Trump’s proud of his rationalization for abandoning the Kurds

[DKW 86 7,419]

7 hours ago, AUDub said:

They are. An arms embargo and other sanctions from the EU might be coming down the pike soon. 

But not a one of them can hold them in check like we can. Besides us, Turkey has the largest military in NATO, and not a one of them can project force like the United States. 

AAANNNDDD...this is one of the very few things with which I totally agree with Trump. We cannot be the World's Policeman. It is WWWAAAYYY past time for Europe to stand up and act like this stuff counts, like they actually give a damn. For decades NATO members did not do nor pay their part. They were very happy for us to bear almost ALL the burden. Well F them. If Europe wants to be involved in the cure then let them build up forces capable of being in the discussion. Otherwise they need to STFU. 

The very idea that "An arms embargo and other sanctions from the EU MIGHT BE COMING DOWN THE PIKE SOON" actually means that they are in reality not concerned at all. My God, can you not hear yourself and ALL the wishy-washiness in that statement? MIGHT BE? SOON? It is not like this all came up overnight. If Europe wants to be in the discussion, then Europe needs to get their crap together and get in the discussion, spill their blood, spend their money, get in the mess, not just sit back and let American Blood and American Money be spent and then Arm-Chair Quarterback everything. 

Look, I totally support NATO when all are engaged. But no adult in the room over 25 thinks that Europe has been engaged in NATO in reality since the early 80s. NATO has become the US and a bunch psuedo-power-posers using the French Model. Except for Britain, they pretty much half-assed all their support and did nothing but complain whenever we did anything. Part of the US just going off on its own was watching NATO take years to some to a decision on anything. In a hot-live-fire arena, sitting on your rear-end means your people are just going to get killed. If the rest of NATO was so delusional that they dont already have this stuff together, then screw them. 

***Footnote: On the tactical side of things: MIGHT BE and SOON. If you know anything about Hitler and his thinking and learn FROM history then you know that MIGHT BE and SOON is exactly WHY Hitler went ahead with 3/4s of his military actions. He would have a country attacked and defeated while the LONs and/or the rest of that Nations Allies were holding meetings, hand-holding, circle-jerking. While they were off doing the MIGHT BE and SOON, Hitler was taking land and nations and conquering Europe. Seems the new leaders of Europe have forgotten their history. 

[homersapien 11,362]

On 10/10/2019 at 3:45 PM, japantiger said:

"Mrs Jones, your son died so I didn't look like a *****" ... yeah, that'll make her proud.  Grow up.  

"Grow up"?  That's rich. 

As a marine, you of all people should understand that we have a volunteer military and that military service often comes with personal risk.  Hopefully, that risk is associated with a cause that furthers American overall interests and security, which is why it's called military "service".

Here we had a situation in which the U.S. military had a very light footprint - air support and a few hundred special forces who were training the Kurds to do most of the killing and dying.  Trump has now taken a admittedly difficult and complicated situation in Syria and made it much worse.

It will force the Kurds to appeal to Assad for protection - a Russian ally - greatly increasing the Russian influence in the area.  (Putin has to be ecstatic about the Trump administration.)   This will also provides conditions to help Iran to move in and threatened Israel.  And most notably, it will resurrect Isis (who have not yet been defeated).

And all that is to say nothing about the inevitable humanitarian crisis that will result.

Our military stationed in Syria were performing a valuable, relatively low risk service and they were proud in doing so. (Just ask them about what they think about abandoning the Kurds.)

 

Once again, Trump chooses the stupidest path

.......But unfortunately — as events in northern Syria are now proving — “stupid s---” is Trump’s specialty.

The Turkish invasion of an area controlled by Kurdish forces who were once allies of the United States has demonstrated what can happen when America’s final decision-maker is someone so weak, ignorant and impulsive. It all started with a phone call between President Trump and a foreign leader, which apparently is how many of our most urgent crises now begin.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan told Trump he was ready to launch the incursion Turkey had long wanted to eliminate the Kurdish forces it views as terrorists, and Trump said he’d stand aside, withdrawing the small number of U.S. forces directly in Turkey’s path. Trump’s decision to give Erdogan the green light to invade completely blindsided not just our Kurdish allies but also pretty much everyone in his own government, from the Pentagon to the State Department to Capitol Hill.

Then Trump decided to remove all American forces from the area, and began vacillating back and forth between making bizarre criticisms of the Kurds to justify his decision (“They didn’t help us in the Second World War. They didn’t help us in Normandy”) and threatening to destroy the Turkish economy to punish Erdogan for the invasion that Trump allowed him to undertake.

Reporting from The Post and other news outlets paints a picture of chaos inside the administration, with Trump being criticized vociferously even by Republican supporters and the government scrambling to deal with unfolding events on the ground. Although Trump was apparently “heartened” by the support he has gotten from Fox hosts Tucker Carlson and Lou Dobbs.

If you want to get a sense of the coherence of Trump’s thinking on this subject, see if you can unpack this tweet he sent Sunday:

.....The Kurds and Turkey have been fighting for many years. Turkey considers the PKK the worst terrorists of all. Others may want to come in and fight for one side or the other. Let them! We are monitoring the situation closely. Endless Wars!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 13, 2019

It’s all a mess and I don’t really understand what’s happening, Trump seems to say, but what’s important is that it isn’t my fault.

So let’s take stock:

• The Kurds, our former ally, now feel betrayed as they are overrun by the Turkish military with potentially catastrophic humanitarian consequences.
• The idea that the United States will honor its commitments and defend its allies is now a cruel joke. “They trusted us and we broke that trust,” one Army officer who has worked with the Kurds told the New York Times. “It’s a stain on the American conscience.”
• The Kurds have now sought help from the government of Bashar al-Assad, slaughterer of hundreds of thousands, ally of Russia and enemy of the United States.
• Thousands of Islamic State prisoners held by the Kurds could now escape, raising the threat of a resurgence of the terrorist group.

Anyone familiar with this situation understands that it has always been complex, with very little in the way of paths to happy outcomes. The United States has been caught between Turkey, a NATO ally, and the Kurds, whom we have worked with and supported. But our presence there was helping to prevent a conflagration. Anyone could have told Trump — and indeed, it appears that everyone around him was telling him — that a quick withdrawal would make things much worse, both in the immediate term for the Kurds and in the long term for U.S. foreign policy.

The long term, however, is not something Trump appears capable of considering, except in his desire to avoid “Endless Wars!”

You can agree with Trump on the essential point of not starting conflicts like the Iraq War but still realize that given the depth of American involvement in the Middle East and the complexities on the ground, there are smart ways and stupid ways to extricate ourselves, if that’s what we choose to do. As usual, Trump has chosen the stupidest way.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/14/once-again-trump-chooses-stupidest-path/

 

[homersapien 11,362]

On 10/10/2019 at 7:18 PM, japantiger said:

 These all get down to "we should risk American lives because of peer pressure"...that's it.  If the Brits, Italians, or EU don't like it; tell them to deploy to the region.  They have a military...the issue is in their back yard; not ours.   I should care about one alleged "anonymous"  sourced "Special Forces" soldier thinks?  Really... we didn't go to war with Russia when Patton, the theater Commander wanted to do it...but I should do it based on an anonymously sourced Green Beret soldier....we all know that is probably just a lie anyway.  Who said it...give me the name..the main reason I think that source is bull**** is the statement "the Kurds are as close to Western thinking in the middle east as anyone".  The Kurds are largely Suni Muslim followed by Shia....after that, it is the Yazidi's  (who believe they are lead by the Peacock Angel who is re-incarted on earth every few years) and finally Zoroastrianism.  So yeah; they might as well be New Yorkers.  Reporters are just making s*** up like they do on everything else.     

 

You are an ignorant fool. Of course the quote from the special forces soldier was anonymous.  They don't identify themselves for obvious reasons, including the safety of their families.

Second, - and just as one example - The Kurds are second only to Israel in how they respect and treat women. 

And assuming you adhere to a Christian heritage, I'd go a little more lightly when ridiculing the beliefs of other religions.  While the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims, several religions are practiced in Kurdistan, including Christianity which is possible because they are tolerant.

Finally,  "In the 21st century, Kurdish polities began adopting secularism as a political principle in the Middle East. This is not least due to the Kurdistan Communities Union movement and their radically secular Rojava model project in the Democratic Federation of Northern Syria^[12][13][14]. Kurdistan has been referred to as "the last safe haven for secularism" in a region rife with religious extremism. In 2012, the semi-autonomous Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraq (KRG) declared that public schools were to be religiously neutral and that all major religions of the world are taught on an equal basis. As of 2012, KRG and Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan), are the only administrations in the entire region that do not openly endorse a single religion in public schools."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kurdistan

 

These are the people who you would abandon to be slaughtered by Turkey and their Arab militia allies. A loyal U.S. ally who did the bulk of the fighting and bleeding in fighting Isis in Syria. 

And you just can't accept why one of our special forces is ashamed.

"Semper fi" my ass.