Impeachment Inquiry What do y'all think?

[bigbird 60,440]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

You’re confusing that with the excuse to kill the Iranian without congressional consult.

Isn't it the same Obama used for his 2800 attacks without congressional approval?

[AuburnNTexas 7,133]

Prior to our Constitution most trials in the World were of the variety you are accused you must be guilty  so you have to prove your innocence.  The framers of our Constitution bent over backwards to be sure the defendant was protected and put the onus on the Prosecution to make a case. I thought the House Impeachment hearings were unfair and one sided but I am sure there are people who disagree with me. The good news is it was a hearing for the purpose of gathering information and coming up with the articles of Impeachment and was not an actual trial.. 

The Senate is where a real trial takes place and where the rights of the Defendant become paramount.  The House Managers will be acting as the Prosecutors  and the Presidents Lawyers will represent him.  I believe Justice Robert's will allow the defense a good bit of latitude in things like calling Witnesses to aid the Defense. 

There are two Basic charges one Abuse of Power and two Obstruction of Justice. The second is by far the weaker of the two as it is based on fact that Trump told multiple people not to testify during the House hearing. He invoked Executive Privilege. I believe the Defense will bring up at least one Legal scholar who will bring up multiple examples where other Presidents have done the same and it was not considered  Obstruction of Justice since Congress did not follow through with taking it to court.  On Abuse of Power multiple examples of where previous Presidents have tried to do things like legislate via Executive order which is technically an Abuse of Power but never prosecuted and that they will come back to a few points one that Military aid was released to Ukraine (including aid the previous administration would not provide),  that Ukraine never opened an investigation into Burisma because of aid being withheld, and that the Ukrainian President has stated multiple times he did not feel pressured, finally that Vice President Biden publicly stated that he told  Ukraine if it did not get rid of the Prosecutor who was pushing the Burisma investigation before Trump became President he would withhold support for the Ukraine government (which is basically what the Abuse of Power article is about).   I realize other countries also thought the prosecutor pushing the Burisma investigation was corrupt and he might have been but Biden's threat was interfering with another Government which is what some Democrats are trying to say is what Trump was trying to do.  I would not be surprised to see dirt laundry of previous Presidents having coerced foreign Governments and ask why those times no articles of Impeachment were brought.

 

[AuburnNTexas 7,133]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

You’re confusing that with the excuse to kill the Iranian without congressional consult.

We are talking about the trial due to the Articles of Impeachment, There is nothing in the killing of Solemeni in the article's so why bring that up here.  There is a great deal of latitude in what the Commander-in-Chief can do with authorizing attacks. Multiple Presidents have used this latitude in what they say is defense of the Country or our service members. 

[TexasTiger 12,826]

12 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Isn't it the same Obama used for his 2800 attacks without congressional approval?

Any targeted assassinations based on imminent threats to 4 embassies, but were greenlit 7 months earlier? Link?

[bigbird 60,440]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Any targeted assassinations based on imminent threats to 4 embassies, but were greenlit 7 months earlier? Link?

I'm just curious as to why you are now concerned with POTUS getting congressional approval for the same type of attacks.

[TexasTiger 12,826]

39 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I'm just curious as to why you are now concerned with POTUS getting congressional approval for the same type of attacks.

I think Congress was wrong to cede so much control to any executive. It happened before Obama and he took advantage of it, too. Congress is lazy and and prefers to abdicate their duties. This is not a partisan issue, imo.

[AuburnNTexas 7,133]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

I think Congress was wrong to cede so much control to any executive. It happened before Obama and he took advantage of it, too. Congress is lazy and and prefers to abdicate their duties. This is not a partisan issue, imo.

I agree with you that Congress ceded to much power to Executive branch. I have said the same thing on things like Obama's Executive Order on the Dreamer's even though I agreed with what Obama was trying to do.  The problem is until Congress finds a way to regain the control they gave away what Trump did with Solemeni and what Obama did in authorizing Drone strikes against terrorists were legal and within the power that Congress ceded.

[TexasTiger 12,826]

3 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

We are talking about the trial due to the Articles of Impeachment, There is nothing in the killing of Solemeni in the article's so why bring that up here.  There is a great deal of latitude in what the Commander-in-Chief can do with authorizing attacks. Multiple Presidents have used this latitude in what they say is defense of the Country or our service members. 

If it’s easy to justify, quit lying and changing the story 

[AuburnNTexas 7,133]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

If it’s easy to justify, quit lying and changing the story 

I am not the one lying and changing the story.  We were talking about impeachment and then out of nowhere you bring up the killing of Solemeni which had nothing to do with the impeachment. You are the one who changed the story.  I agreed with you Presidents have been given to much Power by Congress hence Obama doing extra judicial killings and now Trump. Again though not related to impeachment. 

As usual when somebody confronts you and you don't have empirical evidence you attack the poster and in this case accuse me of lying. 

[TexasTiger 12,826]

1 hour ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I am not the one lying and changing the story.  We were talking about impeachment and then out of nowhere you bring up the killing of Solemeni which had nothing to do with the impeachment. You are the one who changed the story.  I agreed with you Presidents have been given to much Power by Congress hence Obama doing extra judicial killings and now Trump. Again though not related to impeachment. 

As usual when somebody confronts you and you don't have empirical evidence you attack the poster and in this case accuse me of lying. 

You indicated it was easily justifiable, and yet Trump fabricates new reasons almost daily— is that just the pathology at work?

[AuburnNTexas 7,133]

13 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You indicated it was easily justifiable, and yet Trump fabricates new reasons almost daily— is that just the pathology at work?

I never said it was easily justifiable I said the killing of Solemeni was legal just like Obama's use of Drones to kill terrorists in other countries. But my biggest point is this Topic of discussiont was about the impeachment and then out of nowhere you bring up this killing which has nothing what so ever to do with the Articles of Impeachment and the pending trial. I was questioning why you brought this up as it is irrelevant to Impeachment.

[Grumps 3,704]

Did Congress approve the assassinations of these two U.S citizens? 

Can you imagine the outrage if Trump had done this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled al-Aulaqi, al-Awlaqi; Arabic: أنور العولقي‎ Anwar al-‘Awlaqī; April 21/22, 1971 – September 30, 2011) was a Yemeni-American imam. U.S. government officials allege that, as well as being a senior recruiter and motivator, he was centrally involved in planning terrorist operations for the Islamist militant group al-Qaeda,^{[7][8][9][10][11]} but have not released evidence that could support this claim.^[11] Al-Awlaki became the first U.S. citizen to be targeted and killed by a U.S. drone strike without the rights of due process being afforded.^[12][13] President Barack Obama ordered the strike.^[14] His son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki (a 16-year-old U.S. citizen), was killed in a U.S. drone strike two weeks later.^[15] 

In April 2010, al-Awlaki was placed on a CIA kill list by President Barack Obama due to his alleged terrorist activities.^[35][36][37] Al-Awlaki's father and civil rights groups challenged the order in court.^{[35][37][38][39]} Al-Awlaki was believed to be in hiding in southeast Yemen in the last years of his life.^[29] The U.S. deployed unmanned aircraft (drones) in Yemen to search for and kill him,^[40] firing at and failing to kill him at least once;^[41] he was successfully killed on September 30, 2011.^[13] Two weeks later, al-Awlaki's 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen who was born in Denver, Colorado, was also killed by a CIA-led drone strike in Yemen.^[15][42][43] Nasser al-Awlaki, Anwar's father, released an audio recording condemning the killings of his son and grandson as senseless murders.^[44] In June 2014, a previously classified memorandum issued by the U.S. Department of Justice was released, justifying al-Awlaki's death as a lawful act of war.^[45] Some civil liberties advocates have described the incident as "an extrajudicial execution" that breached al-Awlaki's right to due process, including a trial.^[46]

[TexasTiger 12,826]

9 hours ago, Grumps said:

Did Congress approve the assassinations of these two U.S citizens? 

Can you imagine the outrage if Trump had done this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled al-Aulaqi, al-Awlaqi; Arabic: أنور العولقي‎ Anwar al-‘Awlaqī; April 21/22, 1971 – September 30, 2011) was a Yemeni-American imam. U.S. government officials allege that, as well as being a senior recruiter and motivator, he was centrally involved in planning terrorist operations for the Islamist militant group al-Qaeda,^{[7][8][9][10][11]} but have not released evidence that could support this claim.^[11] Al-Awlaki became the first U.S. citizen to be targeted and killed by a U.S. drone strike without the rights of due process being afforded.^[12][13] President Barack Obama ordered the strike.^[14] His son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki (a 16-year-old U.S. citizen), was killed in a U.S. drone strike two weeks later.^[15] 

In April 2010, al-Awlaki was placed on a CIA kill list by President Barack Obama due to his alleged terrorist activities.^[35][36][37] Al-Awlaki's father and civil rights groups challenged the order in court.^{[35][37][38][39]} Al-Awlaki was believed to be in hiding in southeast Yemen in the last years of his life.^[29] The U.S. deployed unmanned aircraft (drones) in Yemen to search for and kill him,^[40] firing at and failing to kill him at least once;^[41] he was successfully killed on September 30, 2011.^[13] Two weeks later, al-Awlaki's 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen who was born in Denver, Colorado, was also killed by a CIA-led drone strike in Yemen.^[15][42][43] Nasser al-Awlaki, Anwar's father, released an audio recording condemning the killings of his son and grandson as senseless murders.^[44] In June 2014, a previously classified memorandum issued by the U.S. Department of Justice was released, justifying al-Awlaki's death as a lawful act of war.^[45] Some civil liberties advocates have described the incident as "an extrajudicial execution" that breached al-Awlaki's right to due process, including a trial.^[46]

But Republicans tell me Obama was a secret Muslim who was sympathetic to terrorists. 

One was targeted, one accidental. There was outrage— mostly from Democrats and progressives.

Trump needs to make the FACTUAL case for his actions. There’s a rationale for the killing— make it in a straightforward way without making up “facts”. Some will disagree with the legality. Some will disagree with the wisdom. Folks did vigorously disagree with the al-Awalki killing. Obama provided his rationale. Folks argued with it. Trump can’t just do that. He pathologically lies about the matter every time he’s asked. That’s my issue. Present the facts and legal arguments and then folks can decide if they agree or not. Many won’t— that’s always the case.

[DKW 86 7,418]

4 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

But Republicans tell me Obama was a secret Muslim who was sympathetic to terrorists. 

One was targeted, one accidental. There was outrage— mostly from Democrats and progressives.

Yea, sure...If you had 10,000 Dems and Progressives in a room you might get a handful that were mildly upset.
Brother, I am sorry, but saying that there was anything more than a whiff in the MSM or even in the second tier media is just nutz.
Whatever Obama did when he was droning half the middle east did one thing, it kept the world from all out war and kept our troops from full scale warfare. But the droning did so much damage to our relations in the ME, we wont recover for decades. We were droning down whole wedding parties, schools, etc The collateral damage was huge. 

And all but a very very few were fine with it at the time. I think we need to get out of the ME and let the Russians and the Europe deal with them. They are 50 or more years from democracy or freedom. It is just not in them now and might not be then.

[SaltyTiger 7,773]

6 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Trump needs to make the FACTUAL case for his actions. There’s a rationale for the killing— make it in a straightforward way without making up “facts”.

Any case he made would do little to change anyone's mindset about the thing.  

 Politicians are not all the same when it comes to lying. President Trump has made many more false statements than any of his modern predecessors, and only some of his falsehoods pass the test of not being self-serving. This looseness with the truth now hampers him when he makes a claim that there was an imminent threat that legalized the Soleimani killing.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/478334-telling-lies-trumps-trouble-with-the-truth-in-soleimanis-death

Did you ever tell us what this has to do with the impeachment? Just curious. 

What did you think of Nancy's ceremony yesterday?

 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

[DKW 86 7,418]

On 1/15/2020 at 6:01 PM, AuburnNTexas said:

I am not the one lying and changing the story.  We were talking about impeachment and then out of nowhere you bring up the killing of Solemeni which had nothing to do with the impeachment. You are the one who changed the story.  I agreed with you Presidents have been given to much Power by Congress hence Obama doing extra judicial killings and now Trump. Again though not related to impeachment. 

As usual when somebody confronts you and you don't have empirical evidence you attack the poster and in this case accuse me of lying. 

Rinse and Repeat.

Still waiting on my request for links and citations. Never going to happen tho.

[homersapien 11,357]

On 1/15/2020 at 2:25 PM, bigbird said:

I'm just curious as to why you are now concerned with POTUS getting congressional approval for the same type of attacks.

Because they aren't the same.  Assassinating one of the top officials in a sovereign country is typically seen as an act of war and thus equivalent to a declaration of war.  That is the critical difference that is generating the criticism of not consulting with Congress in this case.

None of the individuals Obama attacked come close to qualifying as an act of war against other country.  They were members of terrorist groups, not some high level official in another sovereign country. 

While I am not sure whether or not Obama notified the appropriate Congressional committees beforehand, but the requirement to do so would have been greatly attenuated, if existent at all for these "targets".

[homersapien 11,357]

3 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

 

Rinse and Repeat.

Still waiting on my request for links and citations. Never going to happen tho.

....Says the guy who couldn't produce the post containing the position he accuses me of lying about not having. 

 

 

[DKW 86 7,418]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

....Says the guy who couldn't produce the post containing the position he accuses me of lying about not having. 

I provided the post repeatedly, I have also stated plainly that I do not believe one word of your convoluted explanation of what you said.

Only a fool would believe your lunatic explanation and I am no fool. So get it right for once. I have called your explanation a flat out lie and continue to call it a lie. 

Speaking of your statement CONGRATULATIONS, you finally got your wish, Trump is Impeached, two years later for something having nothing to do with anything you stated.

You can join the Nadler, Schiff, Pelosi, Waters, Schumer group that announced 2-3 years prior to Trump calling Ukraine that they were going to Impeach Trump for something...whatever...whatchamacallit...thing-a-ma-bob...

 

[DKW 86 7,418]

33 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Because they aren't the same.  Assassinating one of the top officials in a sovereign country is typically seen as an act of war and thus equivalent to a declaration of war.  That is the critical difference that is generating the criticism of not consulting with Congress in this case.

None of the individuals Obama attacked come close to qualifying as an act of war against other country.  They were members of terrorist groups, not some high level official in another sovereign country. 

While I am not sure whether or not Obama notified the appropriate Congressional committees beforehand, but the requirement to do so would have been greatly attenuated, if existent at all for these "targets".

So murdering a US Citizen with a Drone is A-Okay, even without a trial or even a legal investigation?
But killing off a bad actor in a Army Uniform that has openly murdered 100s, if not 1000s, or even 10,000s to try and stop a war is a bad thing?

Do you ever read your own posts?

You are laugh-out-loud crazy at times.

[bigbird 60,440]

5 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

...group that announced 2-3 years prior to Trump calling Ukraine that they were going to Impeach Trump for something...whatever...whatchamacallit...thing-a-ma-bob

That's crazy that would never happen.

[DKW 86 7,418]

Just now, bigbird said:

That's crazy that would never happen. 

I know, sounds crazy dont it..But it indeed happened...

[homersapien 11,357]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

I provided the post repeatedly, I have also stated plainly that I do not believe one word of your convoluted explanation of what you said.

 

 

Now you are lying.  I never made that statement and you could not provide it.

(You even allowed as to how you might have "inferred" it but still doubled down on my lying about it.)

I know exactly what happened David.  There was not "convoluted explanation".  You were very precise in what you claimed and I was quite simple in my denial of ever saying it.  You could not produce the post because it doesn't exist.

That's why I know you have no integrity. You cannot even admit what was probably an honest mistake - if it means admitting you were wrong.

You are more than a little crazy and I am not going to waste my time trying to reason with you.

[bigbird 60,440]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

I know, sounds crazy dont it..But it indeed happened...

Well, then I'm sure they had tons of irrefutable, concrete evidence and had full bipartisan support