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Tampa Tiger

Plays/Playcalls Outback Bowl

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Re-Watched the condensed version of the game, and how many DIFFERENT playcalls did you see?  Besides the Sal Cannella touchdown busted rollout, and the Whitlow wildcat touchdown.   I'm counting about 5.  Inside RPO run and outside screen left or right, and a jetsweep, jetsweep fleaflicker.

Watching the game in person, it definitely seemed like it was super basic, and re-watching it seems the same.  

Am I missing something here?  You'd think the same system we would have more distinct plays.....  I'm no expert, but film guys can't be too hard to scheme against this.  Without the runback on special teams, we lose this one bad.  

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14 minutes ago, Tampa Tiger said:

Re-Watched the condensed version of the game, and how many DIFFERENT playcalls did you see?  Besides the Sal Cannella touchdown busted rollout, and the Whitlow wildcat touchdown.   I'm counting about 5.  Inside RPO run and outside screen left or right, and a jetsweep, jetsweep fleaflicker.

Watching the game in person, it definitely seemed like it was super basic, and re-watching it seems the same.  

Am I missing something here?  You'd think the same system we would have more distinct plays.....  I'm no expert, but film guys can't be too hard to scheme against this.  Without the runback on special teams, we lose this one bad.  

Kinda like the 2 pick 6s in the Iron Bowl...

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19 hours ago, Tampa Tiger said:

Re-Watched the condensed version of the game, and how many DIFFERENT playcalls did you see?  Besides the Sal Cannella touchdown busted rollout, and the Whitlow wildcat touchdown.   I'm counting about 5.  Inside RPO run and outside screen left or right, and a jetsweep, jetsweep fleaflicker.

Watching the game in person, it definitely seemed like it was super basic, and re-watching it seems the same.  

Am I missing something here?  You'd think the same system we would have more distinct plays.....  I'm no expert, but film guys can't be too hard to scheme against this.  Without the runback on special teams, we lose this one bad.  

When running the RPO as much as we seem to do, the QB has to be able to truly read the option. There were several times that Bo was wide open and he gave the ball for a loss. If you tell your QB not to run the ball as much, you just limited your offense. If you're gonna limit your offense, don't run the RPO as much.

I'm not sure I ever saw the buck sweep? 

This is ALL on Gus. He cannot seem to adjust his offense to its strengths any longer. He has tunnel vision and won't listen to anyone else.

Hopefully Chad can get through to him. If not, THIS is who we are.

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On our first series we ran 3 plays. Jet sweep, inside zone, fade.

Second series we ran a hitch to Schwartz twice. The first hitch route was a pass pro play. The second was a RPO with inside zone blocking. Looks the same, because both went to Schwartz, but different plays. The 6th offensive play is again similar, but actually different. It's an RPO with inside zone blocking, but Schwartz is running a bubble screen rather than a quick hitch. I'd like to say that if Nix handed it off to DJ that play would've been a 1st down. He misread the outside backer imo.

When then ran inside zone (this is the first time we actually repeated a play) then ran a pass on 3rd and 5, Nix scrambled though, despite perfect protection.

8 offensive plays, at least 7 different play calls in our first two offensive drives. Idk what OP means by we're only running about 5 plays. Keep in mind, a lot of plays look similar, like the two completed hitches to Schwartz. The result was the same, but one was clearly an RPO, and one was clearly a pass pro. I'm not gonna bother going through the 3rd drive in detail, but we ran a comeback route for a 1st down (yet another new play). We ran a new RPO with buck sweep blocking and an out route (both new).

 

The bottom line. We lost this game because our OL sucks (nothing new there), and our defense got severely out schemed, and at times manhandled. Also, we can't stretch the field. We ran very few deep balls, and threw to almost none of them I think. So Minnesota stacked the box, and our already bad OL is now being out numbered.

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On 1/3/2020 at 8:48 AM, CCTAU said:

When running the RPO as much as we seem to do, the QB has to be able to truly read the option. There were several times that Bo was wide open and he gave the ball for a loss. If you tell your QB not to run the ball as much, you just limited your offense. If you're gonna limit your offense, don't run the RPO as much.

I'm not sure I ever saw the buck sweep? 

This is ALL on Gus. He cannot seem to adjust his offense to its strengths any longer. He has tunnel vision and won't listen to anyone else.

Hopefully Chad can get through to him. If not, THIS is who we are.

Agreed on all points, except for the point about buck sweep. We ran that a few times, but we really suck at it, because our OL sucks at run blocking.

Obviously everything falls on Gus, even Nix's bad reads, which there were plenty of. Nix HAS to improve for next season. And if he doesn't, that's mostly Gus's fault for either not coaching him up, or hiring someone that can coach him up (hopefully Morris lives up to his past in terms of QB coaching). I still don't blame them for running RPO's, even with Nix screwing it up. Nix has to help the offense somehow. If they don't run any RPO's, the defense will catch on and take advantage.

The big things for next season is if Nix improves, and how the OL pans out. Those two things will determine if Gus still has a job a year from now.

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26 minutes ago, copper4eva said:

On our first series we ran 3 plays. Jet sweep, inside zone, fade.

Second series we ran a hitch to Schwartz twice. The first hitch route was a pass pro play. The second was a RPO with inside zone blocking. Looks the same, because both went to Schwartz, but different plays. The 6th offensive play is again similar, but actually different. It's an RPO with inside zone blocking, but Schwartz is running a bubble screen rather than a quick hitch. I'd like to say that if Nix handed it off to DJ that play would've been a 1st down. He misread the outside backer imo.

When then ran inside zone (this is the first time we actually repeated a play) then ran a pass on 3rd and 5, Nix scrambled though, despite perfect protection.

8 offensive plays, at least 7 different play calls in our first two offensive drives. Idk what OP means by we're only running about 5 plays. Keep in mind, a lot of plays look similar, like the two completed hitches to Schwartz. The result was the same, but one was clearly an RPO, and one was clearly a pass pro. I'm not gonna bother going through the 3rd drive in detail, but we ran a comeback route for a 1st down (yet another new play). We ran a new RPO with buck sweep blocking and an out route (both new).

 

The bottom line. We lost this game because our OL sucks (nothing new there), and our defense got severely out schemed, and at times manhandled. Also, we can't stretch the field. We ran very few deep balls, and threw to almost none of them I think. So Minnesota stacked the box, and our already bad OL is now being out numbered.

This is still problematic.  That's been talked about as Gus' MO even back since '13.  The plays are still pretty much the same handful of plays, just with pre-snap eye-candy to TRY and fool the defense....which Gus hasn't actually done consistently since 2014.

I agree with those who feel that giving the QB the option to actually HAVE an option might do wonders for the offensive production.  ....well that and an actual downhill running blocking scheme to help the O-line..

Edited by AUsince72

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1 minute ago, AUsince72 said:

This is still problematic.  That's been talked about as Gus' MO even back since '13.  The plays are still pretty much the same handful of plays, just with pre-snap eye-candy to TRY and fool the defense....which Gus hasn't actually done consistently since 2014.

I agree with those who feel that giving the QB the option to actually HAVE an option might do wonders for the offensive production.  ....well that and an actual downhill running blocking scheme.

I believe our issues have a lot more to do with our OL sucking than play calling. Kind of hard to call plays when the only thing our OL does consistently is get beat one on one.

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8 hours ago, copper4eva said:

I believe our issues have a lot more to do with our OL sucking than play calling. Kind of hard to call plays when the only thing our OL does consistently is get beat one on one.

I don't disagree with you.

An aggressive blocking scheme (coached properly) for Gus' supposed aggressive running attack would do wonders, even with marginal talent.

Plus, for 2 years now, the S&C aspect has come into question.

These are the primary reasons Gus' offense works against lesser talented teams but gets exposed against defenses with any pulse.

Edited by AUsince72
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3 hours ago, copper4eva said:

I believe our issues have a lot more to do with our OL sucking than play calling. Kind of hard to call plays when the only thing our OL does consistently is get beat one on one.

Online and qb play are difference in 2014 and now. Nick Marshall could consistently hit the deep ball and was a better runner than Nix. We actually ran some true zone read then. That and online was waaaaay better at run blocking. Gus's offense is NOT good without at least an adequate run game. Yet the 'offensive genius' made his worst hires at the coaching position he probably needs the most for his offense to work. It's not rocket science folks. 

Edited by twilli13
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“The bottom line. We lost this game because our OL sucks (nothing new there), and our defense got severely out schemed, and at times manhandled. Also, we can't stretch the field. We ran very few deep balls, and threw toalmost none of them I think. So Minnesota stacked the box, and our already bad OL is now being out numbered.”

 

This 😡. I agree with all of the offensive inefficiencies and dysfunction being discussed. What gripes me is that our defense couldn’t stop UM and they were using a makeshift OC out of position coaches and QC staff because their OC bolted to.PSU. These makeshift guys out-schemed our DC and all of his assistant coaches. It was like watching a d&#$ rerun of the 2018 Miss State and UT games. It was a nauseating afternoon for AU fans. 3 games in 2 seasons (MSU, UT, and UM) to get out coached by lesser-talented teams is unacceptable for anyone that loves AU.  

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2 hours ago, Gr82batigr said:

“The bottom line. We lost this game because our OL sucks (nothing new there), and our defense got severely out schemed, and at times manhandled. Also, we can't stretch the field. We ran very few deep balls, and threw toalmost none of them I think. So Minnesota stacked the box, and our already bad OL is now being out numbered.”

 

This 😡. I agree with all of the offensive inefficiencies and dysfunction being discussed. What gripes me is that our defense couldn’t stop UM and they were using a makeshift OC out of position coaches and QC staff because their OC bolted to.PSU. These makeshift guys out-schemed our DC and all of his assistant coaches. It was like watching a d&#$ rerun of the 2018 Miss State and UT games. It was a nauseating afternoon for AU fans. 3 games in 2 seasons (MSU, UT, and UM) to get out coached by lesser-talented teams is unacceptable for anyone that loves AU.  

Not gonna lie, was way more disappointed in the defense than the offense. The offensive struggles were nothing new. But the defense got manhandled. That goal line stand, where they had to do a play action to score on 4th and goal after getting stuffed over and over. Where was that physicality the rest of that game? They ran the ball all over us. And even so, they still scored thanks to us not being disciplined on the play action, that was obviously coming too.

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10 hours ago, copper4eva said:

I believe our issues have a lot more to do with our OL sucking than play calling. Kind of hard to call plays when the only thing our OL does consistently is get beat one on one.

The question there is are the oline issues are the result of a lack of talent or a lack of coaching/development? Is JB capable of turning our next crop of olinemen into an SEC caliber squad or are we lacking in the ‘raw materials’ with which to build an SEC caliber squad?  Or are the OL problems due to S&C, as @AUsince72 mentioned?

Edited by triangletiger

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2 minutes ago, triangletiger said:

The question there is are the oline issues are the result of a lack of talent or a lack of coaching/development? Is JB capable of turning our next crop of olinemen into an SEC caliber squad or are we lacking in the ‘raw materials’ with which to build an SEC caliber squad?

It's both, but mostly talent.  Maybe one or two guys on our OL should have been playing in the SEC.

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1 minute ago, dyehardfanAU said:

It's both, but mostly talent.  Maybe one or two guys on our OL should have been playing in the SEC.

Then my question is do we have more talented guys waiting in the wings?  If so, then why weren’t they playing?  If not, that doesn’t bode well for the future.

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13 hours ago, triangletiger said:

The question there is are the oline issues are the result of a lack of talent or a lack of coaching/development? Is JB capable of turning our next crop of olinemen into an SEC caliber squad or are we lacking in the ‘raw materials’ with which to build an SEC caliber squad?  Or are the OL problems due to S&C, as @AUsince72 mentioned?

I believe in the case of the 2018 and 2019 OL, they were under talented. Keep in mind, I am not basing that off of stars, couldn't give a crap if they were two stars or 4 stars. They just got beat one on one all the time, and no push on double teams. They didn't look like they physically belonged in the SEC. From a schematic, and coaching perspective, they always fitted up on their blocks correctly, and read blitzes well, etc. I don't recall many blitzes going unchallenged. The problem was the challenge part, they would get themselves in the right position, then get manhandled.

I don't think any amount of coaching would've made this OL good at run blocking. They just weren't strong enough. I will say, they were actually pretty decent at pass blocking. I know Nix scrambled a lot, but go back and watch carefully, he mostly scrambles out of clean pockets. He needs to become more patient.

13 hours ago, triangletiger said:

Then my question is do we have more talented guys waiting in the wings?  If so, then why weren’t they playing?  If not, that doesn’t bode well for the future.

There is no telling if the future OL will be good enough from a talent perspective. OL is one of the hardest position groups to analyze coming out of high school, probably only behind QB. I mean, you get future NFL pro bowlers that were like 2 stars. And then 5 stars who turn out to totally suck (Calvin Ashley... cough cough).

I still believe Grimes is a good coach, but a terrible recruiter. If he's given the right players, he can make as an elite OL, just like he did in Malzahn's early years. If these up and coming players turn out to actually be decent, or even great, than I'm optimistic about our future OL. But, again, there's no telling. They could all be recruiting busts.

 

One last thing. I think people really underestimate how bad Herb Hand was. Like, he was really god awful for this OL. Go back and look who he recruited for us. They were highly ranked, but boy were they overrated. Almost none of his recruits have significantly contributed for us. And he was a terrible coach. If Gus gets canned, I would say the Herb Hand hire is what eventually did he. That, and not recovering from the Herb Hand hire with better coaches than JB Grimes.

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1 hour ago, copper4eva said:

I believe in the case of the 2018 and 2019 OL, they were under talented. Keep in mind, I am not basing that off of stars, couldn't give a crap if they were two stars or 4 stars. They just got beat one on one all the time, and no push on double teams. They didn't look like they physically belonged in the SEC. From a schematic, and coaching perspective, they always fitted up on their blocks correctly, and read blitzes well, etc. I don't recall many blitzes going unchallenged. The problem was the challenge part, they would get themselves in the right position, then get manhandled.

I don't think any amount of coaching would've made this OL good at run blocking. They just weren't strong enough. I will say, they were actually pretty decent at pass blocking. I know Nix scrambled a lot, but go back and watch carefully, he mostly scrambles out of clean pockets. He needs to become more patient.

There is no telling if the future OL will be good enough from a talent perspective. OL is one of the hardest position groups to analyze coming out of high school, probably only behind QB. I mean, you get future NFL pro bowlers that were like 2 stars. And then 5 stars who turn out to totally suck (Calvin Ashley... cough cough).

I still believe Grimes is a good coach, but a terrible recruiter. If he's given the right players, he can make as an elite OL, just like he did in Malzahn's early years. If these up and coming players turn out to actually be decent, or even great, than I'm optimistic about our future OL. But, again, there's no telling. They could all be recruiting busts.

 

One last thing. I think people really underestimate how bad Herb Hand was. Like, he was really god awful for this OL. Go back and look who he recruited for us. They were highly ranked, but boy were they overrated. Almost none of his recruits have significantly contributed for us. And he was a terrible coach. If Gus gets canned, I would say the Herb Hand hire is what eventually did he. That, and not recovering from the Herb Hand hire with better coaches than JB Grimes.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I hope you're right regarding Grimes as being a good OL coach.  I think we have found some ways to compensate for his recruiting inadequacies (i.e., let others on the staff that are good recruiters support JB by carrying the load for recruiting OL prospects). 

I still have a nagging question, though, about why our 2019 OL were not strong enough.  Was it due to inadequate strength and conditioning while at Auburn, or are they just inherently incapable of reaching the level of strength required to run block against SEC-caliber d-lines?  (I realize you probably aren't in a position to be able to answer this.) 

Edited by triangletiger

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4 minutes ago, triangletiger said:

Thanks for your thoughts.  I hope you're right regarding Grimes as being a good OL coach.  I think we have found some ways to compensate for his recruiting inadequacies (i.e., let others on the staff that are good recruiters support JB by carrying the load for recruiting OL prospects). 

I still have a nagging question, though, about why our 2019 OL were not strong enough.  Was it due to inadequate strength and conditioning while at Auburn, or are they just inherently incapable of reaching the level of strength required to run block against SEC-caliber d-lines?  (I realize you probably aren't in a position to be able to answer this.) 

I'm not in a position to know that. You'd literally have to be on the team or staff. It is concerning, not gonna lie.

I used to have a lot more faith in Grimes as a coach than I do know. I think we could've made a better hire than him. But we also could've done a lot worse. Herb Hand was simply terrible. It takes an elite coach and recruiter to turn around this s*** show he left Auburn in. Kind of like how Muschamp turned around the mess Ellis Johnson left us in.

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19 hours ago, copper4eva said:

I'm not in a position to know that. You'd literally have to be on the team or staff. It is concerning, not gonna lie.

I used to have a lot more faith in Grimes as a coach than I do know. I think we could've made a better hire than him. But we also could've done a lot worse. Herb Hand was simply terrible. It takes an elite coach and recruiter to turn around this s*** show he left Auburn in. Kind of like how Muschamp turned around the mess Ellis Johnson left us in.

Keep in mind that this senior class was mostly Grimes guys. Kim, Harrell, and Horton. 

Our biggest problem with regards to the offensive line is still here and running the whole show.

 

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2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Keep in mind that this senior class was mostly Grimes guys. Kim, Harrell, and Horton. 

Our biggest problem with regards to the offensive line is still here and running the whole show.

 

Ya I know, but he isn't the one who developed them. That falls in Herb Hand's lap.

The 2019 OL did improve over the 2018 unit, believe it or not. If you don't believe me then you don't remember just how terrible that unit was. It was seriously 2012 level bad. Heck, can't say I've watched 2012 film in forever (for obvious reasons) but it wouldn't surprise me if that OL was actually better lol.

Players regressed under Herb Hand somehow. Like, the 17 unit was worse than the 16 units imo, despite being a lot of the same players.

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30 minutes ago, copper4eva said:

Ya I know, but he isn't the one who developed them. That falls in Herb Hand's lap.

The 2019 OL did improve over the 2018 unit, believe it or not. If you don't believe me then you don't remember just how terrible that unit was. It was seriously 2012 level bad. Heck, can't say I've watched 2012 film in forever (for obvious reasons) but it wouldn't surprise me if that OL was actually better lol.

Players regressed under Herb Hand somehow. Like, the 17 unit was worse than the 16 units imo, despite being a lot of the same players.

He had them all last year. And Horton was probably better in 2017 than he was this year and definitely better than last year. And he had to replace Kim. But yeah, they got a little better at pass blocking this year. 

I'm not arguing against JB being a decent position coach. But Herb Hand isn't the bogeyman you're making him out to be. Gus is the constant here. 

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9 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Keep in mind that this senior class was mostly Grimes guys. Kim, Harrell, and Horton. 

Our biggest problem with regards to the offensive line is still here and running the whole show.

 

I don't understand why so many think it's all Herb's fault.  Wasn't he the coach who landed Tega and Brahms?  They were the two best OL we had out there this season.

Sure, Herb needed to have done more to backfill but the weakest parts of the starting OL, as you said, were Grimes recruits.

Edited by dyehardfanAU
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6 hours ago, McLoofus said:

He had them all last year. And Horton was probably better in 2017 than he was this year and definitely better than last year. And he had to replace Kim. But yeah, they got a little better at pass blocking this year. 

I'm not arguing against JB being a decent position coach. But Herb Hand isn't the bogeyman you're making him out to be. Gus is the constant here. 

Didn't Herb run a different blocking scheme than JB? Seems like he taught them a different technique and I remember there being articles in the early season struggles about it. Maybe I am wrong here. Seems like Hand was trying to teach them a Zone scheme when we had run a gap scheme or vice versa? Someone should be able to help me out here?

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2 minutes ago, Tigerpro2a said:

Didn't Herb run a different blocking scheme than JB? Seems like he taught them a different technique and I remember there being articles in the early season struggles about it. Maybe I am wrong here. Seems like Hand was trying to teach them a Zone scheme when we had run a gap scheme or vice versa? Someone should be able to help me out here?

That doesn't make much sense to me.  Wouldn't he be coaching them however Gus told him to coach them?  It doesn't seem like an OL coach would be able to dictate something as important as that.

Edited by dyehardfanAU
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1 minute ago, dyehardfanAU said:

That doesn't make much sense to me.  Wouldn't he be coaching them however Gus told him to coach them?  It doesn't seem like an OL coach would be able to dictate something as important as that.

I may be wrong...but I swear I remember reading this. Maybe it was on here hell IDK too many bottles of Sweet Lucy ago. I would agree with your argument...but I still remember something about this. Maybe it wasn't even a different scheme so much a technical differences. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tigerpro2a said:

I may be wrong...but I swear I remember reading this. Maybe it was on here hell IDK too many bottles of Sweet Lucy ago. I would agree with your argument...but I still remember something about this. Maybe it wasn't even a different scheme so much a technical differences. 

 

I don't know anything definitive, it just doesn't make sense to me that we'd change blocking schemes without it being Gus' decision to move that direction.

I could see it being CYA disinformation though, similar to when Rhett was being blamed for offensive woes.

Edited by dyehardfanAU

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