Trump’s proud of his rationalization for abandoning the Kurds

[TexasTiger 12,828]

[japantiger 4,051]

Or, there's this:

 

[DKW 86 7,419]

From the Montagnards to the Kurds, WE AS A NATION NEVER LEARN THE GREATER POINTS OF HISTORY...

[TexasTiger 12,828]

8 hours ago, japantiger said:

Or, there's this:

 

So you favored Obama leaving Iraq?

[aubiefifty 16,739]

how many times have we abandoned the kurds? this makes me sick. watching the russian troops cheering the turks on as their assault begins will stick with me for a long time. it is no secret the turks want to wipe out the kurds and now it looks like we will let them. all this does is benefit the russians and trumps suck buddy pootin. why the hell do we keep doing things to make russia stronger? and the fact that russia and iran are big buddies makes this even more baffling. i bet israel is pissed as well. none of this makes any sense at all. i want our troops home but we should make sure we take care of those who stood by us when we needed them.

[japantiger 4,051]

Not our fight guys.  The Kurds fought ISIS because it was in their interests.  We were allies with the Soviet Union until their interests came into conflict with ours.  Their is no compelling US interests to confront a NATO ally over this.  This is a hundreds of years old issue.  We have no stake.  Remember when you guys were all up in the air about our treatment of NATO allies; now you want us to fight a NATO ally over the Kurds?  Get your NATO position straight.  

Secondarily, I believe I am the only one on this thread with a dog in this fight.   There are causes that me and my wife understand will put him in harms way in the same way I was many years ago.  This is not one that would be worth his life.  If we are going to fight; it needs to be for a good cause with a defined goal.  Please let me know 1) what is the defined goal of getting into a what is a hundreds of year old domestic dispute with the Turks and the Kurds 2) when do you leave? and 3) how many young American deaths are ok to you?  What is you body bag target?

[aubiefifty 16,739]

19 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Not our fight guys.  The Kurds fought ISIS because it was in their interests.  We were allies with the Soviet Union until their interests came into conflict with ours.  Their is no compelling US interests to confront a NATO ally over this.  This is a hundreds of years old issue.  We have no stake.  Remember when you guys were all up in the air about our treatment of NATO allies; now you want us to fight a NATO ally over the Kurds?  Get your NATO position straight.  

Secondarily, I believe I am the only one on this thread with a dog in this fight.   There are causes that me and my wife understand will put him in harms way in the same way I was many years ago.  This is not one that would be worth his life.  If we are going to fight; it needs to be for a good cause with a defined goal.  Please let me know 1) what is the defined goal of getting into a what is a hundreds of year old domestic dispute with the Turks and the Kurds 2) when do you leave? and 3) how many young American deaths are ok to you?  What is you body bag target?

no one wants to see more american kids dying. especially when in my opinion our treatment of those coming home is lacking.  i do believe there was a better way to handle the situation. would you not agree the kurds with their help has helped save american lives? if we keep leaving our allies twisting in the wind after we are done with them pretty soon our allies are going to start acting like trump and telling us to go screw ourselves and to fight our own damn wars. you know russia and iran are huge allies right? i wonder if we even gave the kurds a heads up to give them time to prepare.

  edit here. did we not basically give the turks permission to go in? and if we did not would they have done so honest question since i might be confused on this issue.

[japantiger 4,051]

6 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

no one wants to see more american kids dying. especially when in my opinion our treatment of those coming home is lacking.  i do believe there was a better way to handle the situation. would you not agree the kurds with their help has helped save american lives? if we keep leaving our allies twisting in the wind after we are done with them pretty soon our allies are going to start acting like trump and telling us to go screw ourselves and to fight our own damn wars. you know russia and iran are huge allies right? i wonder if we even gave the kurds a heads up to give them time to prepare.

  edit here. did we not basically give the turks permission to go in? and if we did not would they have done so honest question since i might be confused on this issue.

"no one wants to see more American kids dying" - but that is precisely what would happen.  

"I do believe there was a better way to handle the situation" - what would you have done?  Allying with the Soviets saved American lives...that doesn't mean we are beholding to them forever in every situation.  This is foreign policy; not middle school.   As GW said (paraphrased); "...Nations act in their interests; we'd better be prepared to act in ours".

"if we keep leaving our allies twisting in the wind after we are done with them pretty soon our allies are going to start acting like trump and telling us to go screw ourselves and to fight our own damn wars." - see previous response directly above.  And, maybe they should...actually, not maybe...every time someone wants us to fight somewhere where we have no business sending young Americans; maybe our "allies" should say no.  Do you think they should have done into Iraq with us?  Do you think we would have been better off if 60 nations had said no; not worth it...not our fight?  Then; maybe, just maybe; we'd be a hell of a lot more sober about picking fights.  I find this whole thing funny.  Suddenly, every liberal in the world is a war monger wanting to send young Americans off to die for  what?  The Kurds are our "besties" ?  What ongoing interests do we have with the Kurds?  What ongoing interests do we have with the Turks?  Hint, I can think of  maybe 1 with the Kurds and about 50 with the Turks.  

" edit here. did we not basically give the turks permission to go in? and if we did not would they have done so honest question since i might be confused on this issue." - what difference does it make?    This has been building for nearly 5 years.  The deal with the PKK set this showdown up in 2014.   Do we get sucked in or do we "let the kids work it out".   Oh, getting sucked in means Americans will die.  Picture this: You get out of a car in front of a small home near Fort Hood...or Ft Lewis Washington....or Ft Bragg...or Fort Rucker...You walk up to the house and ring the doorbell.  Ten more of these conversations are happening across the country at the same time.  CNN has been breathlessly reporting this "incident" and saying the names are being withheld until next of kin can be notified.  Every family with someone deployed in that region has been afraid of the doorbell for the last 3 days.  The Mom is 35; One kid is 14; the others are 11 and 7.  Her husband; their Dad; died from a mistaken bombing run by a Turkish bomber that was trying to hit a nearby Kurdish position but they missed.  You're standing at the front door when a wife with 3 kids;  that just lost their world; opens the door.  What do you tell her?   Why did their world just crumble?  Why will these kids grow up without a father?   What do you tell her?  What do you tell these kids?     What do you say Fifty?  Answer my 3 questions above.    

 

 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

As I said on the thread in the other forum, this is like some kind of master class in foreign policy ineptitude. The Kurds have fought side by side with our troops against ISIS (they also helped us during both invasions of Iraq vs Saddam Hussein) and even if they had some personal motives (who the hell was claiming their help was some form of altruism?), they were our allies nonetheless. And then Trump goes off script to pull our troops out and allow Turkey to begin attacking the Kurds in Syria. 

It’s indefensible. And it shows the dangers of voting for people because they are good businessmen. That’s all fine and good if you’re humble enough to accept advice and counsel from people who understand the history, nuances and pitfalls of foreign policy as well as your military leaders who talk to those with boots in the dirt. But when you make snap decisions, think you’re smarter than everyone else no matter the subject, and you’re too stubborn to admit when you’re wrong, you do dumb s*** like this. 

Every president has to make tough decisions where there are no good answers and no matter what you do you’re going to piss someone off. This isn’t one of those situations. This is an unforced error committed by a rank amateur who is completely out of his depth. It’s the own goal of all own goals. It’s bouncing off a would be tackler, spinning and sprinting to the end zone, only to realize you scored a safety for the other team because you ran the wrong direction. 

And then this numbskull defends it all by saying the Kurds “didn’t help us in WWII?”  Our troops are stunned and ashamed.  No person or group in any of the world’s numerous dangerous hotspots will or should trust us for the foreseeable future because of this colossal idiot that makes snap decisions without consulting anyone.

What a total clusterf***.  

[aubiefifty 16,739]

1 hour ago, japantiger said:

"no one wants to see more American kids dying" - but that is precisely what would happen.  

"I do believe there was a better way to handle the situation" - what would you have done?  Allying with the Soviets saved American lives...that doesn't mean we are beholding to them forever in every situation.  This is foreign policy; not middle school.   As GW said (paraphrased); "...Nations act in their interests; we'd better be prepared to act in ours".

"if we keep leaving our allies twisting in the wind after we are done with them pretty soon our allies are going to start acting like trump and telling us to go screw ourselves and to fight our own damn wars." - see previous response directly above.  And, maybe they should...actually, not maybe...every time someone wants us to fight somewhere where we have no business sending young Americans; maybe our "allies" should say no.  Do you think they should have done into Iraq with us?  Do you think we would have been better off if 60 nations had said no; not worth it...not our fight?  Then; maybe, just maybe; we'd be a hell of a lot more sober about picking fights.  I find this whole thing funny.  Suddenly, every liberal in the world is a war monger wanting to send young Americans off to die for  what?  The Kurds are our "besties" ?  What ongoing interests do we have with the Kurds?  What ongoing interests do we have with the Turks?  Hint, I can think of  maybe 1 with the Kurds and about 50 with the Turks.  

" edit here. did we not basically give the turks permission to go in? and if we did not would they have done so honest question since i might be confused on this issue." - what difference does it make?    This has been building for nearly 5 years.  The deal with the PKK set this showdown up in 2014.   Do we get sucked in or do we "let the kids work it out".   Oh, getting sucked in means Americans will die.  Picture this: You get out of a car in front of a small home near Fort Hood...or Ft Lewis Washington....or Ft Bragg...or Fort Rucker...You walk up to the house and ring the doorbell.  Ten more of these conversations are happening across the country at the same time.  CNN has been breathlessly reporting this "incident" and saying the names are being withheld until next of kin can be notified.  Every family with someone deployed in that region has been afraid of the doorbell for the last 3 days.  The Mom is 35; One kid is 14; the others are 11 and 7.  Her husband; their Dad; died from a mistaken bombing run by a Turkish bomber that was trying to hit a nearby Kurdish position but they missed.  You're standing at the front door when a wife with 3 kids;  that just lost their world; opens the door.  What do you tell her?   Why did their world just crumble?  Why will these kids grow up without a father?   What do you tell her?  What do you tell these kids?     What do you say Fifty?  Answer my 3 questions above.    

 

 

from what i have heard on the tele is trump did not consult his  generals before this decision was made. basically everyone was were caught off guard. i do not claim to have all the answers but my point is they should have let the kurds know what was going to happen with enough time to adjust by preparing a different strategy or even pulling out. and besides i heart trump say something along he would not allow the kurds to be wiped out or whatever. my point is kurd with their actions have saved untold american lives and then we basically say screw you. this could have been handled better.i think trump did this to slow down and distract from the impecahing thing we got going on.

[japantiger 4,051]

6 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

from what i have heard on the tele is trump did not consult his  generals before this decision was made. basically everyone was were caught off guard. i do not claim to have all the answers but my point is they should have let the kurds know what was going to happen with enough time to adjust by preparing a different strategy or even pulling out. and besides i heart trump say something along he would not allow the kurds to be wiped out or whatever. my point is kurd with their actions have saved untold american lives and then we basically say screw you. this could have been handled better.i think trump did this to slow down and distract from the impecahing thing we got going on.

Nice job dodging a substantive conversation.  You don't like it because Orange Man Bad.  He's the Commander in Chief.  The buck stops with him.  He ran to get us out of endless wars and meaningless death.  The Generals aren't going to do that; they are in the War business.  This is how "civilian" authority is supposed to work.    Colin Powell is out there criticizing this move; the man who stood up in front of the UN and told the world a lie about why we should go into Iraq.  You'd think someone as allegedly as smart as him would have better judgement now...this should tell you all you need to know...they are like a kid with a hammer...the world is a nail.  They have the ordinance; the world is a target.  The Generals are only ever surprised when the civilian authority exerts it's authority.

[aubiefifty 16,739]

6 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Nice job dodging a substantive conversation.  You don't like it because Orange Man Bad.  He's the Commander in Chief.  The buck stops with him.  He ran to get us out of endless wars and meaningless death.  The Generals aren't going to do that; they are in the War business.  This is how "civilian" authority is supposed to work.    Colin Powell is out there criticizing this move; the man who stood up in front of the UN and told the world a lie about why we should go into Iraq.  You'd think someone as allegedly as smart as him would have better judgement now...this should tell you all you need to know...they are like a kid with a hammer...the world is a nail.  They have the ordinance; the world is a target.  The Generals are only ever surprised when the civilian authority exerts it's authority.

just curious............did you get upset when obama basically screwed the kurds as well even though he let them know what was coming? you keep trying to act like i want to see american kids die. that is pretty low even for you.

[japantiger 4,051]

33 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

just curious............did you get upset when obama basically screwed the kurds as well even though he let them know what was coming? you keep trying to act like i want to see american kids die. that is pretty low even for you.

I will engage in a meaningful discussion when you support your position for sending young Americans to die in Northern Syria now.  Either support what you are proposing with a rational/goal/timeline and a cost (American deaths) you think we should be willing to pay; or concede the discussion.  Quit avoiding facing the tough question that we should expect our President and Legislators to ask and answer before they get us into any more meaningless wars.  If you want do it; then this is just another "Orange Man Bad" screed.  Every liberal nutcase is calling for War with Turkey right now...it is truly bizarro world.

[homersapien 11,357]

53 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Nice job dodging a substantive conversation.  You don't like it because Orange Man Bad.  He's the Commander in Chief.  The buck stops with him.  He ran to get us out of endless wars and meaningless death.  The Generals aren't going to do that; they are in the War business.  This is how "civilian" authority is supposed to work.    Colin Powell is out there criticizing this move; the man who stood up in front of the UN and told the world a lie about why we should go into Iraq.  You'd think someone as allegedly as smart as him would have better judgement now...this should tell you all you need to know...they are like a kid with a hammer...the world is a nail.  They have the ordinance; the world is a target.  The Generals are only ever surprised when the civilian authority exerts it's authority.

Sounds like what Obama did in Iraq.  How did that work out?

These sort of actions need to be deliberated thoroughly with input from various experts from the military and state department, not to mention consultation with the ally in question.

None of that happened.

Trump doesn't deliberate on anything.  He doesn't have to.

He's a "stable genius".

 

[japantiger 4,051]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Sounds like what Obama did in Iraq.  How did that work out?

These sort of actions need to be deliberated thoroughly with input from various experts from the military and state department, not to mention consultation with the ally in question.

None of that happened.

Trump doesn't deliberate on anything.  He doesn't have to.

He's a "stable genius".

 

Was Obama faced with pitting a Nato ally against a transactional partner?  No...nothing about these situations are analogous.  You guys are the worst at understanding what a real analogy is.  Try again.  

[japantiger 4,051]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

As I said on the thread in the other forum, this is like some kind of master class in foreign policy ineptitude. The Kurds have fought side by side with our troops against ISIS (they also helped us during both invasions of Iraq vs Saddam Hussein) and even if they had some personal motives (who the hell was claiming their help was some form of altruism?), they were our allies nonetheless. And then Trump goes off script to pull our troops out and allow Turkey to begin attacking the Kurds in Syria. 

It’s indefensible. And it shows the dangers of voting for people because they are good businessmen. That’s all fine and good if you’re humble enough to accept advice and counsel from people who understand the history, nuances and pitfalls of foreign policy as well as your military leaders who talk to those with boots in the dirt. But when you make snap decisions, think you’re smarter than everyone else no matter the subject, and you’re too stubborn to admit when you’re wrong, you do dumb s*** like this. 

Every president has to make tough decisions where there are no good answers and no matter what you do you’re going to piss someone off. This isn’t one of those situations. This is an unforced error committed by a rank amateur who is completely out of his depth. It’s the own goal of all own goals. It’s bouncing off a would be tackler, spinning and sprinting to the end zone, only to realize you scored a safety for the other team because you ran the wrong direction. 

And then this numbskull defends it all by saying the Kurds “didn’t help us in WWII?”  Our troops are stunned and ashamed.  No person or group in any of the world’s numerous dangerous hotspots will or should trust us for the foreseeable future because of this colossal idiot that makes snap decisions without consulting anyone.

What a total clusterf***.  

Very emotional.  Perhaps this discussion is making you overwrought.  Scotch works for me.  I see you answered none of the 3 questions I posed.  You're not serious.  Another Orange Man Bad screed.  Trump is an absolute genius.  He now has every leftists clamoring for war with a NATO ally.  

[TitanTiger 20,472]

38 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Very emotional.  Perhaps this discussion is making you overwrought.  Scotch works for me.  I see you answered none of the 3 questions I posed.  You're not serious.  Another Orange Man Bad screed.  Trump is an absolute genius.  He now has every leftists clamoring for war with a NATO ally.  

Yeah.  He surprises his foreign policy experts and the Pentagon, but good ol' JT on the AUF forums has questions.  And you wonder why you're not allowed in the serious forum.

Post less.

[homersapien 11,357]

41 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Was Obama faced with pitting a Nato ally against a transactional partner?  No...nothing about these situations are analogous.  You guys are the worst at understanding what a real analogy is.  Try again.  

Wrong.

Obama prematurely withdrew forces from Iraq which had unintended consequences leading to more conflict and bloodshed instead of less.  The same is liable to happen here.

That's the parallel. 

Turkey being a NATO ally (as if Trump gives a s*** about that ) is certainly a complicating aspect of the situation, especially considering other recent policy conflicts we have with them, but it has nothing to do with my analogy. 

It's a red herring. 

[japantiger 4,051]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Yeah.  He surprises his foreign policy experts and the Pentagon, but good ol' JT on the AUF forums has questions.  And you wonder why you're not allowed in the serious forum.

Post less.

You have a real problem with free speech, don't you.  What, Daddy not listen to you when you were a kid?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

3 minutes ago, japantiger said:

You have a real problem with free speech, don't you.  What, Daddy not listen to you when you were a kid?

If you can point me to where I petitioned Congress to prevent you from making a fool of yourself, I'll concede the point.  All that's happened here is that you've been relegated to the kids' table where the conversation will be more often in line with your maturity level.

[japantiger 4,051]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Wrong.

Obama prematurely withdrew forces from Iraq which had unintended consequences leading to more conflict and bloodshed instead of less.  The same is liable to happen here.

That's the parallel. 

Turkey being a NATO ally (as if Trump gives a s*** about that ) is certainly a complicating aspect of the situation, especially considering other recent policy conflicts we have with them, but it has nothing to do with my analogy. 

It's a red herring. 

Let me make this easier for you.  

• Turkey is a NATO ally...The Kurds are not
• We have extensive security and economic ties to Turkey and Iraq ... We have none with the Kurds
• Iraq is an actual sovereign nation ... the 20 miles of Northern Syria are not
• Should Iraq fall; it would destabilize the middle east, further Iranian interests and undermine our other allies in the region ... if the Turks kick the Kurds out of those 20 miles of Northern Syria; it will be a return to past status quo
• We had over 50,000 US troops in Iraq ... we had 50 in the disputed zone in Norther Syria

So yeah; other than nothing substantive in common; these situations are just alike.  As I said; you guys constantly misread analogies.  The military teaches a course on this topic.  I suggest you try to read up on how to evaluate situations so you don't make blunders using bad analogies.  

 

[japantiger 4,051]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

If you can point me to where I petitioned Congress to prevent you from making a fool of yourself, I'll concede the point.  All that's happened here is that you've been relegated to the kids' table where the conversation will be more often in line with your maturity level.

Wow, you are such a big important man.  You must have been dynamite in middle school debate team.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

2 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Wow, you are such a big important man.  You must have been dynamite in middle school debate team.

[japantiger 4,051]

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Oh, so you didn't make the middle school team, huh.  Tough break.  You should probably be over that by now.

[TitanTiger 20,472]