Ukranian airline goes down in Iran

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, Grumps said:

You are seriously implying that the Trump administration bears some responsibility for Iran shooting down the jet? Seriously? Let's see, Trump would not have been elected POTUS if Ms. Clinton had not been elected as the democrat candidate for POTUS. Is it fair to blame the downing of the jet on her and the dems?

I'm not implying.  I'm flat out saying it.  Escalations happened because of us.  Iran screwed up and shot down the plane.  They are rightfully taking heat from the world and within their own country for those actions.  However I don't believe they shoot off any missiles without their military leader being killed by us.  It's a symptom, not the cause.  There are too many years of evidence showing passenger planes peacefully flying over Iranian airspace to ignore.

Sometimes things live in a gray area.  This is one of those events.  I don't believe there is only one entity to blame.  We killed Iran's military leader on what many in Congress, including some on right, believe is shaky evidence.  Iran retaliated with strikes on our base by (wisely) intentionally missing human targets.  However, I also believe the initial action by us put Iran on heightened alert.  Add that to the fact that they are using older technology with Russian weapons and boom, crap like this happens.

[Grumps 3,704]

1 minute ago, Brad_ATX said:

I'm not implying.  I'm flat out saying it.  Escalations happened because of us.  Iran screwed up and shot down the plane.  They are rightfully taking heat from the world and within their own country for those actions.  However I don't believe they shoot off any missiles without their military leader being killed by us.  It's a symptom, not the cause.  There are too many years of evidence showing passenger planes peacefully flying over Iranian airspace to ignore.

Sometimes things live in a gray area.  This is one of those events.  I don't believe there is only one entity to blame.  We killed Iran's military leader on what many in Congress, including some on right, believe is shaky evidence.  Iran retaliated with strikes on our base by (wisely) intentionally missing human targets.  However, I also believe the initial action by us put Iran on heightened alert.  Add that to the fact that they are using older technology with Russian weapons and boom, crap like this happens.

Fair enough, it's Hillary's fault.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Just now, Grumps said:

Fair enough, it's Hillary's fault.

Your ability to discuss this in a rational and thoughtful manner is truly humbling.

[Grumps 3,704]

Just now, Brad_ATX said:

Your ability to discuss this in a rational and thoughtful manner is truly humbling.

And yet you think you are being rational in blaming Trump. You are a great poster in this forum, but if you want to blame Iran shooting down a commercial jet on Trump then I don't think that we can have a thoughtful discussion here. Maybe next time!

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

9 minutes ago, Grumps said:

And yet you think you are being rational in blaming Trump. You are a great poster in this forum, but if you want to blame Iran shooting down a commercial jet on Trump then I don't think that we can have a thoughtful discussion here. Maybe next time!

I'm bringing a perspective based on a cause and effect relationship.  If you disagree, fine.  But your replies thus far have been juvenile, which is beneath you.

[bigbird 60,441]

10 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

I'm not implying.  I'm flat out saying it.  Escalations happened because of us.  Iran screwed up and shot down the plane.  They are rightfully taking heat from the world and within their own country for those actions.  However I don't believe they shoot off any missiles without their military leader being killed by us.  It's a symptom, not the cause.  There are too many years of evidence showing passenger planes peacefully flying over Iranian airspace to ignore.

Sometimes things live in a gray area.  This is one of those events.  I don't believe there is only one entity to blame.  We killed Iran's military leader on what many in Congress, including some on right, believe is shaky evidence.  Iran retaliated with strikes on our base by (wisely) intentionally missing human targets.  However, I also believe the initial action by us put Iran on heightened alert.  Add that to the fact that they are using older technology with Russian weapons and boom, crap like this happens.

I don't disagree with your rational, but you could take it even further. If Solemani hadn't created and directed a shadow war against the US and Israel, then Trump wouldn't have targeted him. It could be chased down the rabbit hole even further if desired. It just depends where one wants to stop and who they prefer to blame.

 

[AU64 10,122]

I disagree with much of the rationale being proposed. ....include the assumption that they did not kill an US troops because there were not trying to do so..  Folks seem to be giving the Iranian leaders much more credit for good sense than they deserve...especially if you read the many news releases coming from their government spokesmen during the week.   

[bigbird 60,441]

8 minutes ago, AU64 said:

I disagree with much of the rationale being proposed. ....include the assumption that they did not kill an US troops because there were not trying to do so..  Folks seem to be giving the Iranian leaders much more credit for good sense than they deserve...especially if you read the many news releases coming from their government spokesmen during the week.   

They targeted three bases with the least number of troops and hit non personnel targets. To me, it looks like they retaliated to save face without trying to escalate matters.

[metafour 4,966]

[TexasTiger 12,827]

44 minutes ago, AU64 said:

I disagree with much of the rationale being proposed. ....include the assumption that they did not kill an US troops because there were not trying to do so..  Folks seem to be giving the Iranian leaders much more credit for good sense than they deserve...especially if you read the many news releases coming from their government spokesmen during the week.   

They have one posture for internal communications and another for external. Both countries communicated a de-escalation approach thru Swiss back channels. Still, I expect there will be more retaliation that is harder to confirm culpability.

[I_M4_AU 7,783]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

They have one posture for internal communications and another for external. Both countries communicated a de-escalation approach thru Swiss back channels. Still, I expect there will be more retaliation that is harder to confirm culpability.

This is what they do, however, this administration (Intelligence Agency) seems to be able to trace these type of proxy war activities with more certainty. If Iran underestimates this administration again, there may be a bigger stick waiting.

Appeasing their activities has not seemed to work.

ETA: The wild card is the elections this year.  Will Iran try to escalate and try to influence the election?

[TexasTiger 12,827]

7 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is what they do, however, this administration (Intelligence Agency) seems to be able to trace these type of proxy war activities with more certainty. If Iran underestimates this administration again, there may be a bigger stick waiting.

Appeasing their activities has not seemed to work.

ETA: The wild card is the elections this year.  Will Iran try to escalate and try to influence the election?

Who knows what the impact might be? It’s hard to predict.

[homersapien 11,357]

14 hours ago, Grumps said:

And yet you think you are being rational in blaming Trump. You are a great poster in this forum, but if you want to blame Iran shooting down a commercial jet on Trump then I don't think that we can have a thoughtful discussion here. Maybe next time!

I don't think there's any rational doubt that the shooting down of this airliner is directly linked to the (possibly illegal) decision by Trump to assassinate Soleimani.  

Presumably, one's reaction to the characterization of that fact as "blaming Trump" depends entirely on your affection for Trump and trust in his decision-making process. (And possibly by knowing someone on that flight.)

And let's not forget we have done the same thing under similar circumstances:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/10/middleeast/iran-air-flight-655-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

In 1988, a US Navy warship shot down an Iranian passenger plane in the heat of battle

 

 

[Grumps 3,704]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

I don't think there's any rational doubt that the shooting down of this airliner is directly linked to the (possibly illegal) decision by Trump to assassinate Soleimani.  

Presumably, one's reaction to the characterization of that fact as "blaming Trump" depends entirely on your affection for Trump and trust in his decision-making process.

And let's not forget we have done the same thing under similar circumstances:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/10/middleeast/iran-air-flight-655-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

In 1988, a US Navy warship shot down an Iranian passenger plane in the heat of battle

 

 

Y'all can blame Trump for anything you want. I don't care. I just happen to think that since there are PLENTY of legitimate reasons to bash him, making silly cause and effect arguments that he caused the shooting down of the jet is ludicrous. Iran says they shot down the airliner due to their own human error, but you guys think it is Trump's fault.

I still think that the most disgusting thing that Trump has done since he became a politician was making fun of Rick Perry's wife's mental illness. What do you think is his most disgusting action?

[TexasTiger 12,827]

16 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Y'all can blame Trump for anything you want. I don't care. I just happen to think that since there are PLENTY of legitimate reasons to bash him, making silly cause and effect arguments that he caused the shooting down of the jet is ludicrous. Iran says they shot down the airliner due to their own human error, but you guys think it is Trump's fault.

I still think that the most disgusting thing that Trump has done since he became a politician was making fun of Rick Perry's wife's mental illness. What do you think is his most disgusting action?

Oh, where to start?

[homersapien 11,357]

21 hours ago, Grumps said:

Y'all can blame Trump for anything you want. I don't care. I just happen to think that since there are PLENTY of legitimate reasons to bash him, making silly cause and effect arguments that he caused the shooting down of the jet is ludicrous. Iran says they shot down the airliner due to their own human error, but you guys think it is Trump's fault.

I still think that the most disgusting thing that Trump has done since he became a politician was making fun of Rick Perry's wife's mental illness. What do you think is his most disgusting action?

First, I didn't say I "blamed" Trump for shooting down an airliner. 

I am just pointing out the facts.  There is an undeniable cause/effect linkage.  But war decisions often result in unintended consequences. 

Accordingly, I do blame Trump for not making well-reasoned decisions.  Such reasoned analysis is simply against his basic nature.

So your emphasis on a straw man argument of assigning direct and deliberate blame to Trump for shooting down the airliner - is a weak, diversionary excuse to ignore the fact of the linkage.

Finally, I certainly agree there are plenty of other reasons to "bash" Trump,  too many to single one out.  (But the ridiculing of a handicapped reporter still stands out as an earlier indicator of his psychopathy.  And the narcissism is exhibited on a virtually daily basis.)

 

[AU64 10,122]

5 hours ago, bigbird said:

They targeted three bases with the least number of troops and hit non personnel targets. To me, it looks like they retaliated to save face without trying to escalate matters.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/08/iran-fully-planned-kill-us-troops-missile-attacks-top-general-says.html

[alexava 6,973]

7 hours ago, AU64 said:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/08/iran-fully-planned-kill-us-troops-missile-attacks-top-general-says.html

Now I would hesitate to take this general at his word. 22 shots at three bases and not a damn one hit. But took out a airliner with one shot. I think everything they did was intentional. It was escalated by our assasination. I don’t have enough knowledge to blame trump. Although I do despise him and doubt I will fully support anything he does. He made that bed. 

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

On 1/11/2020 at 10:08 PM, Brad_ATX said:

I'm not implying.  I'm flat out saying it.  Escalations happened because of us.  Iran screwed up and shot down the plane.  They are rightfully taking heat from the world and within their own country for those actions.  However I don't believe they shoot off any missiles without their military leader being killed by us.  It's a symptom, not the cause.  There are too many years of evidence showing passenger planes peacefully flying over Iranian airspace to ignore.

Sometimes things live in a gray area.  This is one of those events.  I don't believe there is only one entity to blame.  We killed Iran's military leader on what many in Congress, including some on right, believe is shaky evidence.  Iran retaliated with strikes on our base by (wisely) intentionally missing human targets.  However, I also believe the initial action by us put Iran on heightened alert.  Add that to the fact that they are using older technology with Russian weapons and boom, crap like this happens.

Has this been proven?

People need to wait for things to be assessed before just running with initial media reactions and coverage. MSNBC flat out spread Iranian state TV propaganda saying 30-50 U.S. troops had been killed, while covering the missile attack. It's amazing how our media doesn't show the same skepticism towards Iran's state run media that they do towards other countries like North Korea or Russia.

Iran missed because U.S. troops were able to take cover just minutes before the missiles hit, not because they were intentionally trying to miss. 

Quote

By HOLLY WILLIAMS CBS NEWS January 13, 2020, 6:04 PM

U.S. troops describe Iranian missile strike: "We huddled together and held one another"

When Iran launched a missile strike on the Al Asad Air Base in Iraq last week, U.S. troops hunkered down. The attack was in retaliation for the drone strike that killed Iran's top general, Qassem Soleimani. 

Now, CBS News is getting a look at the aftermath. There are around 1,500 U.S. coalition troops on the Al Asad Air Base and they had just minutes to take cover. The shock waves rolled through the base's blast walls.

Sergeant Daine Kvasager told CBS News he was flying a drone that night, with orders to stay at his place and not take cover. He said he owes his life to the blast walls, known as T-walls.

"I'm very grateful for this piece of concrete and wrought iron steel," Kvasager said.

One of the missiles was a direct hit on Chief Warrant Officer Alexander Bender's living quarters. Bender showed CBS News what remains of the building. A fleece somehow survived, now scarred by shrapnel.

Holly Williams tours the Al Asad Air Base in Iraq after it was targeted in an Iranian missile strike.  CBS NEWS

The U.S. troops hunkered down in bunkers that night, but most weren't designed to withstand a direct hit from a ballistic missile strike.

"We huddled together and held one another," said Senior Airman Mary Katherine Mulholland, who is on her first-ever tour of duty. "I still can't fathom that no one was hurt."

There's been speculation that Iran deliberately missed American troops in order to avoid further escalation with the United States, but a senior U.S. coalition military official told CBS News that's not true. The Iranians, in his words, were shooting to kill.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-troops-describe-iranian-missile-strike-thats-just-not-something-you-survive-2020-01-13/

[homersapien 11,357]

14 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Has this been proven?

People need to wait for things to be assessed before just running with initial media reactions and coverage. MSNBC flat out spread Iranian state TV propaganda saying 30-50 U.S. troops had been killed, while covering the missile attack. It's amazing how our media doesn't show the same skepticism towards Iran's state run media that they do towards other countries like North Korea or Russia.

Iran missed because U.S. troops were able to take cover just minutes before the missiles hit, not because they were intentionally trying to miss. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-troops-describe-iranian-missile-strike-thats-just-not-something-you-survive-2020-01-13/

You make a good point. 

Trump was obviously eager to portray Iran as effectively "standing down". 

 

 

[AUFAN78 3,892]

On 1/11/2020 at 5:12 PM, Brad_ATX said:

This right here is where you lose me.  We killed their top military official.  Let's assume for a second a country does the same to us and takes out the Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  Think we aren't retaliating?

What? So you actually think we'd shoot down a civilian passenger jet? Damn.
 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

What? So you actually think we'd shoot down a civilian passenger jet? Damn.
 

That wasn't the argument being made at all.  But please, keep me posted on your straw man.

[AUFAN78 3,892]

21 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

That wasn't the argument being made at all.  But please, keep me posted on your straw man.

Taken in context it was, but I get the desire for your digression. Carry on.