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doc4aday

Play the season without fans at the stadium

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On the question of 2020 football and opening the country up in general: I think (or at least hope) that most of us encountered a balance scale at various points in our Auburn education.

Realizing that there is no win-win with this virus situation, lets put this on our scale and weigh the misery. On one side of the balance put one hundred thousand deaths due to the virus, and assume that there will be another one hundred thousand to come. That's two hundred thousand deaths. On the other side, put 39 million people who lost their jobs. Weight the family financial tragedy, increased alcohol and drug abuse and domestic violence caused by the lockdown and 39 million lost jobs. Include the undiagnosed cancer and similar diseases. Include the scheduled knee and hip replacements, hernia repair and spinal surgeries that have been postponed. Lets don't forget the 18 and under folks that are at very minimal risk yet have had their educations and important (to them and their development) social lives interrupted.

There is no comparison, our balance crashes down hard on the side of the misery caused by the lockdown. The deaths are tragic, but they are far, far outweighed by the many other tragic consequences of closing America down. It's time to put the lessons we've learned about confinement and nursing homes into practice and open back up.

 

Edited by Mikey
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@Quietmaninthecorner, I can agree that testing, contact tracing and isolation can work, it just needs to start at or near the beginning of the outbreak. We weren’t ready.  The concept is sound, but so is winning the SEC in August, the proof is in the pudding.  I have always treated coach speak and politicians the same, watch what they do, not what they say.

We have been talking contact tracing for some time now and the CARE Act has nothing in it about tracing.  The new proposed bill, as far as I can tell, doesn’t have anything about tracing.  I understand there is a proposed bill that would hire 330,000 contract tracers.  Lets see how that turns out.  Even if it is approved, the hiring, training and implementation will take some time. The isolation part would be very hard to accomplish.  We’ve had an incidence where a COVID positive patient was milling around when he shouldn’t. It seems government leaders have not have been inspired by the concept, probably because of the cost vs the results.  JMO.

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7 hours ago, Mikey said:

On the question of 2020 football and opening the country up in general: I think (or at least hope) that most of us encountered a balance scale at various points in our Auburn education.

Realizing that there is no win-win with this virus situation, lets put this on our scale and weigh the misery. On one side of the balance put one hundred thousand deaths due to the virus, and assume that there will be another one hundred thousand to come. That's two hundred thousand deaths. On the other side, put 39 million people who lost their jobs. Weight the family financial tragedy, increased alcohol and drug abuse and domestic violence caused by the lockdown and 39 million lost jobs. Include the undiagnosed cancer and similar diseases. Include the scheduled knee and hip replacements, hernia repair and spinal surgeries that have been postponed. Lets don't forget the 18 and under folks that are at very minimal risk yet have had their educations and important (to them and their development) social lives interrupted.

There is no comparison, our balance crashes down hard on the side of the misery caused by the lockdown. The deaths are tragic, but they are far, far outweighed by the many other tragic consequences of closing America down. It's time to put the lessons we've learned about confinement and nursing homes into practice and open back up.

 

I'm sorry for getting back involved with this conversation but I believe the above is pretty good info. 

....and, FWIW, this is coming from one of the most at-risk types out there as chemo, radiation & even this trial drug (since my cancer is rearing it's ugly head again) have given me a very compromised immune system.

I tried to lighten the mood the other day with my Star Trek no-win situation reference but I also inserted a legit question that I've, frankly, seen no one actually address with a solution (neither here, nor anywhere).  Maybe it belongs in the political forum but I don't believe so because it is a bi-partisan issue.

I understand there's a side that believes we should all be quarantining ourselves.  I understand there are myriad reasons but I'm not smart enough to get into all of the charts, curves, numbers, inaccuracies, contradictions, etc.  That said, there is certainly a segment of the population that must be ever so careful.  Again, I'm a prime example but for personal reasons it's not as hard for us....we are blessed. 

However, I cannot even imagine, and I pray hard for, the millions who want to work & support themselves & their families but are not allowed to.  I'd assume that the vast majority don't have 2-3 months of emergency savings, much less 4 months, 6 months, 8 months...

So here's the question: 

In a country that's what...trillions?....in debt, currently paying for millions who are unemployed, billions in various stimulus bills, social security, disability, (WAY, WAY, WAY) overpaid politicians' salaries, not to mention all of the legitimate & illegitimate projects that are necessary for a country to function, etc, etc, etc.... Where is the money going to come from to pay for all of this if there are not enough people working to keep feeding the IRS?

Bonus question:

If there are not enough workers to produce manufacturing, transportation, supply, education, etc.  Where's all of our basic needs going to come from?  ...and forget our cool toys and entertainment endeavors (such as college football), pro sports, Hollywood, etc.  Where are they gonna make their millions if we, who make $12/HR, can't work ourselves and can't pay to support them?

Is the idea of suffering or even dieing from this virus scary?  Yes.  But the idea of the USA screeching to a halt, going into a great depression and giving up our freedoms is just as scary.

Again, it seems almost a no win situation so instead of leadership (or us citizens) arguing about the hows & whys they/we should maybe be conversing & sharing ideas to solve the problem.

The solution is out there.....but nobody seems to really want to discuss it.  ....and I'm DEFINITELY not smart enough to figure it out.

God bless you all & I pray you & yours are doing well through this.

Edited by AUsince72
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5 hours ago, AUsince72 said:

I'm sorry for getting back involved with this conversation but I believe the above is pretty good info. 

....and, FWIW, this is coming from one of the most at-risk types out there as chemo, radiation & even this trial drug (since my cancer is rearing it's ugly head again) have given me a very compromised immune system.

I tried to lighten the mood the other day with my Star Trek no-win situation reference but I also inserted a legit question that I've, frankly, seen no one actually address with a solution (neither here, nor anywhere).  Maybe it belongs in the political forum but I don't believe so because it is a bi-partisan issue.

I understand there's a side that believes we should all be quarantining ourselves.  I understand there are myriad reasons but I'm not smart enough to get into all of the charts, curves, numbers, inaccuracies, contradictions, etc.  That said, there is certainly a segment of the population that must be ever so careful.  Again, I'm a prime example but for personal reasons it's not as hard for us....we are blessed. 

However, I cannot even imagine, and I pray hard for, the millions who want to work & support themselves & their families but are not allowed to.  I'd assume that the vast majority don't have 2-3 months of emergency savings, much less 4 months, 6 months, 8 months...

So here's the question: 

In a country that's what...trillions?....in debt, currently paying for millions who are unemployed, billions in various stimulus bills, social security, disability, (WAY, WAY, WAY) overpaid politicians' salaries, not to mention all of the legitimate & illegitimate projects that are necessary for a country to function, etc, etc, etc.... Where is the money going to come from to pay for all of this if there are not enough people working to keep feeding the IRS?

Bonus question:

If there are not enough workers to produce manufacturing, transportation, supply, education, etc.  Where's all of our basic needs going to come from?  ...and forget our cool toys and entertainment endeavors (such as college football), pro sports, Hollywood, etc.  Where are they gonna make their millions if we, who make $12/HR, can't work ourselves and can't pay to support them?

Is the idea of suffering or even dieing from this virus scary?  Yes.  But the idea of the USA screeching to a halt, going into a great depression and giving up our freedoms is just as scary.

Again, it seems almost a no win situation so instead of leadership (or us citizens) arguing about the hows & whys they/we should maybe be conversing & sharing ideas to solve the problem.

The solution is out there.....but nobody seems to really want to discuss it.  ....and I'm DEFINITELY not smart enough to figure it out.

God bless you all & I pray you & yours are doing well through this.

What you are failing to take into account is that COVID cost money also.  Opening the country is not going to save the economy.   We can lose lives and the economy or we can   save lives and lose the economy. . 

 

 Real  numbers here.  Not fantasy future numbers.

The average cost for COVID hospitalizations   $ 35,000. 

So far we have way more than   300,000+ hospitalizations .

300,000  X  $35,000  =  $10.5 Trillion dollars .     ($10,500,000,0000)    That is  as of RIGHT NOW and increasing every minute!   Who is going to pay for that?    

 

Fantasy future numbers here........ by the end of the year cases will most likely triple.  $31,500,000,000 per year!   Who is going to pay for that? 

 

You can't ignore the economic suffering  that comes from Corona.   It is not going to magically stop or even decrease because the country is open.  

Edited by Quietmaninthecorner

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29 minutes ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

What you are failing to take into account is that COVID cost money also.  Opening the country is not going to save the economy.   We can lose lives and the economy or we can   save lives and lose the economy. . 

No, I'm not failing to realize anything.

I'm not discussing the covid numbers & cost on purpose as there are many blue faces on this forum for all the back n forth arguing the "problems", so I have nothing to add to that.

I just have gone over (not with a fine tooth comb admittedly) 10 pages of this discussion and have not seen where anyone has offered a "solution".  As Mikey said, there's no win-win here...at all.  But there's gotta be a compromise to even the scales somewhere, right?

If not, then I suppose we're just all gonna die, whether it be of sickness, starvation or civil war.

I'm not arguing with you, I promise.  I'm not smart enough to discuss the problem OR offer the solution.  I'm just asking, has anyone seen real solutions offered, whether on the 'net, TV, radio, real life?  Anyone?  I'd just love to hear it if you have.  Maybe shift the conversation toward hope instead of despair.

God bless you, brother.  I certainly hope & pray you and yours are safe!

Edited by AUsince72
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9 hours ago, Mikey said:

On the question of 2020 football and opening the country up in general: I think (or at least hope) that most of us encountered a balance scale at various points in our Auburn education.

Realizing that there is no win-win with this virus situation, lets put this on our scale and weigh the misery. On one side of the balance put one hundred thousand deaths due to the virus, and assume that there will be another one hundred thousand to come. That's two hundred thousand deaths. On the other side, put 39 million people who lost their jobs. Weight the family financial tragedy, increased alcohol and drug abuse and domestic violence caused by the lockdown and 39 million lost jobs. Include the undiagnosed cancer and similar diseases. Include the scheduled knee and hip replacements, hernia repair and spinal surgeries that have been postponed. Lets don't forget the 18 and under folks that are at very minimal risk yet have had their educations and important (to them and their development) social lives interrupted.

There is no comparison, our balance crashes down hard on the side of the misery caused by the lockdown. The deaths are tragic, but they are far, far outweighed by the many other tragic consequences of closing America down. It's time to put the lessons we've learned about confinement and nursing homes into practice and open back up.

 

It’s not a matter of opening it’s a matter of how we open. I have had times I have had to go into dangerous situations because I had no other choice . What I did have was the sense to be educated about how I went in. Same hear . I don’t understand why people feel criminalized by wearing a face mask. I’m in the middle of contact training class thru John Hopkins so I maybe understand things a little better than others but this I can tell you, if everyone wore a face mask ( correctly) we would almost completely eliminate it. This SARS-CoV-2 has an infection rate of 2.5. So If everybody that gets it does not  do anything and we don’t take precautions then 1=2=4=8=16=32=64=128 etc. so for ever person that wears a mask it makes a vast improvement . Gloves are  needed by medical people but normal folks just need to wash your hands often . Each  time you do something to prevent it, just think how many possible cases you prevent. And while 3 to 4 percent those effected sound small consider if 250 million of our 320 million got infected ( that’s the number it would take to get herd immunity if it’s even possible) we would be looking at 7.5 million Americans dying. Don’t know about you but that is not a number I am willing to take. And that doesn’t include putting our first responders  in a inhuman position. Stay safe. War Eagle. 🦅

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50 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

 

I just have gone over (not with a fine tooth comb admittedly) 10 pages of this discussion and have not seen where anyone has offered a "solution".  But there's gotta be a compromise to even the scales somewhere, right? 

If not, then I suppose we're just all gonna die, whether it be of sickness, starvation or civil war.

 

I've offered  the solution that is working for other countries and some states many times in this thread.   We are just blowing it. 

 Today,  Cyprus, Slovenia,  and Croatia have  announces beating the virus adding to the dozen or so I posted earlier in this or other thread. 

 

Edited by Quietmaninthecorner

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13 minutes ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

I've offered  the solution that is working for other countries and some states many times in this thread.   We are just blowing it. 

 Today,  Cyprus, Slovenia,  and Croatia have  announces beating the virus adding to the dozen or so I posted earlier in this or other thread. 

 

Do you really think you can compare these countries to the US, Europe, etc. ?apples and oranges. Look at us territories like Guam. Few cases. New Zealand has about the population of Alabama. If we picked Alabama up and placed it in the middle of the Atlantic and kept everyone out, it would work out well too.   

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22 minutes ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

I've offered  the solution that is working for other countries and some states many times in this thread.   We are just blowing it. 

 Today,  Cyprus, Slovenia,  and Croatia have  announces beating the virus adding to the dozen or so I posted earlier in this or other thread. 

 

I respect that you have posted those and will skim through to find your posts.  I can't say I've seen them.

Thanks brother.

PS, if they're in the political forum I would definitely not have seen them.

Edited by AUsince72
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1 hour ago, BJCrawford said:

Do you really think you can compare these countries to the US, Europe, etc. ?apples and oranges. Look at us territories like Guam. Few cases. New Zealand has about the population of Alabama. If we picked Alabama up and placed it in the middle of the Atlantic and kept everyone out, it would work out well too.   

They are not all islands.  Some are  very close in size and population as Alabama.  Some of them  are land locked or surrounded on 3 sides like Alabama.   The majority of the cases in Alabama were caught in Alabama.   Not brought in by outsiders. 

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5 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

300,000  X  $35,000  =  $10.5 Trillion dollars .     ($10,500,000,0000)    That is  as of RIGHT NOW and increasing every minute!   Who is going to pay for that? 

300,000 x 35,000=10,500,000,000. That's 10.5 billion, not 10.5 trillion. Chump change compared to what some politicians want to spend to keep us confined.

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5 hours ago, Eagle Eye 7 said:

....... this I can tell you, if everyone wore a face mask ( correctly) we would almost completely eliminate it.

Yet, this very evening, a physician who is heading up the COVID section of a major New York hospital said on the TV news that masks are not necessary or even desirable. Just keep your hands sanitary, don't touch your face and if necessary, cough or sneeze into your elbow. He said the only small benefit provided by masks is that people are less likely to touch their faces when wearing one. Not saying he's right and you are wrong, just pointing out that this is the forth or fifth time that nationally recognized experts have flip-flopped on the mask issue.

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5 hours ago, Eagle Eye 7 said:

And while 3 to 4 percent those effected sound small consider if 250 million of our 320 million got infected ( that’s the number it would take to get herd immunity if it’s even possible) we would be looking at 7.5 million Americans dying. Don’t know about you but that is not a number I am willing to take.

What studies I've seen indicate that 1/2 of 1 % of those infected die, and half of those have been in nursing homes.  We are now knowledgeable about the nursing home issue, so maybe 1/4 of 1% of those infected in the future will die and most of them have underlying health issues. So, at the outside we might be looking at 625,000 deaths due primarily to the Wuhan Virus. Not a good thing, but that's a far cry from 7.5 million.

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Respectfully to all involved-

Please wear a mask when you go out. It won’t do much to prevent you from contracting COVID19, but it will reduce your chance of spreading it to others if you happen to be an asymptomatic carrier. Don’t be a Typhoid Mary because of your pride. This is not a political issue.  It’s an issue of protecting the heath of your fellow citizens and being responsible. This will lower transmission and increase the chances of businesses staying open without our case numbers shooting up (and causing another lockdown). Seems like everyone should be on board. There is no downside.

You may not be seeing the effects of this virus, but they are absolutely present in the larger community. I’m very glad so many of you have been spared any personal experiences with the virus. Let’s keep it that way.

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10 hours ago, WarDamnDoc said:

Respectfully to all involved-

Please wear a mask when you go out. It won’t do much to prevent you from contracting COVID19, but it will reduce your chance of spreading it to others if you happen to be an asymptomatic carrier. Don’t be a Typhoid Mary because of your pride. This is not a political issue.  It’s an issue of protecting the heath of your fellow citizens and being responsible. This will lower transmission and increase the chances of businesses staying open without our case numbers shooting up (and causing another lockdown). Seems like everyone should be on board. There is no downside.

You may not be seeing the effects of this virus, but they are absolutely present in the larger community. I’m very glad so many of you have been spared any personal experiences with the virus. Let’s keep it that way.

Your words seem nice and calming. I chilled when reading them.

I will do what you say. Even wear a yellow star to point me out.

There is an immediate downside to wearing masks. Its actually measurable.

Unfortunately why haven't we been wearing them all along then???  Maybe after 30 generations our kids will be born with plastic coverings over their faces(naturally). ?!?

Yes maybe we should move this to the political forum then. Saw some earlier comment about not making it that way. ha, its that and everything else.

Whatever this sars/mers/covid is... it evolved but not that well. Have the people with masks ever thought of this aspect... what if you did suck in some COVID particles and it nested into its usual area of reproduction. You have a good immune system and are able to fight it with low/moderate symptoms.  But yet when your body decides to cough (aka rid it of pathogens, you continuously wear face guards that trap it in). In essence keeping all that s*** in to produce even further, and further... but since you thought it was smart to wear it, one more colony of virus was able to take over enough in that time to counter you system.

I only say that cause it sounds like from a lot of people that this thing is for real. And we should still lock our asses inside. And never come out. 

Or maybe just maybe this will teach people major personal responsibility. I find the later more inviting.  

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I am convinced some people have to either be half baked or a little tipsy while posting. Good gracious.

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Yesterday, in North Carolina, in defiance of the shutdown, racing was held. I think we are going to find out soon enough if large crowds spell disaster:

010917a4-58dd-4106-8c85-3dfde13beddf.jpg

 

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4 minutes ago, Cardin Drake said:

Yesterday, in North Carolina, in defiance of the shutdown, racing was held. I think we are going to find out soon enough if large crowds spell disaster:

010917a4-58dd-4106-8c85-3dfde13beddf.jpg

 

Fake photo:

NASCAR to honor fallen veterans at Coca-Cola 600 race held without spectators

image.jpeg

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/24/us/nascar-coca-cola-600-trnd/index.html

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16 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Fake photo:

NASCAR to honor fallen veterans at Coca-Cola 600 race held without spectators

image.jpeg

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/24/us/nascar-coca-cola-600-trnd/index.html

Crazy what some will post on the internet to get a rise. There were photos published of California beaches to show they were not social distancing. They were taken on the ground at eye level, which was very deceptive. Aerial photos showed people were social distancing.......just don’t understand the motive. When the death rate hits a hundred thousand (and it will soon) that will be sensationalized big time.  It is a very sad number but not two million as was once projected.

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23 minutes ago, BJCrawford said:

Crazy what some will post on the internet to get a rise. There were photos published of California beaches to show they were not social distancing. They were taken on the ground at eye level, which was very deceptive. Aerial photos showed people were social distancing.......just don’t understand the motive. When the death rate hits a hundred thousand (and it will soon) that will be sensationalized big time.  It is a very sad number but not two million as was once projected.

It’s difficult to find the truth with so much misinformation. 

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Yeesh, guys no intentional misleading. Photo accompanied a blog story about it and the photo was from a different day.  But the truth isn't much different.  Article and video from the original source.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article242971861.html

They lined up more than two hours before the first race Saturday at Ace Speedway, and soon that line stretched 700 feet from the little ticket hut near the front gate all the way to the road. Some of them drank beer while they waited, or smoked cigarettes. They stood close together, without fear of the virus or concern for social distancing.

At the country speedway in the northwest corner of Alamance County, it was as if the coronavirus pandemic was a thing of the past. It was as if the United States wasn’t approaching 100,000 deaths from the virus, and as though much of North Carolina hadn’t been on lockdown just a week or so earlier. It was, amid a global crisis, a scene from life before.

Cars kept pulling into the grassy lot surrounding the racetrack, their arrival creating a mist of dirt and dust in the haze. The sun shined down upon the line. It continued growing longer and hotter, people inching closer to the front where they’d pay $12 to come inside and sit in the grandstand or in a lawn chair somewhere along the fence and watch the cars go by.

....more at the link

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27 minutes ago, Cardin Drake said:

Yeesh, guys no intentional misleading. Photo accompanied a blog story about it and the photo was from a different day.  But the truth isn't much different.  Article and video from the original source.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article242971861.html

They lined up more than two hours before the first race Saturday at Ace Speedway, and soon that line stretched 700 feet from the little ticket hut near the front gate all the way to the road. Some of them drank beer while they waited, or smoked cigarettes. They stood close together, without fear of the virus or concern for social distancing.

At the country speedway in the northwest corner of Alamance County, it was as if the coronavirus pandemic was a thing of the past. It was as if the United States wasn’t approaching 100,000 deaths from the virus, and as though much of North Carolina hadn’t been on lockdown just a week or so earlier. It was, amid a global crisis, a scene from life before.

Cars kept pulling into the grassy lot surrounding the racetrack, their arrival creating a mist of dirt and dust in the haze. The sun shined down upon the line. It continued growing longer and hotter, people inching closer to the front where they’d pay $12 to come inside and sit in the grandstand or in a lawn chair somewhere along the fence and watch the cars go by.

....more at the link

The photo you posted is of a super speed way such as Charlotte Motor Speedway.  The Alamance track is not like that, the fact that the Coca Cola 600 was this weekend at the Charlotte Motor Speedway gives the impression NASCAR was defying Governor Cooper’s phase 2 plans.  Nothing could be further than the truth.

Alamance is not NASCAR and the fans were going to a race that was available for them to watch and I’m not sure how that happened.  Alamance county has 268 confirmed COVID-19 cases with 11 deaths, not the epicenter here in NC, Mechlenburg county (Charlotte) is.

Knowing the geographical region is a plus when bashing another state.  I’m sure you didn’t intend to mislead, but the article was meant to be misinterpreted and was. 

People are tired of not being social, I saw it this weekend on the lake and unless a second wave hits us and we spike, people are going to be getting back to normal.

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I'm not sure what you mean-bashing another state. If I was going to bash North Carolina, I'd mention their top football school not only has never won a national championship, they now a coach who offered 2 Heisman trophy winning QB's only  as defensive backs (Robert Griffin III & Johnny Majors), and told a 3rd (Andrew Luck) that they didn't have a scholarship for him. Reportedly, he cried afterwards because he wanted to go to Texas so bad.    Below is pretty much the only point I was making, which correlates with my own observations.  Not arguing whether it's a good idea or not, just what I'm seeing.  We'll find out soon enough if it's going to cause a problem. Hopefully not, and we can go back to football in the fall. 

People are tired of not being social, I saw it this weekend on the lake and unless a second wave hits us and we spike, people are going to be getting back to normal.

And here's Lake of the Ozarks this weekend.  Maybe it's just a telephoto lens:

 

Edited by Cardin Drake
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I'm sorry, but no "restrictions" are going to make 600 17 to 23 year olds maintain social distancing at a beach. The idea is laughable.

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