Signs missed and steps slowed in U.S. response

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

20 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Trump?    I am most certainly pressing for Trump to be fired.

You have made that obvious for almost 4 years Brother Homer. You have now chosen our latest and biggest problem to march on with your crusade. Very disappointing.... with your above average intellect and scientific mind you could bring some value to this board rather than "media chatter".

[homersapien 11,354]

7 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

For you? No, probably not. Do you not have YouTube goofball? His name is Dr. Fauci. Do your homework.

OK, then allow me:

Before the President's extended defense of himself, Dr. Anthony Fauci stepped to the podium to clarify comments he'd made a day earlier about the administration's handling of the global coronavirus pandemic, a striking show of reconciliation following a day of questions about his future on the White House task force.

 

Fauci said he was responding to a "hypothetical question" during an appearance on CNN's "State of the Union" program on Sunday when he said more could have been done to save American lives. He claimed his response "was taken as a way that maybe somehow something was at fault here" and said his remark about "pushback" inside the administration to some of his recommendations was a poor choice of words.

 

Funny, while I see a lot of diplomatic language - aka kowtowing to Dear Leader - I don't see the words "Fake News" in there at all. 

 

Stop lying.

[homersapien 11,354]

2 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

You have made that obvious for almost 4 years Brother Homer. You have now chosen our latest and biggest problem to march on with your crusade. Very disappointing.... with your above average intellect and scientific mind you could bring some value to this board rather than "media chatter".

I doubt it.  The people who have comparable intellects and/or scientific minds don't really need me and the rest are hopeless. 

They believe whatever comes out of Dear Leaders mouth and dismiss rational analysis from the press as "media chatter".

[AUFAN78 3,890]

7 minutes ago, homersapien said:

OK, then allow me:

Before the President's extended defense of himself, Dr. Anthony Fauci stepped to the podium to clarify comments he'd made a day earlier about the administration's handling of the global coronavirus pandemic, a striking show of reconciliation following a day of questions about his future on the White House task force.

 

Fauci said he was responding to a "hypothetical question" during an appearance on CNN's "State of the Union" program on Sunday when he said more could have been done to save American lives. He claimed his response "was taken as a way that maybe somehow something was at fault here" and said his remark about "pushback" inside the administration to some of his recommendations was a poor choice of words.

 

Funny, while I see a lot of diplomatic language - aka kowtowing to Dear Leader - I don't see the words "Fake News" in there at all. 

 

Stop lying.

Are you even serious? Words? What a joke. Misinterpreting and taking out of context is precisely the Fake News we've been discussing. And it is precisely why he pushed back on CNN. Time to take your meds old man. 

[homersapien 11,354]

5 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Are you even serious? Words? What a joke. Misinterpreting and taking out of context is precisely the Fake News we've been discussing. And it is precisely why he pushed back on CNN. Time to take your meds old man. 

Words are not a "joke".   Words are the currency of this forum.  And your currency is worthless.

You specifically said Fauci called the CNN interview "fake news".   That's not true.  It's lying.

If you cannot acknowledge that reality, I don't care to waste any more time with you. 

I'll just put you on ignore like I have a few others who had similar problems with backing down and just admitting they were actually wrong in their assertions (lying).   And you bring a lot less to a discussion than they did.

 

 

[homersapien 11,354]

57 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Hey dumba$$, it was Fauci that called it fake news. Pay attention you old fool.

 

50 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I know you claimed he did. But unless you can produce the quote or a clip, I say you are lying.

Trump more or less invented the term "Fake News" and fools like you just lap it up. I presented the "Fake News" piece - which explains Trump's logic - to illustrate the vacuousness of the term, including your use of it in this particular case.

So don't jump to conclusions and quit projecting.  You don't possess the cognition for it.

 

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

38 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I doubt it.  The people who have comparable intellects and/or scientific minds don't really need me and the rest are hopeless. 

They believe whatever comes out of Dear Leaders mouth and dismiss rational analysis from the press as "media chatter".

Curious? When would you think we actually had the virus here. December? January......?

[AUFAN78 3,890]

25 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Words are not a "joke".   Words are the currency of this forum.  And your currency is worthless. Are you an idiot? Words as in Fake News have meanings. You know like the the intentional misrepresentation as CNN did here. You know, the lies and intentional misrepresentations we've been discussing. Ring a bell?

You specifically said Fauci called the CNN interview "fake news".   That's not true.  It's lying. Yes, you are an idiot. See above fool.

If you cannot acknowledge that reality, I don't care to waste any more time with you. You don't enjoy being embarrassed. Just shut up then. And stop lying.

I'll just put you on ignore like I have a few others who had similar problems with backing down and just admitting they were actually wrong in their assertions (lying).   And you bring a lot less to a discussion than they did. I rarely if ever have long discussions as they aren't necessary. Skipped business school huh?

 

 

 

[homersapien 11,354]

20 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Curious? When would you think we actually had the virus here. December? January......?

The first confirmed case was in mid-Jan and he presented with symptoms that were 4 days old.  https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2001191

But I can't speculate when the virus first showed up in the U.S.

Why do you ask?

[IronMan70 3,277]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Fauci quickly changed his position as he obtained more information. 

Trump did not.  He wasted 70 days which were critical.

And you most certainly blamed Fauci for providing incorrect advice to Trump and the country. 

Stop weaseling.

And Trump is spinning the facts in full campaign mode. He knows he's in trouble. 

 

Trump didn't change his position ? He banned China travel on 1/30 when we had 5 cases. 

Wasting 70 days ? Uh no, not even close, but Fauci was advising him at least thru late February that the threat from COVID-19 was miniscule and flu was a bigger danger, so there is that. On March 11, Fauci was advising that people could go on cruises.

I criticized Fauci for giving bad advise and he did just that, I never said it was all his fault. That is called being factual, not weaseling. You can't admit I never said all and your accusation was false. 

POTUS is in trouble ? His approval ratings are higher not lower.

You are 0 for 4.

[AUFAN78 3,890]

This isn't the video pinocchio asked for, but envisioning his smile during this one is priceless. 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/13/trump_plays_video_attacking_media_at_coronavirus_briefing_media_minimized_the_risk_from_the_start.html

[AUFAN78 3,890]

More truths emerge.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/taiwan-releases-december-email-showing-unheeded-warning-to-who-about-coronavirus

[homersapien 11,354]

On 4/13/2020 at 10:44 PM, IronMan70 said:

Trump didn't change his position ? He banned China travel on 1/30 when we had 5 cases. 

Not exactly:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/22/trump-never-actually-banned-flights-from-china-or-/

Trump is greatly exaggerating the effect of his "travel restrictions". 

 

Quote

Wasting 70 days ? Uh no, not even close, but Fauci was advising him at least thru late February that the threat from COVID-19 was miniscule and flu was a bigger danger, so there is that. On March 11, Fauci was advising that people could go on cruises.

Fauci was not Trump's only advisor.  He was getting a lot of input, including from his administration:

 

• The National Security Council office responsible for tracking pandemics received intelligence reports in early January predicting the spread of the virus to the United States, and within weeks was raising options like keeping Americans home from work and shutting down cities the size of Chicago. Mr. Trump would avoid such steps until March.

• Despite Mr. Trump’s denial weeks later, he was told at the time about a Jan. 29 memo produced by his trade adviser, Peter Navarro, laying out in striking detail the potential risks of a coronavirus pandemic: as many as half a million deaths and trillions of dollars in economic losses.

• The health and human services secretary, Alex M. Azar II, directly warned Mr. Trump of the possibility of a pandemic during a call on Jan. 30, the second warning he delivered to the president about the virus in two weeks. The president, who was on Air Force One while traveling for appearances in the Midwest, responded that Mr. Azar was being alarmist.

• Mr. Azar publicly announced in February that the government was establishing a “surveillance” system in five American cities to measure the spread of the virus and enable experts to project the next hot spots. It was delayed for weeks. The slow start of that plan, on top of the well-documented failures to develop the nation’s testing capacity, left administration officials with almost no insight into how rapidly the virus was spreading. “We were flying the plane with no instruments,” one official said.

• By the third week in February, the administration’s top public health experts concluded they should recommend to Mr. Trump a new approach that would include warning the American people of the risks and urging steps like social distancing and staying home from work. But the White House focused instead on messaging and crucial additional weeks went by before their views were reluctantly accepted by the president — time when the virus spread largely unimpeded.

When Mr. Trump finally agreed in mid-March to recommend social distancing across the country, effectively bringing much of the economy to a halt, he seemed shellshocked and deflated to some of his closest associates. One described him as “subdued” and “baffled” by how the crisis had played out. An economy that he had wagered his re-election on was suddenly in shambles.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html

 

Quote

I criticized Fauci for giving bad advise and he did just that, I never said it was all his fault. That is called being factual, not weaseling. You can't admit I never said all and your accusation was false. 

OK, I did imply you were parroting "It was all Fauci's fault" line of blame assignment that characterizes the recent "re-tweeting" incident by Trump.  That was in error and I apologize. 

 

But none of that has any bearing on the amount of time Trump wasted.  Regardless of how effective that restriction was (and the history of pandemic in the U.S. suggests it wasn't) Trump keeps touting it as the mark of just how early he responded (Jan. 31).  

But the U.S. received formal notification of the coronavirus outbreak in China Jan. 3, a full 28 days before he instituted the largely ineffectual travel restrictions.

And even after Jan. 31, Trump continued to downplay the seriousness of the threat, even to the extent suggesting it would die out by April.  He was obviously more concerned about the implications to his chances of reelection than he was to the possibility he could be wrong.  He had plenty of people warning him there was a real threat, but he didn't begin to entertain that possibility until mid-March.

That was 70 days that could have been used to develop more testing capability and build supplies of PPE and ventilators.  As a result, we lost any chance of containing the virus in a way that would minimize deaths and economic damage.  We have been literally behind the curve ever since.

Like it or not, as POTUS, he owns the responsibility for how we have responded as a country to this.

 

 

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

14 hours ago, homersapien said:

The first confirmed case was in mid-Jan and he presented with symptoms that were 4 days old.  https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2001191

But I can't speculate when the virus first showed up in the U.S.

Why do you ask?

Interested in your thoughts of when the spread could have began Homer. Pretty sure I read were you mentioned that some of your family members  were suspect of having had the virus. I am suspicious of the same concerning myself and dating back to February 10. My healthcare team is aware of my situation so I feel confident I will be tested for anti bodies when available and if appropriate. I had the symptoms, shortness of breath, low grade fever, and extreme fatigue. Thing that set this apart from previous times I have been sick is how long it took to get over it. Can say that only in the past week or so that I am feeling normal.    

[AUFAN78 3,890]

More truthful info emerges:

https://outline.com/WhjBuj

[homersapien 11,354]

23 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Interested in your thoughts of when the spread could have began Homer. Pretty sure I read were you mentioned that some of your family members  were suspect of having had the virus. I am suspicious of the same concerning myself and dating back to February 10. My healthcare team is aware of my situation so I feel confident I will be tested for anti bodies when available and if appropriate. I had the symptoms, shortness of breath, low grade fever, and extreme fatigue. Thing that set this apart from previous times I have been sick is how long it took to get over it. Can say that only in the past week or so that I am feeling normal.    

Do you have any idea of how you may have contacted it?

My nephew's fiance attended a conference in San Francisco with a lot of Chinese nationals in attendance.  I don't remembver the exact date, but it was in Feb.

One of the things that I think is under-emphasized in all the discussions on re-opening the country is testing capacity, both diagnostic tests and antibody tests.  IMO, without the necessary testing capacity, we are just encouraging "re-bound" outbreaks if we open up, especially since we know there are asymptomatic carriers - possibly a lot more than we imagine.

 

[SaltyTiger 7,764]

55 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Do you have any idea of how you may have contacted it?

My nephew's fiance attended a conference in San Francisco with a lot of Chinese nationals in attendance.  I don't remembver the exact date, but it was in Feb.

One of the things that I think is under-emphasized in all the discussions on re-opening the country is testing capacity, both diagnostic tests and antibody tests.  IMO, without the necessary testing capacity, we are just encouraging "re-bound" outbreaks if we open up, especially since we know there are asymptomatic carriers - possibly a lot more than we imagine.

 

Still do some work as a construction cost estimator and at the time I was frequenting an overly populated office. I say overly populated because the particular organization is still rebuilding from hurricane damages and has a crowded temporary set up. The company is diversified and have several people in out that travel extensively and often. I have not been back in the place since early March. When testing began three people in that office tested positive. If I contacted it that would be my guess  but who knows?

Agree with you on the so-called "re-open". 

[autigeremt 6,569]

I think it’s clear now that President Obama killed 12,462 people in 2009 due to his failed preparation for H1N1, which infected over 60 million Americans. Details at eleve......never mind! We’re not going to talk about that! It’s no longer important to compare administrations. 

 

😎

[homersapien 11,354]

10 hours ago, autigeremt said:

I think it’s clear now that President Obama killed 12,462 people in 2009 due to his failed preparation for H1N1, which infected over 60 million Americans. Details at eleve......never mind! We’re not going to talk about that! It’s no longer important to compare administrations. 

 

😎

Let's talk about it. 

Please start with those details.

[Grumps 3,693]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

Let's talk about it. 

Please start with those details.

What about the details? The statistics are from the CDC. How many lives would have been saved if we had "socially distanced" at that time? Do those lives matter? What groups were most likely to die? Did the administration at the time take it seriously? How do we know? What did they know and when did they know it?

[Grumps 3,693]

https://www.biospace.com/article/2009-h1n1-pandemic-versus-the-2020-coronavirus-pandemic/

[alexava 6,973]

I can’t believe we are still doing this...

[homersapien 11,354]

5 hours ago, Grumps said:

What about the details? The statistics are from the CDC. How many lives would have been saved if we had "socially distanced" at that time? Do those lives matter? What groups were most likely to die? Did the administration at the time take it seriously? How do we know? What did they know and when did they know it?

Well, if one assumes that 12,462 is accurate, it would obviously be some fraction of that.

And yes, those lives "matter".

But whether or not that amount of lives would "justify" shutting down the economy is a different question - a political (leadership) question.    Do you  think Obama should have proposed the same strategies we are now using?

 

[Grumps 3,693]

14 hours ago, homersapien said:

Well, if one assumes that 12,462 is accurate, it would obviously be some fraction of that.

And yes, those lives "matter".

But whether or not that amount of lives would "justify" shutting down the economy is a different question - a political (leadership) question.    Do you  think Obama should have proposed the same strategies we are now using?

 

I agree with you!

No, I don't think that Obama should have proposed the same strategies that we are now using. The families of some of the dead people from H1N1 might wish that he had. Was Obama advised to shut down the economy? Do you think that Trump has been too cautious? Should we put a specific monetary value on human lives (since we know there is one)?

[autigeremt 6,569]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:29 AM, homersapien said:

Let's talk about it. 

Please start with those details.

I did. The ball is back in your court.