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Signs missed and steps slowed in U.S. response


homersapien

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On 4/15/2020 at 1:56 PM, SaltyTiger said:

Still do some work as a construction cost estimator and at the time I was frequenting an overly populated office. I say overly populated because the particular organization is still rebuilding from hurricane damages and has a crowded temporary set up. The company is diversified and have several people in out that travel extensively and often. I have not been back in the place since early March. When testing began three people in that office tested positive. If I contacted it that would be my guess  but who knows?

Agree with you on the so-called "re-open". 

just admit what kind of beer you drink buster..............lol

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On 4/16/2020 at 3:46 PM, Grumps said:

What about the details? The statistics are from the CDC. Summary statistics of how many people died from H1N1 do not constitute "details" of how the Obama administration allowed it to happen from negligent behavior.

How many lives would have been saved if we had "socially distanced" at that time? Don't know.  How transmissible was H1N1 compared to Coronavirus 19?

Do those lives matter? All lives matter

What groups were most likely to die? Don't know, you tell me since you are the one bringing up the subject.

Did the administration at the time take it seriously? Don't know, you tell me since you are the one making the claim. (But I am confident that unlike Trump, Obama was far more receptive to expert advice.)

How do we know? By researching the history

What did they know and when did they know it? You tell me, since you are the one making the claim.

 

A viral outbreak can occur on any POTUS's watch.  That doesn't mean they caused the virus nor does it mean they could have prevented or reduced the number of deaths it caused.

In other words, the "details" associated with a given POTUS's reaction to an outbreak are what is important in assessing the value of that president's leadership. 

In the case of coronavirus 19 we know that Trump wasted about 70 days after being informed of the potential danger but failed to plan for it and, in fact, poo-poo'ed the threat with numerous public statements.  I think he, 1) didn't really understand what he was being told by the experts and 2) he didn't want to accept the implications of how it may affect his re-election chances, and 3) was disdainful of experts because he was too arrogant to trust them.

Now there is a lot of detailed evidence that supports that.

I don't think Obama possess the personality disorders that characterize Trump. I think Obama has the good sense to take expert advice seriously and act on it in a way he thinks is best for the country. So by details, I mean examples to the contrary.

You and EMT seem to be claiming that the deaths from H1N1 virus should  be directly contributed to Obama's response. (I mean after all, one could just as easily say those deaths were greatly reduced from what they would have been had Obama not responded. (You'll be hearing a lot of these claims from Trump if this ends before the election.)

So, let's hear some details about Obama's handling of the H1N1 virus, since you seem to know what they were.

And stop asking me for information to support your claims.

Do your own research.

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3 hours ago, homersapien said:

Now there is a lot of detailed evidence that supports that.

Link to articles that support the premise. Not opinion pieces from a loser rag, but medical experts on record that told Trump admin to act and they did not. Let's see it straight from the horses mouth or you're a liar. Again.

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7 hours ago, homersapien said:

You and EMT seem to be claiming that the deaths from H1N1 virus should  be directly contributed to Obama's response. (I mean after all, one could just as easily say those deaths were greatly reduced from what they would have been had Obama not responded. (You'll be hearing a lot of these claims from Trump if this ends before the election.)

How many deaths are you attributing to Trumps "lack of response" Brother Homer? 

"(You'll be hearing a lot of these claims from Trump if this ends before the election.)"

bet your sweet ass on that. Very suspicious that some types would love to see thing continue for a bit, which is shameful imo.

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27 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

How many deaths are you attributing to Trumps "lack of response" Brother Homer? 

 

Of course there is no way to actually know for sure, but given the mathematics associated with a pandemic of such a highly transmissible virus, I would expect it to be in the thousands. 

Seventy days is a long time in those circumstances.

Good thing it wasn't some sort of strategic military attack on the country, huh?

 

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34 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Very suspicious that some types would love to see thing continue for a bit, which is shameful imo.

Care to expound on that?  Who are you referring to?

 

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On 4/20/2020 at 1:08 PM, homersapien said:

No you did not.

(See my post above.)

I most certainly did. Move on 😎

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Good  article on the response to Covid-19. Looks like some of the blame could be put on the CDC. 
 

https://www.livescience.com/amp/covid-19-pandemic-vs-swine-flu.html

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It is amazing how accurate this article is about missed opportunities when it is written in hindsight, it is also amazing how it only talks about what the Whitehouse missed and not about what the Democrats missed and what the press missed. There is no doubt that if we had started locking down sooner we would have been better off. But the same press that is castigating the Whitehouse now and the same Democrats who are castigating the Whitehouse were against Trump when he blocked travel from China many of the national media outlets like myself well into March touted how many more people were dying of the flu.  

Yes Navarro was correct on some of the things he said might happen but there were many other experts who disagreed with him. The Chinese told everybody that the disease was not transmittable between human's that slowed the response. The Chinese blocked all internal traffic from Wuhan to rest of China but left open International Flights.  Basically most of the information we got out of China was false and until we started getting belatedly correct information from countries like Italy and France we did not know about what it's potential really was.

I can't deny if we had started the lockdowns a month earlier we might have nipped this in the bud at least for a time but that is hindsight not based on the information at the time. Yes there were some people who predicted this but they were in the minority and many other experts in the medical field disagreed with them at the time. Look how hard Europe has been hit by this also because they were given the same false information by the Chinese. These are modern countries with a wealth of Medical expertise and they were caught Off-Guard. As for stock piling of PPE and Ventilators that has to happen over many years and many administrations by January there wasn't enough for the whole world as manufacturing output would have had to increase by at least 5 fold to make up for the shortage worldwide.

Throughout the Trump administration he has been trying to bring manufacturing back to the US. The real story is how unprepared we were because of allowing so much of the medical manufacturing of drugs and equipment that was designed in the US go to China.. We can blame multiple administrations including the Trump administration for this..

The other issue that was not really covered in this article is how unprepared individual States were.  States rely on the Federal Government to help them when a catastrophe hits them and the Government does a good job after a hurricane or tornado but that is localized to a part  of the US. In this case the federal government had to help 50 states at the same time, in that type of scenario the individual states should have had their own stockpiles which sadly it turned out they did not. In no way should the Federal Government have had enough in a stockpiled to cover the huge shortages each state had. New York asked for 30,000 Ventilators turned out they didn't need that many and at no time was a patient denied a Ventilator because they did not have one.  There is no doubt not having enough PPE hurt our frontline Doctor's and nurses and probably caused some to become sick and die of the virus who would not have if PPE had been provided, How much of that can be blamed on local and state governments not even be prepared with things like masks. 

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On 4/21/2020 at 9:00 PM, SaltyTiger said:

Political foes of course. Who would you think?

So, you believe "political foes" - presumably of Trump - think they are immune to the virus?

Is any opposition to the way Trump is "managing" this "suspicious" to you?

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2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So, you believe "political foes" - presumably of Trump - think they are immune to the virus?

Is opposition to the way Trump is "managing" this "suspicious" to you?

No, not immune. Just cautious regarding anything I hear, see, or read. I am not sure anyone could or would manage this thing correctly. No one knows at this point including you.

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16 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

No, not immune. Just cautious regarding anything I hear, see, or read. I am not sure anyone could or would manage this thing correctly. No one knows at this point including you.

I am damn well certain that Trump cannot "manage this thing correctly".

He is a complete fool. (In addition to being a narcissistic, psychopathic con man.) He is desperately looking for a miracle because it's happening on "his watch"

If you can't see that, then you're not just "cautious", you are ******* blind.   Hear and see this:

 

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9 hours ago, homersapien said:

If you can't see that, then you're not just "cautious", you are ******* blind.   Hear and see this:

Coming next is a UV light shortage. 

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9 hours ago, homersapien said:

I am damn well certain that Trump cannot "manage this thing correctly".

He is a complete fool. (In addition to being a narcissistic, psychopathic con man.) He is desperately looking for a miracle because it's happening on "his watch"

If you can't see that, then you're not just "cautious", you are ******* blind.   Hear and see this:

 

I should know better than to jump in here, but I'm booooooored at work already and by myself....(long time lurker in this particular forum)

 

I'm neither a Trump hater nor lover (we're a rarity), but this was a MOST cringe-worthy moment. Part of me wants to say he was just speaking off the cuff and trying to be a Ra-Ra cheerleader, but this isn't the time or place IMO. He should just step aside and let the others talk (but we know that will NEVER happen). Those pressers are impossible to watch, sorry...

I get that he wants the wheels of the economy to start rolling again, but that puts lives at risk. It's a position I'm glad I'm not in but my opinion doesn't really mean crap and it can start and end there, which I'm fine with. I see both sides of this, but he's talking himself into a corner he may not be able to climb out of. 

Side note... my 95 year old grandmother, who has COVID-19 and is in a hospital in Auburn (I'm in Maine, but I can at least call her) has been taking the hydroxochloroquine treatment and she's starting to turn the corner! Still a scary situation though, waiting on her last test to come back

Last note... homersapien. I may not always agree with what you say, but I must commend your passion and research. I love a good debate, but it seems people don't know the difference between debate and arguing anymore (not implying you there, just making a general statement).

-Jim Lahey

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10 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

It is amazing how accurate this article is about missed opportunities when it is written in hindsight, it is also amazing how it only talks about what the Whitehouse missed and not about what the Democrats missed and what the press missed. There is no doubt that if we had started locking down sooner we would have been better off. But the same press that is castigating the Whitehouse now and the same Democrats who are castigating the Whitehouse were against Trump when he blocked travel from China many of the national media outlets like myself well into March touted how many more people were dying of the flu.  

Yes Navarro was correct on some of the things he said might happen but there were many other experts who disagreed with him. The Chinese told everybody that the disease was not transmittable between human's that slowed the response. The Chinese blocked all internal traffic from Wuhan to rest of China but left open International Flights.  Basically most of the information we got out of China was false and until we started getting belatedly correct information from countries like Italy and France we did not know about what it's potential really was.

I can't deny if we had started the lockdowns a month earlier we might have nipped this in the bud at least for a time but that is hindsight not based on the information at the time. Yes there were some people who predicted this but they were in the minority and many other experts in the medical field disagreed with them at the time. Look how hard Europe has been hit by this also because they were given the same false information by the Chinese. These are modern countries with a wealth of Medical expertise and they were caught Off-Guard. As for stock piling of PPE and Ventilators that has to happen over many years and many administrations by January there wasn't enough for the whole world as manufacturing output would have had to increase by at least 5 fold to make up for the shortage worldwide.

Throughout the Trump administration he has been trying to bring manufacturing back to the US. The real story is how unprepared we were because of allowing so much of the medical manufacturing of drugs and equipment that was designed in the US go to China.. We can blame multiple administrations including the Trump administration for this..

The other issue that was not really covered in this article is how unprepared individual States were.  States rely on the Federal Government to help them when a catastrophe hits them and the Government does a good job after a hurricane or tornado but that is localized to a part  of the US. In this case the federal government had to help 50 states at the same time, in that type of scenario the individual states should have had their own stockpiles which sadly it turned out they did not. In no way should the Federal Government have had enough in a stockpiled to cover the huge shortages each state had. New York asked for 30,000 Ventilators turned out they didn't need that many and at no time was a patient denied a Ventilator because they did not have one.  There is no doubt not having enough PPE hurt our frontline Doctor's and nurses and probably caused some to become sick and die of the virus who would not have if PPE had been provided, How much of that can be blamed on local and state governments not even be prepared with things like masks. 

the problem is trump nd the white house were getting emails LAST year late from americans in the who. he played it off at a hoax and then added it was a dem hoax. he was warned several times and he still had some rallies and even played golf. he did not take it as serious as he should have. that is fact and cannot be refuted. i have watched him rerun his mouth again on youtube when he was claiming dem hoax. but hey if you trust trump go take one of those shots to clean yourselves of the virus. oh, and let me know how it comes out. you need to go google what he said and when he said it and you will see. could he prevent all the deaths? of course not. but he has blood on his hands by playing politics with this mess and that is fact.

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well remember the time when trump said he could kill someone in broad daylight and get away with it? well guess what.........he did. and more than one. the fact he did not use a gun does not matter.

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1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

the problem is trump nd the white house were getting emails LAST year late from americans in the who. he played it off at a hoax and then added it was a dem hoax. he was warned several times and he still had some rallies and even played golf. he did not take it as serious as he should have. that is fact and cannot be refuted. i have watched him rerun his mouth again on youtube when he was claiming dem hoax. but hey if you trust trump go take one of those shots to clean yourselves of the virus. oh, and let me know how it comes out. you need to go google what he said and when he said it and you will see. could he prevent all the deaths? of course not. but he has blood on his hands by playing politics with this mess and that is fact.

He did say some of those things but so did the Democrats, My whole point was he was the first one to block travel from China and the people who hate Trump then and now really lit him up for doing it those same people are saying he waited to long to take it seriously. Trump is his own worst enemy he does have a bad habit of speaking without thinking and it comes back to haunt him.  

At the time he blocked travel from China look at what Biden and Pelosi said. If they had been in charge we would have infected Chinese coming into the country for many weeks more.  Did he get communications warning of the threat yes as did Pelosi and others on both sides of the aisle at the same time he had experts like Dr. Fauci down playing the threat. Despite what everybody says about Trump waiting to long we were one of the first Nations to take this seriously except China and China hid what they knew. 

If you are going to be intellectually honest how come you give Pelosi and Biden a pass on what they said and what they suggested we do. It was only after it really hit the proverbial fan that all of a sudden they are saying he waited to long. They actually initially said he was making a mountain out of a molehill when he acted.

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26 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

He did say some of those things but so did the Democrats, My whole point was he was the first one to block travel from China and the people who hate Trump then and now really lit him up for doing it those same people are saying he waited to long to take it seriously. Trump is his own worst enemy he does have a bad habit of speaking without thinking and it comes back to haunt him.  

At the time he blocked travel from China look at what Biden and Pelosi said. If they had been in charge we would have infected Chinese coming into the country for many weeks more.  Did he get communications warning of the threat yes as did Pelosi and others on both sides of the aisle at the same time he had experts like Dr. Fauci down playing the threat. Despite what everybody says about Trump waiting to long we were one of the first Nations to take this seriously except China and China hid what they knew. 

If you are going to be intellectually honest how come you give Pelosi and Biden a pass on what they said and what they suggested we do. It was only after it really hit the proverbial fan that all of a sudden they are saying he waited to long. They actually initially said he was making a mountain out of a molehill when he acted.

i am not giving anyone a pass. they are not running the country like trump is. show me a link for all that. but guess what? they were not trying to make it political like trump and his dem hoax. and other than trump maybe being right about china fudging the numbers we have the highest death rates of this than anyone else.........except maybe china and we will never know that for sure probably. i understand just about anyone facing this would make mistakes. and then there is trump. he was still having reelection rallies and playing golf when this first hit. that is fact.

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6 minutes ago, homersapien said:

How are we supposed to inject it?  Trump left out that minor detail.

 

 

Don't know Brother Homer. Stay tuned this after at 5:00. Briefings are about encourage a Biden sticker for my truck. BTW, Mrs Salty claims he parts his hair on the right some days, on the left other days. Have you noticed? You pay more attention to him than me.

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2 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Don't know Brother Homer. Stay tuned this after at 5:00. Briefings are about encourage a Biden sticker for my truck. BTW, Mrs Salty claims he parts his hair on the right some days, on the left other days. Have you noticed? You pay more attention to him than me.

What hair? :dunno:

Or were you referring to Trump?  Now there's some hair! 

I think his part begins just at his left ear and covers all his head, with a couple of changes in direction en route.  ;D

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48 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

i am not giving anyone a pass. they are not running the country like trump is. show me a link for all that. but guess what? they were not trying to make it political like trump and his dem hoax. and other than trump maybe being right about china fudging the numbers we have the highest death rates of this than anyone else.........except maybe china and we will never know that for sure probably. i understand just about anyone facing this would make mistakes. and then there is trump. he was still having reelection rallies and playing golf when this first hit. that is fact.

Yoy are quoting the that the US has had the largest number of cases and the largest number of deaths and you are correct.  We really can't trust the numbers out of China, Russia, Iran and a few other countries but what you really need to look at is number of death's per million 

Please go to the following site and sort by that parameter;

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Also many countries have admitted that if somebody had a serious pre-existing condition and got Coronavirus the cause of death was listed as the pre-existing condition. That skews the numbers. Many of the third world countries are so busy trying to deal with the pandemic they are not capable at this time of providing accurate numbers. If you look at this one interesting things is the more modern countries have higher death per million rates. Probably because their counts are more accurate not because it is a reality.

 

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