides for musicians anymore.  They are still responsible for the majority of their tuition, food etc..

 

 

[Eagle-1 3,821]

7 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I'm saying it's America and you are worth what someone is willing to pay you. College football has almost always been about the money and the glorification of a school, not the kids.  In the 1920s when Bama really rose to power, they did so because resources were put into football which in turn helped draw a larger enrollment.  It was never about "getting players an education".

If people are so adamant about the purity of the sport, then go watch Division 3.  There are no athletic scholarships at that level.  

If you can't see the can of worms this would open up I'm not about to spend valuable time explaining it. 

Come play for us here at West Vance U, and I promise there will be someone at the local Dodge dealership who'll pay you 50,000 for your autographed jersey.

None of this would solve a perceived problem. Bo Nix could potentially get rich off his likeness while at Auburn, but Bailey Sharp would still not have an extra dime to spend. Just to use a couple of familiar names.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 minute ago, Eagle-1 said:

If you can't see the can of worms this would open up I'm not about to spend valuable time explaining it. 

Come play for us here at West Vance U, and I promise there will be someone at the local Dodge dealership who'll pay you 50,000 for your autographed jersey.

You see a can of worms.  I see capitalism.

[DAG 33,977]

47 minutes ago, CR said:

About 5 schools are already getting most of the best players. As long as the 85/25 stays in effect how would that change if they were paid?

Well I guess it depends on how they are getting paid, but an SMU situation could arrive. Or an Ole Miss situation, where out of nowhere they are racking up top 5 recruiting classes. Again, I am not saying I am completely against it. But don't be upset when you have a situation like Rueben Foster or the recent guy at UGA who all of a sudden flips during national signing day. The assumption being some underneath stuff occurred of course.

[Eagle-1 3,821]

2 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

You see a can of worms.  I see capitalism.

No one is a bigger proponent of capitalism than myself, but it doesn't apply here. College athletics is amateur for a reason.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

34 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

There is a way.  Allow kids to earn money off of their likeness just like any other citizen in this country.  Schools wouldn't have to pay a cent more if they just let this happen.

I am all for this,   and then athletes can pay the Tuition and fees just like every other citizen in this country.  Compete for the same scholarships and loans.  Using the same grading / test score and economic factors as  criteria for these schollies and loans..

Or they can just stay with the 1/4 of a million dollars  given to them over 4 years for tuition while the scholars take on huge student loans.