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toddc

Wiley— Gotta play tougher and meaner!

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I really think Wiley can be a high/first round pick after the season, but I wanted to see some meanness in his game. The dude looks like 6’11” Hulk! His biceps are ridiculous. He had the ball stripped a couple times last night because he’s bringing it to his waist, and he towered over everyone last night.

The other guys have to be better at getting him the ball when he’s got a mismatch too! He could’ve scored 25-30 points easily last night.

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The entry passes he was getting weren't great. Trying to lob it in there is just too easy for a quick guard to get to. They need to work on quick bounce pass entry passes to him. This coming from a guy who played (and still plays but old man league) the 5. I HATE, HATE, HATE when they lob the ball into me. I have to then move to get it and move to shield the pass from the smaller guy guarding me. Give me something low I can protect and keep my position and I can then go with the move I was already planning to use against the defender.

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12 minutes ago, jared52 said:

The entry passes he was getting weren't great. Trying to lob it in there is just too easy for a quick guard to get to. They need to work on quick bounce pass entry passes to him. This coming from a guy who played (and still plays but old man league) the 5. I HATE, HATE, HATE when they lob the ball into me. I have to then move to get it and move to shield the pass from the smaller guy guarding me. Give me something low I can protect and keep my position and I can then go with the move I was already planning to use against the defender.

they entry passing is not good, but he frequently fails to take advantage of his size advantage. I mean can I please get a drop step!!!!!!!

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3 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

they entry passing is not good, but he frequently fails to take advantage of his size advantage. I mean can I please get a drop step!!!!!!!

I hear you. And not to compare myself to him but I had a hard time with that too no matter how much I worked on it. It's just a feel thing and the defender needs to be positioned a certain way in order to feel like you can do a drop step. 

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26 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

please get a drop step!!!!!!!

HELL YES !!!!!!!!! I think Mac should do this. He has nimbler feet. My concern with AW is his hands. He sure gets stripped a bunch, and a lot of that is that he has to gather himself and brings the ball down to his chest

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I dunno. There were quite a few times where the defender was fronting Wiley in the post and there was no weakside help IIRC. You just gotta lob it up to him and we flatly didn't. You gotta make them pay for playing Austin like that.

I was hoping to see him have more reliable hands this year but it seems it just may not be in him, although it was just 1 game. He's going to be a force for us this year, we just gotta keep feeding the beast and putting him in a position to succeed.

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17 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

they entry passing is not good, but he frequently fails to take advantage of his size advantage. I mean can I please get a drop step!!!!!!!

The drop step has actually become a nice post move that Anfernee utilizes when he gets the ball in the high post.

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25 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I dunno. There were quite a few times where the defender was fronting Wiley in the post and there was no weakside help IIRC. You just gotta lob it up to him and we flatly didn't. You gotta make them pay for playing Austin like that.

I was hoping to see him have more reliable hands this year but it seems it just may not be in him, although it was just 1 game. He's going to be a force for us this year, we just gotta keep feeding the beast and putting him in a position to succeed.

As i've posted in other areas about Wiley, at his current level, feeding him hurts the offensive production of the team. It is a necessary evil though, as that is the only way he and the team will get better at it. I love a good post game, inside out,  re-spot up shooters, etc, but I am not optimistic that suddenly we will be good at it. I think he would actually play better if we just let him find his way into the game off pick and rolls, put backs, and more natural post up opportunities, rather than trying to run a set to iso him down there. I mean Ga. Southern was small, and they weren't even trying to double him, because they know if he catches with his back to the goal he isn't great.

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1 minute ago, JwgreDeux said:

As i've posted in other areas about Wiley, at his current level, feeding him hurts the offensive production of the team. It is a necessary evil though, as that is the only way he and the team will get better at it. I love a good post game, inside out,  re-spot up shooters, etc, but I am not optimistic that suddenly we will be good at it. I think he would actually play better if we just let him find his way into the game off pick and rolls, put backs, and more natural post up opportunities, rather than trying to run a set to iso him down there. I mean Ga. Southern was small, and they weren't even trying to double him, because they know if he catches with his back to the goal he isn't great.

I really can't argue with any of that. My hope is we rep him enough down there to where he will force teams to send help opening things up for others but his post game still lacks the polish needed to force our opponents' hand. He may be better suited for what you're saying PnRs, put backs, and natural post ups rather than iso-ing him. It's a cluster out there with poor entry passing and then when he finally gets it he just doesn't look smooth. But he had a nice hook shot in the 1st half but I'd have to see it more than once.

I'm a little worried what it'll look like against some of the bigs in our conference. I do like your plan for him though.

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6 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I really can't argue with any of that. My hope is we rep him enough down there to where he will force teams to send help opening things up for others but his post game still lacks the polish needed to force our opponents' hand. He may be better suited for what you're saying PnRs, put backs, and natural post ups rather than iso-ing him. It's a cluster out there with poor entry passing and then when he finally gets it he just doesn't look smooth. But he had a nice hook shot in the 1st half but I'd have to see it more than once.

I'm a little worried what it'll look like against some of the bigs in our conference. I do like your plan for him though.

That hook shot was over a 2 guard and should have been a drop step dunk.

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14 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

That hook shot was over a 2 guard and should have been a drop step dunk.

Lol right. I just want him to overwhelm smaller defenders like our smaller interior guys in the past were being crushed by our opponents. Whether it's on the glass or on the block.

But hey maybe he develops that as the season goes on. I'm trying to be hopeful lol. It starts with getting him the ball when he does have position though. 

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Here is they play we are talking about his "nice" jump hook. The context of the play is a high ball screen for a pick and roll. Instead of a pick and roll WIley and J'von recognize a switch on the screen and the team (Purifoy) clears out for an iso post up with Wiley and #2 (a 6-4 190lb sophomore guard guarding him), here is the tape so it isn't just my opinion: 

Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 10.23.34 AM.png

Wiley moves into the post, but posts up WAY too high (an issue he has in general):

Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 10.23.51 AM.pngGa Southern sags one corner defender to show that they might double if the entry pass is made, but J'von lobs it into Wiley as he sinks down a bit:

Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 10.26.28 AM.pngGa Southern doesn't double and Wiley catches takes one dribble and turns to his left and elevates for a jump hook. He makes the shot and all goes as planned, but there is absolutely no reason for him to 1) post up that high and allow a guard to keep him off the block and 2) to turn to a jump hook that far away instead of drop step to the goal. He could have gone in either direction as no help was coming! 

So everyone that wants to just blame entry passes needs to note the teams problem is both the entry pass and the post players pre/post pass. 

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There was another sequence like this in the second half as well, with an undersize defender and a too far away jump hook, he missed the one in the second half. 

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@JwgreDeux thanks for the breakdown. You're right. There is alot to be desired from our post game spanning from the entry passes to the actual post game itself. Would've loved to see him use his size to dunk on this kids face or at least force a trip to the FT line. I really prefer to see him not shoot anything outside of 3 feet from the bucket. I'm trying to remain positive lol

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6 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

Here is they play we are talking about his "nice" jump hook. The context of the play is a high ball screen for a pick and roll. Instead of a pick and roll WIley and J'von recognize a switch on the screen and the team (Purifoy) clears out for an iso post up with Wiley and #2 (a 6-4 190lb sophomore guard guarding him), here is the tape so it isn't just my opinion: 

Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 10.23.34 AM.png

Wiley moves into the post, but posts up WAY too high (an issue he has in general):

Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 10.23.51 AM.pngGa Southern sags one corner defender to show that they might double if the entry pass is made, but J'von lobs it into Wiley as he sinks down a bit:

Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 10.26.28 AM.pngGa Southern doesn't double and Wiley catches takes one dribble and turns to his left and elevates for a jump hook. He makes the shot and all goes as planned, but there is absolutely no reason for him to 1) post up that high and allow a guard to keep him off the block and 2) to turn to a jump hook that far away instead of drop step to the goal. He could have gone in either direction as no help was coming! 

So everyone that wants to just blame entry passes needs to note the teams problem is both the entry pass and the post players pre/post pass. 

So a big part of your premise is that he doesn’t know how to completely use his size/strength? That high post up could lead to some back door cuts one day, although as some people have mentioned, Wiley isn’t a great passer out the post

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I have posts back when wiley was a high school senior.  I worried how he’d play against sec bigs.  He could use a little more ruthlessness in his game - mainly on O.  I’ll never question the kids hustle and work ethic.  He has those in spades.  I like wiley a lot.  I want to see him reach his potential.  
 

to me it has a similar feel to Chuma early last year.  Has all the talent but took till end of year to force his offensive will on opposing teams.  Hope he and DP are super stars when the season ends.  I think Samir will be a 12-15 point a game guy for us without breaking a sweat.  He can be ice at the line.

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To envision that Wiley is supposed to have a polished offensive game is illogical. First he hasn't played at anytime he can feel he can post not have good position pass back out, then get the ball again. 

There isn't any part of basketball where rhythm is more important than the low post game, until he has a game where he had more than 10 opportunities each half he can't be judged. We're essentially saying nothing that effects your performance as far as getting the ball is going right but we want a good performance from you anyway! 

In the screenshot highlighted the guy in the corner on our team is just sitting there allowing one defender to play the entire half of court. Also when he gets the ball he doesn't have but one way he can go. There's a threat of being triple teamed if he takes any dribble. And actually when you're being played by a guy smaller than you the first thing they are going to call is an offensive charge if you put your shoulder down and try to get to the goal. 

Only thing I can agree with as far as that clip that should be a complaint is he should've gotten a deeper position.....But I've watched countless times him getting it and we don't throw him the ball so for all I know he could be frustrated then.

He's not perfect but he's the guy with the most talent so he should be cheered on, it's not like we can say so and so needs the ball instead of him lol. I just know I've watched many of you be more tolerant of players with as many mistakes....and literally fight for anther player to receive any criticism at all. I don't understand that part. I just understand the basketball part. But I do know if ANYBODY of this team should be catered to as far as getting him the ball in the right positions and continually feeding him it's this guy. Literally if he's not injured he holds the most importance if this team goes anywhere or not because there aren't any other mismatches offensively with this team and we don't have the creative scorers that we did

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9 hours ago, cole256 said:

Only thing I can agree with as far as that clip that should be a complaint is he should've gotten a deeper position.....But I've watched countless times him getting it and we don't throw him the ball so for all I know he could be frustrated then.

I was gonna say something similar. When Wiley does establish lower position, the angles seem to bother our guards and their ability to make a good entry pass.

One thing that could help when he does catch too high is if our perimeter guys would drift to space allowing Wiley to kick and repost deeper.

I think our perimeter guys need to be better at moving after the entry. They are a lot moments where they are watching the game after they pass it in.

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13 hours ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

So a big part of your premise is that he doesn’t know how to completely use his size/strength? That high post up could lead to some back door cuts one day, although as some people have mentioned, Wiley isn’t a great passer out the post

What's he been here...three years of coaching and still can't take advantage of his unique size and strength.    I'd hope he has a personal "big man" coach but not showing the results if he does.   Hoping that was an opening game issue....

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We hesitate to long to pass it to him.  It’s like a qb that stares down a receiver .... we telegraph it sometimes.  The dude a working his tail off to get positioned for the pass.  Don’t wait 3-5 seconds.  Recognize it and send the pass in ... and not always a lob

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18 hours ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

So a big part of your premise is that he doesn’t know how to completely use his size/strength? That high post up could lead to some back door cuts one day, although as some people have mentioned, Wiley isn’t a great passer out the post

Yes, my premise is he doesn't fully maximize his size/strength. We don't want Wiley high posting and making passes. Okoro could do that, and I hope he does it tonight vs Davidson. Wiley should focus on posting up in as favorable position as possible, catching and turning towards the basket most of the time. Think more Shaq and less Tim Duncan. The only pass we should really look for him to make is to kick it out when either he is doubled, or simply doesn't have good enough position. 

IMO he has yet to show he has the skill set to post him at the high post.

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If we do a hi lo post game Wiley shouldn't be the guy high. I didn't even realize that was being said. I don't know why anybody would want that, that doesn't make sense

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1 hour ago, JwgreDeux said:

Yes, my premise is he doesn't fully maximize his size/strength. We don't want Wiley high posting and making passes. Okoro could do that, and I hope he does it tonight vs Davidson. Wiley should focus on posting up in as favorable position as possible, catching and turning towards the basket most of the time. Think more Shaq and less Tim Duncan. The only pass we should really look for him to make is to kick it out when either he is doubled, or simply doesn't have good enough position. 

IMO he has yet to show he has the skill set to post him at the high post.

Yeah I didn’t want him doing that, it was just my way of rationalizing allowing a guy who’s at that spot so often to keep doing it (to the detriment of himself and the offense) 

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5 hours ago, mustache eagle said:

We hesitate to long to pass it to him.  It’s like a qb that stares down a receiver .... we telegraph it sometimes.  The dude a working his tail off to get positioned for the pass.  Don’t wait 3-5 seconds.  Recognize it and send the pass in ... and not always a lob

That’s why I think we’re never going to have a total picture of Wiley’s offensive value. Guy will likely never have the advantage of guards who can set him up. The discussion around him is always going to feature that nugget and/or his hands, or his post position, or his small set of go to moves 

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1 hour ago, cole256 said:

If we do a hi lo post game Wiley shouldn't be the guy high. I didn't even realize that was being said. I don't know why anybody would want that, that doesn't make sense

Correct, I was thinking Okoro up high

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