Ukranian airline goes down in Iran

[AU64 10,122]

Terrible crash with 170 plus killed including a large number of Canadians. 

JMO but some thing is off about that crash.  Virtually no details from anyone about it yet,  Iran has the black box and what I saw indicates they will keep it,  Plane was leaving at the same time of the rocket attacks from Iran against Iraq which was DUMB.    Early on described as engine failure but the early model 737s can fly on one engine I'm told. 

What are the chances of an accidental shootdown?  

 

PS Later.....saw some speculation in the British press a few minutes ago with pix that seem to indicate an accidental shootdown....☹️   I Can see see that the rockets being fired and the general rhetoric could cause some young AA crews to be antsy. 

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

The timing of the accident is very suspicious. If it was a mechanical issue with an engine, the aircraft is easily handled by the crew.  The Iranian’s, by not allowing the black boxes out of their sight, makes it look very questionable.

Of course, if a missile goes through one of the engines and rips off the wing, I guess it could be designed as a mechanical failure. 

US Airlines were prohibited from flying in Iranian airspace after the drone went down earlier in the year;

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-iran-airlines/airlines-avoid-parts-of-iran-controlled-airspace-after-u-s-regulators-order-idUSKCN1TM02P

No US Airline flys into Tehran or Iran,

https://www.skyscanner.com/flights-to/ir/airlines-that-fly-to-iran.html

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

From Newsweek:

Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752, a Boeing 737–800 en route from Tehran Imam Khomeini International Airpot to Kyiv's Boryspil International Airport, stopped transmitting data Tuesday just minutes after takeoff and not long after Iran launched missiles at military bases housing U.S. and allied forces in neighboring Iraq. The aircraft is believed to have been struck by a Russia-built Tor-M1 surface-to-air missile system, known to NATO as Gauntlet, the three officials, who were not authorized to speak publicly on the matter, told Newsweek.

The Civil Aviation Organization of Iran Chief has also invited Canada and Sweden to cooperate in the accident investigation, however, Chief Executive Ali Abedzadeh has stressed that he would not hand over the aircraft's black box⁠—which may provide details of the doomed flight's final moments⁠—to the United States.

https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313

Not looking good for Iran.  I can see how the US media might spin this, but since this is the serious side of the forum, I will refrain.

[alexava 6,973]

I don’t think you “accidentally “ shoot down a plane. What happened and why ...we might not ever know. Refusing to cooperate in any investigation is telling. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,128]

I think they were expecting US to attack after their missile attack on bases where US soldiers were stationed.  We didn't but they got trigger happy.  

[AU64 10,122]

16 hours ago, alexava said:

I don’t think you “accidentally “ shoot down a plane. What happened and why ...we might not ever know. Refusing to cooperate in any investigation is telling. 

Read about the Russian AA missile batteries they purchased a while back and seems that some of them auto-lock onto a prospective target that does not identify itself properly.  Could have happened without human intervention.   A really unfortunate tragedy no matter how it happened....and Iran not helping by apparently trying to cover up vital evidence.  

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

On NBC News they just reported that Iran will reveal the cause of the accident tomorrow. This should be entertaining.  

[AU64 10,122]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

On NBC News they just reported that Iran will reveal the cause of the accident tomorrow. This should be entertaining.  

And they will also reveal the actual number of Americans killed by their rocket attack....either 80 or 50...or maybe none.   I think Baghdad Bob from the old days is now in charge of disinformation for the Iranian government.  

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

I not changed my thinking since hearing early that morning. Odd

[AU64 10,122]

14 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

On NBC News they just reported that Iran will reveal the cause of the accident tomorrow. This should be entertaining.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-crash/iran-says-its-military-shot-down-ukrainian-plane-in-disastrous-mistake-idUSKCN1ZA04Y

I give them some credit for finally admitting the obvious.  Accidents can happen and that was certainly a bad one. 

Lots of complaints from Iranians about how it has been handled and total lack of compassion or sympathy for the victims.   More interested in making political hay over their terrorist leader than recognizing the grief of the victim's families....still trying to blame the US over it.  

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

I saw that.  Thanks for posting 64. Another view from the NYT:

After maintaining for days that there was no evidence that one of its missiles had struck a Boeing 737-800 minutes after it took off from Tehran on Wednesday with 176 people on board, Iran admitted early on Saturday that its military had shot down the passenger jet by mistake.

The military blamed human error. In a statement, it said Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 had taken a sharp, unexpected turn that brought it near a sensitive military base.

In post on Twitter, Iran’s foreign minister, Mohamad Javad Zarif, apologized but appeared to also blame American “adventurism” for the tragedy, writing: “Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/world/middleeast/plane-crash.html

[TexasTiger 12,812]

15 hours ago, AU64 said:

And they will also reveal the actual number of Americans killed by their rocket attack....either 80 or 50...or maybe none.   I think Baghdad Bob from the old days is now in charge of disinformation for the Iranian government.  

She’s planning on running for governor of Arkansas.

[alexava 6,973]

That’s not an accidental shoot down. That was an intentional shoot down. It is just being explained as a misidentified target. I don’t believe that either. I think they wanted to blame the US. 

[AU64 10,122]

10 minutes ago, alexava said:

That’s not an accidental shoot down. That was an intentional shoot down. It is just being explained as a misidentified target. I don’t believe that either. I think they wanted to blame the US. 

Yep....there are enough flight plan charts to show the plane stayed on it's planned course...and by the way, was only airborne for a couple minutes.  Ukrainians are being very cautious about this but I  don't think they will let Iran get away with blaming their pilots for this incident.   Gonna be a big exchange of $$$ before this is over. 

PS...a few folks in this country are having difficulty not blaming the US directly.  Saw one "source' try to pass it off as a Boeing 737 problem...

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

43 minutes ago, alexava said:

That’s not an accidental shoot down. That was an intentional shoot down. It is just being explained as a misidentified target. I don’t believe that either. I think they wanted to blame the US. 

I see that there are a few political views that are willing to carry Iran’s water.

Tom Elliott

 

@tomselliott

 

.

@RepSpeier

blames Trump for Iran shooting down a passenger jet: “This is yet another example of collateral damage from the actions that have been taken in a provocative way by the president of the United States."

 

And

Pete Buttigieg

 

@PeteButtigieg

 

Innocent civilians are now dead because they were caught in the middle of an unnecessary and unwanted military tit for tat. My thoughts are with the families and loved ones of all 176 souls lost aboard this flight.

Sometimes I think I’m watching a Rambo movie.

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

I see that there are a few political views that are willing to carry Iran’s water.

Tom Elliott

 

@tomselliott

 

.

@RepSpeier

blames Trump for Iran shooting down a passenger jet: “This is yet another example of collateral damage from the actions that have been taken in a provocative way by the president of the United States."

 

And

Pete Buttigieg

 

@PeteButtigieg

 

Innocent civilians are now dead because they were caught in the middle of an unnecessary and unwanted military tit for tat. My thoughts are with the families and loved ones of all 176 souls lost aboard this flight.

Sometimes I think I’m watching a Rambo movie.

I’m not saying they are wrong. I just don’t think Iran did this On accident   

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

4 minutes ago, alexava said:

I’m not saying they are wrong. I just don’t think Iran did this On accident   

Representative Speier and Mayor Buttigieg are very intelligent people.  “There are some ideas that are so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe them”. George Orwell

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

12 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Representative Speier and Mayor Buttigieg are very intelligent people.  “There are some ideas that are so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe them”. George Orwell

Ask yourself this basic question:

Is Iran shooting off a missile at all if we don't kill their guy?

Planes have been flying safely over Iranian air space for years.  It's not wrong to believe (and rightly IMO) that this is a symptom of our attack on their leadership.  Mayor Pete's "tit for tat" comment is pretty spot on.  It may very well have been accidental, but Iran is not a country that shoots off missiles for the fun of it.

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

37 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Ask yourself this basic question:

Is Iran shooting off a missile at all if we don't kill their guy?

Planes have been flying safely over Iranian air space for years.  It's not wrong to believe (and rightly IMO) that this is a symptom of our attack on their leadership.  Mayor Pete's "tit for tat" comment is pretty spot on.  It may very well have been accidental, but Iran is not a country that shoots off missiles for the fun of it.

Let’s say you run a meth house and you have information that the police are going to raid you.  A colleague of yours mistakenly walks in at the same time you expected the police and you shoot him.  Is it the police’s fault?

A reasonable country that cared for it’s citizens would have shut down the airspace over their territory so that they knew any aircraft that entered were up to no good.  They would not have allow civilian aircraft to takeoff from their airport, just for this very reason.  The whole thing only lasted 30 mins or so.  Why clear a civilian aircraft for takeoff?  Delay the takeoff, they have that authority. This was totally Iran’s fault.  They didn’t have to retaliate, but they chose to do so and took no precautions.

I don’t see the logic in Mayor Pete’s tweet except he is running against the man that is putting America 1st. 

[AU64 10,122]

26 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Let’s say you run a meth house and you have information that the police are going to raid you.  A colleague of yours mistakenly walks in at the same time you expected the police and you shoot him.  Is it the police’s fault?

A reasonable country that cared for it’s citizens would have shut down the airspace over their territory so that they knew any aircraft that entered were up to no good.  They would not have allow civilian aircraft to takeoff from their airport, just for this very reason.  The whole thing only lasted 30 mins or so.  Why clear a civilian aircraft for takeoff?  Delay the takeoff, they have that authority. This was totally Iran’s fault.  They didn’t have to retaliate, but they chose to do so and took no precautions.

I don’t see the logic in Mayor Pete’s tweet except he is running against the man that is putting America 1st. 

And lets consider that if this guy was not flying around the middle east for years,   meeting with terrorist groups, providing weapons being used to kill Americans (plus hundreds to thousands of other innocents) , supporting various terror groups with money and ideas would we have had an interest in him?    NOPE...the other night he could have been home in bed with his wife instead of sneaking into Baghdad at midnight to meet with Iranian supporters in a foreign country.    And of course doing this with the blessing of the leaders of Iran....the same "leaders" who enabled  someone in it's defense forces to shoot down a passenger liner as it departed from an Iranian airport.

I mean if the US had not embargoed oil against Japan in 1940 they would not have attacked Pearl Harbor....definitely FDR's fault. 

Love that the dems are trying to hang this on the US...hope they keep that up as the campaign continues. 

[TexasTiger 12,812]

21 minutes ago, AU64 said:

And lets consider that if this guy was not flying around the middle east for years,   meeting with terrorist groups, providing weapons being used to kill Americans (plus hundreds to thousands of other innocents) , supporting various terror groups with money and ideas would we have had an interest in him?    NOPE...the other night he could have been home in bed with his wife instead of sneaking into Baghdad at midnight to meet with Iranian supporters in a foreign country.    And of course doing this with the blessing of the leaders of Iran....the same "leaders" who enabled  someone in it's defense forces to shoot down a passenger liner as it departed from an Iranian airport.

I mean if the US had not embargoed oil against Japan in 1940 they would not have attacked Pearl Harbor....definitely FDR's fault. 

Love that the dems are trying to hang this on the US...hope they keep that up as the campaign continues. 

Iran is totally responsible for these people’s deaths. No doubt. But if you lost a family member on that plane, you’re gonna think that if not for that drone attack by the US, your family member would still be alive. Doesn’t mean the Iranian general didn’t deserve it, it’s just human nature to be upset over something that wasn’t essential, even if justified.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

They didn’t have to retaliate, 

This right here is where you lose me.  We killed their top military official.  Let's assume for a second a country does the same to us and takes out the Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  Think we aren't retaliating?

[I_M4_AU 7,773]

16 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

This right here is where you lose me.  We killed their top military official.  Let's assume for a second a country does the same to us and takes out the Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  Think we aren't retaliating?

Like any country they had to safe face.  I knew, as everyone else did, they would retaliate. They could have served revenge, as it is best served, cold.  In other words wait and let us sweat until they are ready.  It was a show, it just didn’t end up like they had thought.

 

[alexava 6,973]

It don’t have to be an absolute fault of a Single person or state. Iran was wrong in every thing they did and do. How we respond to these wrongs can cause more chaos than is necessary. The United States could justify hammering most Middle East countries like this military guy. Because you can justify it don’t always mean it was the right call. Most people don’t trust this administration. You are probably an idiot if you do. I don’t. But I don’t automatically think trump is wrong on everything he does either. I think trump had some motivation to please other republican war hawks. I’m suspicious that’s why he acted. 

[Grumps 3,693]

5 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Ask yourself this basic question:

Is Iran shooting off a missile at all if we don't kill their guy?

Planes have been flying safely over Iranian air space for years.  It's not wrong to believe (and rightly IMO) that this is a symptom of our attack on their leadership.  Mayor Pete's "tit for tat"  is pretty spot on.  It may very well have been accidental, but Iran is not a country that shoots off missiles for the fun of it.

You are seriously implying that the Trump administration bears some responsibility for Iran shooting down the jet? Seriously? Let's see, Trump would not have been elected POTUS if Ms. Clinton had not been elected as the democrat candidate for POTUS. Is it fair to blame the downing of the jet on her and the dems?