Leading Evangelical magazine: Trump should be removed from office

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

On 12/20/2019 at 10:33 AM, AU64 said:

Otherwise, the leaders of most Protestant denominations are far left, much more so than the membership which is one reason people are bailing out on them.  Further for example,  most of the writings and opinions attributed to the United Methodist Church are  actually the opinions of a handful of people at the top are not necessarily "the church".

You nailed it here 64. 

Will go further and say that few of the " rank and file" pay attention to the " Evangelical Leaders" or recognize them as such. 

[AU64 10,122]

6 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

You nailed it here 64. 

Will go further and say that few of the " rank and file" pay attention to the " Evangelical Leaders" or recognize them as such. 

Good point Salty. The Protestant denominations are essentially laity driven churches and in my view at least, the leaders are given much more attention by the media than by the membership.

Much to my sorrow the leadership of United Methodist church is in the process of destroying the denomination by heading off in directions that are not supported by the majority of the members and adopting policies that are not consistent with the historic Discipline of the church.

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

On 12/20/2019 at 2:16 PM, Brad_ATX said:

While morality is certainly not a requirement to be POTUS, the author is saying that if someone as a Christian witness screamed about Clinton's morality and unfitness for office based on those grounds (and there were many) but not about Trump's, then said person is inherently being hypocritical.  The identifying political party of the leader should have no bearing on morality standards for those who vote and claim themselves to be Christian.

And you are right about the hypocrisy and Clinton Brad. That was years ago, weak but easy defense or whatever. We know that Christians feel threatened today, more so than in the Clinton era. Huge is that Christians, regardless of Trumps moral issues feel that he is an ally. Perhaps some of his opponents need to realize how he accomplishes it.   

 

[AU64 10,122]

13 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

And you are right about the hypocrisy and Clinton Brad. That was years ago, weak but easy defense or whatever. We know that Christians feel threatened today, more so than in the Clinton era. Huge is that Christians, regardless of Trumps moral issues feel that he is an ally. Perhaps some of his opponents need to realize how he accomplishes it.   

 

A substantial part of the voting public was not even alive during the Clinton issues, or certainly not old enough to be aware of what was going on. Further if you look around the younger generation, whether they be millennials or such are not near as concerned about religion or morality is previous generations. That could be why no one is paying much attention to  the argument about Trump's immorality. Moral inconsistencies are all around us ...sports , music, the  Hollywood crowd and the politicians in Washington.

Non- Christians seem to tolerate all these things among their friends and I guess many Christians have become pragmatist and and ignore those issues if they feel it is in their best interest. I believe it is pretty well accepted that people vote for what they feel is in their self-interest.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

8 minutes ago, AU64 said:

A substantial part of the voting public was not even alive during the Clinton issues, or certainly not old enough to be aware of what was going on. Further if you look around the younger generation, whether they be millennials or such are not near as concerned about religion or morality is previous generations. That could be why no one is paying much attention to  the argument about Trump's immorality. Moral inconsistencies are all around us ...sports , music, the  Hollywood crowd and the politicians in Washington.

Non- Christians seem to tolerate all these things among their friends and I guess many Christians have become pragmatist and and ignore those issues if they feel it is in their best interest. I believe it is pretty well accepted that people vote for what they feel is in their self-interest.

Yup.  But do you feel that is doing as Jesus commanded?  My understanding of the Bible is that the answer is unequivocally no.

[ToraGirl 5,498]

58 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Good point Salty. The Protestant denominations are essentially laity driven churches and in my view at least, the leaders are given much more attention by the media than by the membership.

Much to my sorrow the leadership of United Methodist church is in the process of destroying the denomination by heading off in directions that are not supported by the majority of the members and adopting policies that are not consistent with the historic Discipline of the church.

I'm so sorry, 64. I understand TOO well. My husband was an ordained UM pastor for 20 years, with us serving faithfully each of our 5 appointments, developing the reputation as "turnaround specialists." No easy call. When appointed to turn around a "stuck plant", which at year 5 had spent the conference allocation, we tried our best. Listening to three bosses who couldn't agree on the future of the plant but kept upping the benchmarks with no emotional support or financial assistance, we fasted, prayed, and gave up guaranteed appointment, housing, trajectory salary, insurance, many connections, and more by taking the faith step to continue the plant independently as a nondenominational congregation... albeit Wesleyan-influenced. 2005-2019 has been the greatest faith test but wonderful adventure of our lives. I often wonder if we might not have stepped away for other theological reasons down the road, but truly for us, the Spirit's nudge and palpable presence after exhausting all alternatives in good faith made the risk worth it all. We are still connected to so many UM friends who share your thoughts. 

[AU64 10,122]

39 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Yup.  But do you feel that is doing as Jesus commanded?  My understanding of the Bible is that the answer is unequivocally no.

That is kind of hard to say I guess. I try my best to live a good Christian Life but I also don't make it my job to criticize or chastise those who don't. I have non-Christian friends and we get along just fine.

In my church at least we do not spend our time criticizing others. Our pastor preaches about God's love and encourages us to share that with everyone we meet.

[AU64 10,122]

Thanks for your commitment and Faith Tora. It is a tough time to be in the ministry. UMC pastors have been taking early retirement all over the place lately and generally about theological and management concerns. We have a new female pastor and she really has her work cut out for her trying to hold our small church together which she is mostly doing by downplaying the stuff coming from further up the line and keeping us focused on our local church family.

[ToraGirl 5,498]

4 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Thanks for your commitment and Faith Tora. It is a tough time to be in the ministry. UMC pastors have been taking early retirement all over the place lately and generally about theological and management concerns. We have a new female pastor and she really has her work cut out for her trying to hold our small church together which she is mostly doing by downplaying the stuff coming from further up the line and keeping us focused on our local church family.

We found that, for a season, you can somewhat hide under the radar and do exactly as she is doing...the beauty of laity-run helps, too. "As long as we paid our apportionments..." 😉 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

25 minutes ago, AU64 said:

That is kind of hard to say I guess. I try my best to live a good Christian Life but I also don't make it my job to criticize or chastise those who don't. I have non-Christian friends and we get along just fine.

In my church at least we do not spend our time criticizing others. Our pastor preaches about God's love and encourages us to share that with everyone we meet.

I'm not a Christian, but I think your answer sort of avoids the question.  I'm telling you that from my perspective as a non-Christian who grew up in the church, the willingness to back a candidate or political figure in "self-interest" absolutely destroys any witness that someone could make to me.  I have no interest in listening to someone talk about faith with me if their actions don't back up the teachings that they are trying to champion.  And I'm one of many who feel that way. 

It's why I find it refreshing to read the article in the OP.  It's nice to finally see some consistency from someone.  Whether or not I agree with their stance on Clinton or Trump, at least the author and the magazine is standing beside long held beliefs and not compromising their positions for "self-interests" as you put it.  I can respect that stance.

[Grumps 3,693]

8 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

I'm not a Christian, but I think your answer sort of avoids the question.  I'm telling you that from my perspective as a non-Christian who grew up in the church, the willingness to back a candidate or political figure in "self-interest" absolutely destroys any witness that someone could make to me.  I have no interest in listening to someone talk about faith with me if their actions don't back up the teachings that they are trying to champion.  And I'm one of many who feel that way. 

It's why I find it refreshing to read the article in the OP.  It's nice to finally see some consistency from someone.  Whether or not I agree with their stance on Clinton or Trump, at least the author and the magazine is standing beside long held beliefs and not compromising their positions for "self-interests" as you put it.  I can respect that stance.

The problem is that there will never be a candidate who is not flawed. If the two choices of candidates were Trump and Jesus then you would be completely justified in calling anyone claiming to be a Christian a hypocrite for voting for Trump. When the two choices are Trump and Ms. Clinton then voting at all is voting for a tremendously flawed person.

I don't think that Ms. Clinton was obviously Jesus' choice, so me voting against her does not seem anti-Christian at all. I don't like Trump at all but I do think that the right for a person to live his/her Christian faith is easier now that it was 4 years ago, though that is not completely a good thing.

I COMPLETELY agree with you that if someone who claims to be a Christian has no problem with the way Trump treats people, then that person is a HUGE hypocrite. I also agree with you that Trump being POTUS makes it less likely for a non-Christian in this country to become a Christian.

Lastly, and this may seem like a cop-out, though I don't think it is...I truly don't think Jesus cares at all about our politics or who the POTUS is, I believe that He is concerned about our hearts and that we love Him and love each other. Jesus told those around Him to submit to the government while they were under Roman rule. He told the Jews to carry the Roman soldiers' gear twice as far as they were legally required to. He wants me to love Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi even though my natural tendency is to despise them both. I think it can be very complicated and misleading to attribute Christian values to a government that does not have a soul.

[DKW 86 7,411]

On 12/19/2019 at 11:28 PM, DKW 86 said:

My only question here...Why did this take over three years to come out? 

DJT was rotten before he ran for office..,

 

19 minutes ago, Grumps said:

The problem is that there will never be a candidate who is not flawed. If the two choices of candidates were Trump and Jesus then you would be completely justified in calling anyone claiming to be a Christian a hypocrite for voting for Trump. When the two choices are Trump and Ms. Clinton then voting at all is voting for a tremendously flawed person.

I don't think that Ms. Clinton was obviously Jesus' choice, so me voting against her does not seem anti-Christian at all. I don't like Trump at all but I do think that the right for a person to live his/her Christian faith is easier now that it was 4 years ago, though that is not completely a good thing.

I COMPLETELY agree with you that if someone who claims to be a Christian has no problem with the way Trump treats people, then that person is a HUGE hypocrite. I also agree with you that Trump being POTUS makes it less likely for a non-Christian in this country to become a Christian.

Lastly, and this may seem like a cop-out, though I don't think it is...I truly don't think Jesus cares at all about our politics or who the POTUS is, I believe that He is concerned about our hearts and that we love Him and love each other. Jesus told those around Him to submit to the government while they were under Roman rule. He told the Jews to carry the Roman soldiers' gear twice as far as they were legally required to. He wants me to love Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi even though my natural tendency is to despise them both. I think it can be very complicated and misleading to attribute Christian values to a government that does not have a soul.

DJT vs HRC
Pelosi vs McConnell

HRC, Pelosi,  & McConnell: Are all equally corrupt.
DJT also adds unqualified. 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

All flawed, subjects and posters. All responsible for our own thoughts and actions. All accountable, here and in the future. All have hands full with self-issues and can deal with human systems, wows and warts, at the ballot box.

I, too, was raised in a large-by-some-standards church, front pew every Sunday, Auburn UMC. GREAT church which recovered well from the Kopper Kettle blast (anyone remember?) and in my era, very social justice oriented. Not a lot of talk about personal holiness or relationship with Jesus. 

It took my first boyfriend, at 16, from rival Opelika High, active in his more Biblically-based youth group, to have the courage to say..."I know you are a "good girl" and you are always trying to do the right thing, but have you ever given your life to Jesus?"

I was furious for a week, injured pride and swirling questions. But on April 1, 1983 (I know, what a date; atheists laugh, I don't care anymore), a Light I couldn't run from any longer changed a heart that didn't even know it needed to. ❤🦋

We have the same 24 hours in a day as long as we're here...but what we don't know or have is the foreknowledge of when those days will end. Unlike the communistic mantra, "Religion is the opiate of the people", I am not fearful about my own death, needing a pacifier. I am thrilled about the hope of Heaven, grateful that my impurity is covered by the greatest act of love and ensuing mercy alive ever known. I'd love for everyone to know and accept that gift, doing life imperfectly as we strive for perfection, helping this broken earth bear the weight of its fallen nature--selfishness, dissension, greed, and the specifics we all see--but we know from reading the Manual or even not that some won't. And that is actually on them in the end. Like Blaise Pascal, I haven't lost a thing if I have placed my hope in something that doesn't exist. 

The desire to share the Good News--by word and action-- is what defines me as an evangelical. Like Grumps said, I always pray to have an electable moral choice, glad to have a choice at all, by Founders' design. Our present situation has little to compliment in a moral sense, but when I meet Him face to face as all are destined to do, God won't be interested in my conversation about the POTUS or those who, for lack of a better choice in their perception, cringe but support him (or her) and follow Scripture's command to pray for our leaders, no matter who, for their season.

God has put people in our lives, historical and present WorldChangers, who actually made a lasting difference in improving the messiness because of their surrender to Christ's teachings and actions, enough to rob us of any excuse not to believe.  Choose or not choose, but put it squarely and only on yourself. Only God can soften a heart to make it ready to listen and absorb, and He does it in countless ways.

I detest politics in a game-playing sense, but I agree with you all that we're each just trying to make sense of something we've not seen in human leadership...AND SOCIETY... in our lifetime. Roman Empire-reminiscent in many ways. Social media, broken families, and societal decay are game-changers. Here's to hoping 2020's pool of the flawed will be a little less muddy. 

Merry Christmas to all...how blessed we are! Thank you for all you are and do...in each's various corner and profession of the world...to make it better. You're loved immeasurably...and you matter!

P.S. Driven By Eternity by John Bevere is very thought-provoking. For me, it's not what awaits but has already been done that moves me, but still, super thought-provoking.

[AU64 10,122]

10 hours ago, ToraGirl said:

We found that, for a season, you can somewhat hide under the radar and do exactly as she is doing...the beauty of laity-run helps, too. "As long as we paid our apportionments..." 😉 

We pay most of them but as you may know, many churches are holding back now in protest to the direction the church is going.    We try to pay the local and conference first and the other if we have the money.     We blame the BGM and it's policies for some of our problems....people leaving over their "pronouncements" .

Protestant churches are disarray.....our new pastor is great....was a Baptist but when she was ordained she was not allowed to preach because she was divorced earlier in her life....so we were lucky she landed on our door step. 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

1 minute ago, AU64 said:

We pay most of them but as you may know, many churches are holding back now in protest to the direction the church is going.    We try to pay the local and conference first and the other if we have the money.     We blame the BGM and it's policies for some of our problems....people leaving over their "pronouncements" .

Protestant churches are disarray.....our new pastor is great....was a Baptist but when she was ordained she was not allowed to preach because she was divorced earlier in her life....so we were lucky she landed on our door step. 

I am thankful for this blessing for you and for her! No...we've been out of the system since 2005...I didn't know about the withholding, and good! I am so glad the local church has some recourse here. The grassroots often has to set the accountability tone. The UMC has avoided the chasmic split that many other denominations have taken, but there has been a cost and a division that's unprecedented. We ache for all who are trying to honor Wesley's quadrilateral...first Scripture, then Tradition, Reason, Experience. Keep the faith...it will prevail when human systems...government and church...finally collapse. Expecting underground, just as it started, just as is common now in the persecuted countries. Voice of the Martyrs and Operation World  are organizations we keep our eyes and prayers toward. 

[AU64 10,122]

10 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

I'm not a Christian, but I think your answer sort of avoids the question.  I'm telling you that from my perspective as a non-Christian who grew up in the church, the willingness to back a candidate or political figure in "self-interest" absolutely destroys any witness that someone could make to me.  I have no interest in listening to someone talk about faith with me if their actions don't back up the teachings that they are trying to champion.  And I'm one of many who feel that way. 

It's why I find it refreshing to read the article in the OP.  It's nice to finally see some consistency from someone.  Whether or not I agree with their stance on Clinton or Trump, at least the author and the magazine is standing beside long held beliefs and not compromising their positions for "self-interests" as you put it.  I can respect that stance.

That's your choice and I hope some day you might re-visit the issue.  BUT... it really bothers me when non-Christians think they know what I should think or believe base on their interpretation of scripture.    You might want to go back a read a few of the parables to get caught up on Christian belief and Jesus's teachings.  And read the most important commandments....love God and love your neighbor.      JMO but your definition of witness is really unusual and I suggest you can witness your faith (or lack of it) by how you live your life and not telling others how to live theirs. 

As noted in the OP, there are Christians who will gladly tell others how to live their lives and "call them out" for not doing it the way the think they should.   Usually the non-Christian society gets bent out of shape over their "judgmental" attitudes and bitterness toward a sinner.....but not here it seems.    Hate the sin, love the sinner?   Not for some people.    

[Grumps 3,693]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

 

DJT vs HRC
Pelosi vs McConnell

HRC, Pelosi,  & McConnell: Are all equally corrupt.
DJT also adds unqualified. 

I agree with your point, but DJT actually meets every qualification for being POTUS whether he is more corrupt than the others or not.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, AU64 said:

That's your choice and I hope some day you might re-visit the issue.  BUT... it really bothers me when non-Christians think they know what I should think or believe base on their interpretation of scripture.    You might want to go back a read a few of the parables to get caught up on Christian belief and Jesus's teachings.  And read the most important commandments....love God and love your neighbor.      JMO but your definition of witness is really unusual and I suggest you can witness your faith (or lack of it) by how you live your life and not telling others how to live theirs. 

As noted in the OP, there are Christians who will gladly tell others how to live their lives and "call them out" for not doing it the way the think they should.   Usually the non-Christian society gets bent out of shape over their "judgmental" attitudes and bitterness toward a sinner.....but not here it seems.    Hate the sin, love the sinner?   Not for some people.    

Dude, I grew up in the Church.  I've read the Bible front to back.  I'm not some ignoramus when it comes to the teachings of God and Jesus.

And my definition of "witness" here isn't about telling others what to do.  It's about those who try to witness to me while their actions are antithetical to the message.  Part of that includes how they view/speak about the people they vote for.  It comes across as hypocritical.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

40 minutes ago, Grumps said:

I agree with your point, but DJT actually meets every qualification for being POTUS whether he is more corrupt than the others or not.

The only legal qualifications for being POTUS are that one is a naturally born U.S. citizen, resident for 14 years, and over 35 years of age.  That's not a high bar we're setting here.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

4 hours ago, Grumps said:

The problem is that there will never be a candidate who is not flawed. If the two choices of candidates were Trump and Jesus then you would be completely justified in calling anyone claiming to be a Christian a hypocrite for voting for Trump. When the two choices are Trump and Ms. Clinton then voting at all is voting for a tremendously flawed person.

You are always given more than one choice.  That write in box exists for a reason.

[AU64 10,122]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

You are always given more than one choice.  That write in box exists for a reason.

Might as well not bother to vote if you do a write in.  ...or even vote aa third party.  ...wasting your vote and IMO but doing your duty.    

As for the bar and how low it's set....that's about all you could get away with these days anyway except if you are a Dem candidate and have to meet one of their litmus tests …..or purity tests as mayor Pete called it.     

As for your biblical knowledge, you seem kind of touchy on the subject of religion.....but good that you have read the bible...and if you want to put your interpretation on it that is OK....but please don't assume that yours is the "gospel".  And maybe go back and read it again with less anger.  ...especially the parts about judging others, casting the first stone, removing the mote from your own eye,.....etc.           

I've seen almost nobody defending DTs lifestyle so not sure what you are getting that....and voting is not the same thing.  

You might give us a look at your ballot from the last election so that we understand which candidates are sin-free and worthy of support. 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

Think it's important to remember that those who do believe in God also believe that He has and does work through, around, and often despite heinous leaders guilty of far worse than any POTUS we've ever had. Our June visit to Rome was a great reminder of this. 

I respect that some believe that writing in a candidate is a viable choice. I also respect that some believe it isn't. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

42 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Might as well not bother to vote if you do a write in.  ...or even vote aa third party.  ...wasting your vote and IMO but doing your duty.    

As for the bar and how low it's set....that's about all you could get away with these days anyway except if you are a Dem candidate and have to meet one of their litmus tests …..or purity tests as mayor Pete called it.     

As for your biblical knowledge, you seem kind of touchy on the subject of religion.....but good that you have read the bible...and if you want to put your interpretation on it that is OK....but please don't assume that yours is the "gospel".  And maybe go back and read it again with less anger.  ...especially the parts about judging others, casting the first stone, removing the mote from your own eye,.....etc.           

I've seen almost nobody defending DTs lifestyle so not sure what you are getting that....and voting is not the same thing.  

You might give us a look at your ballot from the last election so that we understand which candidates are sin-free and worthy of support. 

It's pretty presumptuous that you think I read the Bible with anger in the first place or think that my interpretation is the only one.  I appreciate religious studies.  I've also studied the Koran and Buddhism.  Had an amazing conversation with an ordained Jewish Rabbi and scholar last year that I found fascinating.  He could literally track his ancestry back to ancient Kings (showed me too) and explained his reasoning for why Jews never bought into the teachings of Jesus. It's important to understand major religions and their teachings in order to better understand our world, as religion plays a major factor in international politics and outcomes.  Our world has been shaped by them.  The reason I don't follow the New Testament is because many of it's stories are simply updated copies of religions going as far back as Ancient Egypt.  Christmas itself was a date chosen from a Pagan holiday.  If you don't believe that, it's cool, but historically it's accurate.  Makes it hard for me to have the faith needed in a holy book that was written by men.

As for sin-free, I'm not saying anyone is.  If you could stop putting words into my mouth, that would be great.  You've completely missed the point I've made and that the author of the OP has made too.

[Grumps 3,693]

3 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

The only legal qualifications for being POTUS are that one is a naturally born U.S. citizen, resident for 14 years, and over 35 years of age.  That's not a high bar we're setting here.

Exactly!

[Grumps 3,693]

2 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

You are always given more than one choice.  That write in box exists for a reason.

So the result would be that Christians don't vote. That's convenient!