Disclosures suggest Trump’s White House politicized pretty much everything — and there are lots of witnesses

[homersapien 11,366]

There's little wonder about why Trump is trying to stonewall witness depositions - there is plenty for him to hide.

 

This is what happens when you have a president who doesn't know the difference between what is ethical and what is corrupt. Trump spent the first year or so of his administration weeding out those who did understand the difference and replacing them with people more like himself - a sure recipe for eventual self-destruction.

 

 

Aaron Blake 

Oct. 11, 2019 at 10:04 a.m. EDT

The White House served notice this week that it would not cooperate with House Democrats’ impeachment inquiry in any way. And we’re starting to learn perhaps why.

Disclosures on Thursday suggest a White House that took very little care to separate official business from political and personal advantage and often circumvented established channels to benefit President Trump.

This isn’t exactly a revelation, but the speed of the new disclosures and the brazenness of the actions suggest there are plenty of people who bore witness to this and who could speak to it, if willing and/or allowed.

First, there was the news that political appointees overrode the career officials in the White House budget office to put a freeze on military aid to Ukraine. The career officials were reportedly concerned, and the political appointees didn’t provide a reason for the hold, which evidence suggests might have been withheld for political leverage on Ukraine to pursue Trump’s favored investigations.

Second, the House is set to depose former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch behind closed doors Friday, and reports indicate she will say she was removed by Trump after insisting that Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, relay his requests for investigations through official channels.

Former White House official Fiona Hill will also reportedly testify to similar effect. NBC News’s Josh Lederman reported that next week Hill will say that Giuliani and European Union Ambassador Gordon Sondland, a former Trump donor, conducted a shadow foreign policy in Ukraine that circumvented the White House’s National Security Council.

And third — and perhaps most remarkable — there is the matter of Trump’s request of then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson. The Washington Post reported Thursday that Trump asked Tillerson to work with Giuliani to help end the U.S. prosecution of a Turkish Iranian gold trader whom Giuliani had been representing.

It appears Trump was trying to meddle in a U.S. judicial proceeding to help his personal lawyer’s client and secure a deal with Turkey — in a kind of inverse of the Ukraine situation.

Here’s more from Josh Dawsey, Carol D. Leonnig and Matt Zapotosky, who built on the original scoop from Bloomberg News:

Trump urged Tillerson in an Oval Office meeting to try to craft a diplomatic “deal” to stop the U.S. case against Reza Zarrab on corruption charges in exchange for concessions from Turkey. The request shocked the then-secretary of state, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations involving the president.

 

At the time, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was personally lobbying Trump to get the charges dropped.

 

Trump, in turn, repeatedly raised the topic with Tillerson — including directly in the Oval Office meeting, according to people with knowledge of the episode.

The president was joined in the Oval Office by two of Zarrab’s attorneys, Giuliani and Michael Mukasey, a former attorney general under President George W. Bush who proposed swapping the trader for an American pastor in Turkish custody, according to two people familiar with the meeting.

 

“The president says, ‘Guys, give Rex your pitch,’ ” according to one of the people.

Tillerson was so unsettled by the extraordinary request to intervene in an ongoing criminal investigation that he complained to then-Chief of Staff John F. Kelly that he believed it was inappropriate, according to a former administration official. Kelly told him to disregard it, the official said.

The idea that Trump lets his personal and political business seep into official policymaking and meddles in law enforcement’s business isn’t exactly news. His request that Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky pursue two investigations that are clearly aimed at political gain for Trump is merely the latest high-profile example. This is also a guy who repeatedly decried his first attorney general for not being more loyal, not protecting him and for not pursuing his preferred investigations — and also requested loyalty from then-FBI Director James B. Comey, who said Trump hinted at Comey taking it easy on Michael Flynn.

But there seems to be a quickly gathering critical mass here, and there figure to be many people who saw or heard about things being handled in a suspicious manner. The growing leaks about these things — including another Post report Thursday that at least four national security officials raised concerns about the Ukraine situation before and immediately after Trump’s July 25 phone call with Zelensky — indicate there’s plenty to be uncovered.

The Kurt Volker situation and the text messages he shared show how officials can get wrapped up in these politicized and problematic matters and arguably participate in them, even if not proactively. Volker, former U.S. envoy to Ukraine, seemed to want to get out in front of that story, resigning and quickly disclosing what he knew to House Democrats. Hill may be doing something similar.

And many others could perhaps shed plenty of light on these matters if they ever speak with House investigators.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/11/series-disclosures-suggests-trumps-white-house-politicized-pretty-much-everything-there-are-lots-witnesses/

[jj3jordan 2,051]

Kettle meet pot.

[homersapien 11,366]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Kettle meet pot.

 Point?

 

 

[jj3jordan 2,051]

21 hours ago, homersapien said:

 Point?

 

 

Uh...Democrats politicize everything. Funny you accusing Trump of same...like it's bad or something.  Kinda surprised, thought you would be able to understand.  My mistake. 

[SaltyTiger 7,790]

On 10/11/2019 at 2:36 PM, homersapien said:

to Ukraine.

 

[homersapien 11,366]

On 10/12/2019 at 11:13 PM, jj3jordan said:

Uh...Democrats politicize everything. Funny you accusing Trump of same...like it's bad or something.  Kinda surprised, thought you would be able to understand.  My mistake. 

If you want to make such generalized comparisons you need to come up with specific examples that are equivalent to the examples in the OP.

Simply saying Democrats do the same is very weak. 

[jj3jordan 2,051]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

If you want to make such generalized comparisons you need to come up with specific examples that are equivalent to the examples in the OP.

Simply saying Democrats do the same is very weak. 

Simply not knowing democrats politicize everything is blind ignorance.

[TexasTiger 12,831]

35 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Simply not knowing democrats politicize everything is blind ignorance.

This is not the smack forum.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

10 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

This is not the smack forum.

Sorry. If someone hasn't the brain cells to remember/acknowledge democrat politicizing of shootings, hurricanes (even small cat I storms), funerals, and wildfires caused by Cal power and light, then that someone should not participate in a discussion on this revered forum.

[TexasTiger 12,831]

18 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Sorry. If someone hasn't the brain cells to remember/acknowledge democrat politicizing of shootings, hurricanes (even small cat I storms), funerals, and wildfires caused by Cal power and light, then that someone should not participate in a discussion on this revered forum.

You demonstrate that deficiency daily so perhaps you should follow your own advice.

[homersapien 11,366]

On 10/15/2019 at 9:58 AM, jj3jordan said:

Sorry. If someone hasn't the brain cells to remember/acknowledge democrat politicizing of shootings, hurricanes (even small cat I storms), funerals, and wildfires caused by Cal power and light, then that someone should not participate in a discussion on this revered forum.

I think you are confused. 

There is a difference between the natural political reactions from a major event or disaster, for example, asking what may have caused it and/or how it might be prevented in the future by a change in public policy, and a POTUS   "....who takes very little care to separate official business from political and personal advantage and often circumvented established channels to benefit himself."

(Or for a more specific example, a POTUS who allows  "political appointees (to) overide the career officials in the White House budget office to put a freeze on military aid to Ukraine. The career officials were reportedly concerned, and the political appointees didn’t provide a reason for the hold, which evidence suggests might have been withheld for political leverage on Ukraine to pursue Trump’s favored investigations.)

The former is simply a reflection of human nature (exhibited by all humans regardless of political leanings).  The latter represents a corrupt approach to the governance process.

 

 

[jj3jordan 2,051]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

I think you are confused. 

There is a difference between the natural political reactions from a major event or disaster, for example, asking what may have caused it and/or how it might be prevented in the future by a change in public policy and a POTUS   "....who takes very little care to separate official business from political and personal advantage and often circumvented established channels to benefit himself."

(Or for a more specific example, a POTUS who allows  "political appointees (to) overide the career officials in the White House budget office to put a freeze on military aid to Ukraine. The career officials were reportedly concerned, and the political appointees didn’t provide a reason for the hold, which evidence suggests might have been withheld for political leverage on Ukraine to pursue Trump’s favored investigations.)

The former is simply a reflection of human nature (exhibited by all humans regardless of political leanings).  The latter represents a corrupt approach to the governance process.

 

 

Got it. Democrats don't politicize things, they have natural reactions that come with a solution that usually takes freedoms away from morons (republicans/conservative).  If you think I would support a "career official" over a political appointee (like cabinet members maybe?) without more details you will be disappointed. Regardless of what you believe, money comes with conditions, although complying with a treaty to investigate corruption is not one of them.

Homer, I understand you are disappointed in Biden and his son's antics and are probably very upset that it got reported for us to see. I'm surprised and disappointed also that a sitting VP would do what he bragged about doing. It's okay. We will survive that incident but sadly for you I don't think Biden will be successful this time either.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

7 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

You demonstrate that deficiency daily so perhaps you should follow your own advice.

Good zinger TT.  I'll take that as an acknowledgement that democrats do politicize shootings, hurricanes, funerals, and wildfires.

[TexasTiger 12,831]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

Good zinger TT.  I'll take that as an acknowledgement that democrats do politicize shootings, hurricanes, funerals, and wildfires.

Is the opposite ignoring any governmental responsibility in how we address them? Because that’s the Republican approach you embrace.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Is the opposite ignoring any governmental responsibility in how we address them? Because that’s the Republican approach you embrace.

No. Doubtful we can do anything about hurricanes, funerals, or fires. Shootings are terrible crimes that in some cases can be prevented. Taking away law abiding citizens guns will not ever accomplish that. We already have background checks which are fine, I'm all for them.  I wasn't against the bump stock ban either. I didn't see how you responded to Trump implementing gun control items but I hope you were pleased.  Outlawing magazines and redefining assault weapons is useless in my mind. When you start to significantly decrease gun ownership like Chicago, you get more crime not less.

[TexasTiger 12,831]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

No. Doubtful we can do anything about hurricanes, funerals, or fires. Shootings are terrible crimes that in some cases can be prevented. Taking away law abiding citizens guns will not ever accomplish that. We already have background checks which are fine, I'm all for them.  I wasn't against the bump stock ban either. I didn't see how you responded to Trump implementing gun control items but I hope you were pleased.  Outlawing magazines and redefining assault weapons is useless in my mind. When you start to significantly decrease gun ownership like Chicago, you get more crime not less.

We can respond better to hurricanes, we can prevent (delay) some funerals, we can prevent Some fires and respond better to others.

[TexasTiger 12,831]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

We can respond better to hurricanes, we can prevent (delay) some funerals, we can prevent Some fires and respond better to others.

@jluvah thinks we are incapable of all these things. No faith in America. Sad!

[homersapien 11,366]

18 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Got it. Democrats don't politicize things, they have natural reactions that come with a solution that usually takes freedoms away from morons (republicans/conservative).  If you think I would support a "career official" over a political appointee (like cabinet members maybe?) without more details you will be disappointed. Regardless of what you believe, money comes with conditions, although complying with a treaty to investigate corruption is not one of them.

Homer, I understand you are disappointed in Biden and his son's antics and are probably very upset that it got reported for us to see. I'm surprised and disappointed also that a sitting VP would do what he bragged about doing. It's okay. We will survive that incident but sadly for you I don't think Biden will be successful this time either.

1) What exactly got reported for us to see?  That Hunter Biden took advantage of his position as "son of Biden" to get a job?  That's not exactly rare nor does it say anything about the Democratic Party in particular.

2) What exactly did Biden do, other than to promote official U.S. policy? (You really shouldn't keep promoting the lie that Trump is pushing. It make you look naive and gullible.) Let's at least try to keep to the facts.

Trump politicizes and/or corrupts everything he touches for personal gain. That's exactly how he got himself into this mess - he replaced his chief of staff and his cabinet with sychophants who wouldn't tell him he cannot do something.

This was inevitable.

[homersapien 11,366]

18 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Good zinger TT.  I'll take that as an acknowledgement that democrats do politicize shootings, hurricanes, funerals, and wildfires.

Pointing out mismanagement or the potential causes of a disaster is a legitimate function for our political representatives.

Furthermore, investigating the use of taxpayer money to extort a foreign company to provide personal dirt on your political opponent - at the expense of American security - is not "politicizing".

If anything, it's duty.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

Pointing out mismanagement or the potential causes of a disaster is a legitimate function for our political representatives.

Furthermore, investigating the use of taxpayer money to extort a foreign company to provide personal dirt on your political opponent - at the expense of American security - is not "politicizing".

If anything, it's duty.

You think "mismanagement" caused a hurricane?  It definitely contributes to fire damage by environmental wackos preventing homeowners from forest management. Adds fuel to the fire, but doesn't cause it. You must be conceding politicization of funerals since you didn't mention it.  Trump didn't ask for personal dirt, and didn't extort. Biden however did exactly that.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

1) What exactly got reported for us to see?  That Hunter Biden took advantage of his position as "son of Biden" to get a job?  That's not exactly rare nor does it say anything about the Democratic Party in particular.

2) What exactly did Biden do, other than to promote official U.S. policy? (You really shouldn't keep promoting the lie that Trump is pushing. It make you look naive and gullible.) Let's at least try to keep to the facts.

Trump politicizes and/or corrupts everything he touches for personal gain. That's exactly how he got himself into this mess - he replaced his chief of staff and his cabinet with sychophants who wouldn't tell him he cannot do something.

This was inevitable.

Maybe you didn't hear. Hunter was paid $50K/mo to sit on a board at Burisma despite having no knowledge or experience in the entry business or the host country. The only believable explanation for this job was that hid dad was VP and could affect policy in that position. Ukraine investigated Burisma for corruption and in doing so was putting Hunter at risk to either be discovered or get fragged. Joe threatened to withhold $1B if the prosecutor was not fired before Joe left the country in 6 hours. Joe even told them to call Barack if they didn't believe him. The prosecutor was fired.  Not sure what part of that was US policy but I saw the videotape of Biden bragging about it so its not a lie Trump is pushing. It is a truth you are denying.

This should not seem okay to you, no matter your political persuasion.  I'm assuming you would be fine with Trumps mentioning the Biden issue with Ukraines president if Biden were not a current candidate since that would remove you primary reason for accusing Trump of wrongdoing.

You do realize that most presidents do appoint people who think like them and for the most part will tell them yes. 

[tomcat 569]

On 10/15/2019 at 4:46 PM, jj3jordan said:

Got it. Democrats don't politicize things, they have natural reactions that come with a solution that usually takes freedoms away from morons (republicans/conservative).  If you think I would support a "career official" over a political appointee (like cabinet members maybe?) without more details you will be disappointed. Regardless of what you believe, money comes with conditions, although complying with a treaty to investigate corruption is not one of them.

Homer, I understand you are disappointed in Biden and his son's antics and are probably very upset that it got reported for us to see. I'm surprised and disappointed also that a sitting VP would do what he bragged about doing. It's okay. We will survive that incident but sadly for you I don't think Biden will be successful this time either.

jj.... first let me thank you for your dedication and commitment to military service. The Warthog is one of my favorite airplanes. This airplane, and those who fly it, have saved the lives of countless ground troops. The fact that the DoD and Air Force continue efforts to retire (kill) the A10 and divert those funds to the F35 is a sad and accurate commentary of the influence of the military/industrial complex. 
 

It seems to me that both parties politicize everything. Any scab is scratched by the opposing party to the nth degree. IMHO opinion, the Biden deal is a snoozer. Worst case: ol Joe used his position to get Hunter a job. Worst case. Many parents do that. The reality is probably dialed down from that.......unless you want to politicize it😉 BTW...the trump administration seems to have captured the essence of nepotism.

So despite the bickering, what is in the country’s best interest? Trump is obviously not transparent. Refusing subpoenas...ordering people to not testify....all smacks of coverup. How can that be good?

[TexasTiger 12,831]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

You think "mismanagement" caused a hurricane?  It definitely contributes to fire damage by environmental wackos preventing homeowners from forest management. Adds fuel to the fire, but doesn't cause it. You must be conceding politicization of funerals since you didn't mention it.  Trump didn't ask for personal dirt, and didn't extort. Biden however did exactly that.

Try to keep up.

[homersapien 11,366]

On 10/16/2019 at 5:23 PM, jj3jordan said:

You think "mismanagement" caused a hurricane?  It definitely contributes to fire damage by environmental wackos preventing homeowners from forest management. Adds fuel to the fire, but doesn't cause it. You must be conceding politicization of funerals since you didn't mention it.  Trump didn't ask for personal dirt, and didn't extort. Biden however did exactly that.

That is a really stupid thing to infer from what I said.  Pathetic   

 

[homersapien 11,366]

17 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Maybe you didn't hear. Hunter was paid $50K/mo to sit on a board at Burisma despite having no knowledge or experience in the entry business or the host country.  Unwise on his part, but not illegal.  Capitalizing on your name happens all the time in our culture, by all political sides.

 

The only believable explanation for this job was that hid dad was VP and could affect policy in that position. No, it's more believable that Biden was simply taking easy money and Burisma liked the prestige of having him on the board.  If you are going to make charges about affecting "policy" you need to be specific.  

 

Ukraine investigated Burisma for corruption and in doing so was putting Hunter at risk to either be discovered or get fragged. False.  Hunter was not at risk and Ukraine had stopped the Burisma investigation:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/23/20879611/joe-biden-hunter-biden-ukraine-corruption-prosecutor-burisma-donald-trump-whistleblower-complaint

 

Joe threatened to withhold $1B if the prosecutor was not fired before Joe left the country in 6 hours. Joe even told them to call Barack if they didn't believe him. The prosecutor was fired.  Not sure what part of that was US policy but I saw the videotape of Biden bragging about it so its not a lie Trump is pushing. It is a truth you are denying. It was U.S. policy - and World Bank policy to oppose Ukraine corruption which Shokin was not pursuing. If anything, Shokin's presence helped to protect Burisma - and by association, Hunter Biden.

This should not seem okay to you, no matter your political persuasion.  I'm assuming you would be fine with Trumps mentioning the Biden issue with Ukraines president if Biden were not a current candidate since that would remove you primary reason for accusing Trump of wrongdoing. I am fine with Trump trying to make a political point with the simple fact Hunter Biden took such a job based on who is father was.  But that's the end of the story.

I am not fine with Trump deliberately making up lies about why Joe Biden was applying leverage to Ukraine to get Shokin fired, which had nothing to do with protecting his son or Burisma.

You do realize that most presidents do appoint people who think like them and for the most part will tell them yes. I don't think that's true at all.  I think most of our presidents give strong consideration to hiring people who will provide them honest alternative perspectives on issues.  Trump isn't interested in alternative perspectives and he got frustrated when his staff or chief of staff tried to tell him what he was doing was illegal.

This is exactly why Trump is in trouble now - he got rid of Kelly and replaced him with Mulvaney.  The former told him what he was trying to do with Ukraine was illegal and ill-advised.  Mulvaney actively worked to make it happen:

Mulvaney emerges as a key facilitator of the campaign to pressure Ukraine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/mulvaney-emerges-as-a-key-facilitator-of-the-campaign-to-pressure-ukraine/2019/10/15/9d46b7ae-ef76-11e9-89eb-ec56cd414732_story.html