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Auburn85

A list of the buildings damaged, looted in Minneapolis and St. Paul

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8 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

For protesting that apparently escalates to looting and destruction? With you M4. Mob control has to be extremely difficult and frustrating for the police.  

The two in Chicago are completely different now. Looting and destruction there now is just straight up criminal for the most part.

What they need is more man power.

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4 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Man, I watch Live PD every week and see worse than that each episode as "resisting" without force being used.  The spray needed to be a last resort option, not a knee-jerk reaction.  It was beyond excessive.

It's pretty clear that the rules governing their behavior have either changed or are being ignored. And that is in multiple markets all over the country. And it's so dumb. It's so incredibly dumb. These ridiculous shows of force are making things so much worse. I mean, this is basic hearts and minds crap that was learned decades ago, if not longer. 

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54 minutes ago, Texan4Auburn said:

They also are exhausted and tired which can lead to mistakes and frustrations. Family friend is Chicago PD. Resources are being diverted for things like 1000 people marching on Wrigley. So you are left with the Latin Kings for example, being the full time police in some neighborhoods at the moment for example.

Yes they are being attacked in some places, I have pointed that out. Innocents are being killed also along with your usual Chicago beefs.

Curfews have helped CPD with heavy protest areas like the Loop/Lakeshore the last couple days. Problem is the looting target areas are changing. For example the targets have now shifted to the western subs's... Naperville, Aurora etc.

Not all places need a curfew. Like Austin has not implemented one. They are basing it off events and may put one in for the weekend.

I agree with this and is why Trump is suggesting to Mayors of Chicago, Minneapolis, LA, NYC etc. to call in the National Guard to get this under control and the Mayors (at least NYC) still believe they can handle it.  The looting targets change because this is an organized attempt at domestic chaos. This is why the streets have to be *dominated* to let them (the rioters and looters) know the law will be restored.

When you start killing cops, it’s time to get it under control.

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Re militarization of the police force:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-happens-when-police-officers-see-protesters-as-the-enemy

  • Radley Balko, welcome to the "NewsHour." Thank you very much.

    So, we're talking about what you call the warrior cop. Are we seeing the blurring of the lines between the warrior, the soldier, and the traditional police officer?

  • Radley Balko:

    I think we are.

    And it's been a continuation of a trend that we have seen since about the 1980s. In this country, we have a long tradition of respecting the line between police and military, and with good reason. A soldier's job is to kill people and break things, to annihilate a foreign enemy.

    A police officer's job is to keep the peace and protect constitutional rights. When you blur the two, when you take police officers and you train them like soldiers and arm them and dress them like soldiers, and you tell them they're fighting a war, whether it's on crime or terrorism or drugs or Antifa — pick your villain — we shouldn't be surprised if we see some of the images that we have seen over the past few days, where police officers are treating the people they serve like — almost like an enemy combatant, rather than citizens with rights.

  • Nick Schifrin:

    And does it go both ways? Does arming police like soldiers change the psychology of how a police officer would act and the psychology of how a protester might interact with that police officer?

  • Radley Balko:

    Absolutely.

    For the book, I interviewed a number of police chiefs, both current and retired. And one thing that sort of came out of those interviews was that, when you respond to a protest with officers in riot gear, when you respond to protests with these kind of masked, nameless faces that kind of represent everything that the protesters are protesting against, not only do — are the protesters dehumanized in the eyes of the officers, that they're — because they have been sort of trained to think more like soldiers, the police officers themselves are dehumanized in the eyes of protesters.

    And it's important, I think, that police chiefs, heads of police agencies try to sort of humanize both sides. I think we saw, with the Atlanta police chief in a video, she sort of went out and talked to the protesters, asked what they were upset about, asked — just listened to them, just took some time to listen.

    And I think that can go a long way toward de-escalating some of the tension.

     

    Nick Schifrin:

    And we have seen police officers even take a knee with some of the protesters and, like you said, listen. And that will often defuse the situation.

    We have also seen some of the opposite tactics, quite aggressive tactics from police officers against protesters.

    Take a look at this scene in Philadelphia we saw of police firing tear gas at protesters who were trapped against an embankment. Police say the protesters were violent. The protesters say they were totally peaceful.

    Why do we see these kinds of incidents around the country, do you think?

    Radley Balko:

    Well, I mean, I think, on one side, people are angry.

    And on the other side, I think you have police departments that have increasingly been kind of not only taught to sort of think more like soldiers and approach their jobs like soldiers and take kind of a very us-vs.-them mentality to the job, but I think, during the Trump administration over the last three years, you have a president at the very top who has encouraged police brutality when speaking to police organizations, who has lashed out at the media.

    We have seen more attacks on journalists by police, direct attacks, knowing attacks, over the last few days than we have seen in the last several years.

    So, I do think these kinds of protests have happened, obviously, over and over and over again over our country's history. The reactions have often been sort of aggressive and militaristic.

    But I do think what we're seeing now is — seems particularly aggressive, and I also think the targeting of journalists is something — at least on this sort of scale, it's something that we haven't seen before.

    Nick Schifrin:

    Yes. Pro-media organizations say that there have been dozens, if not perhaps even more than 100 attacks, or police attacking journalists.

    We're also seeing the militarization of the police in terms of what they wear. And you mentioned the Trump administration making different rhetorical decisions. There's also a policy change.

    After Ferguson, the Obama administration curtailed some of the military equipment that police officers could purchase. Have those purchases grown since the Trump administration allowed more police departments to buy, purchase military equipment?

    Radley Balko:

    Yes, so the program you're talking about is the 1033 Program.

    And by the time the Obama administration rolled it back, it was almost kind of a symbolic move, because a lot of police groups were getting their — police agencies were getting their equipment from — through DHS and through other programs.

    But it was a kind of an important move symbolically. And one thing the Obama administration did that they got a lot of ridicule for, I think unfairly, is that they paid a lot attention to symbolism. They cut off the really sort of aggressive made-for-battlefield-type weapons.

    But they also said anything that was painted camouflage, for example, would have to be repainted if the police — domestic police organizations were going to use it.

    And, as I said, they got a lot of ridicule for that. I think it was actually a very smart decision, because it showed that they were aware of the mind-set problem, of the idea that we have to — cops need to see themselves as part of the communities they serve.

    They need to see themselves as there to — at a protest particularly, to protect the rights of the people who are protesting. And when you dress in camouflage, and you start thinking yourself — of yourself as a soldier and the people you're supposed to be protecting as the enemy, it's hard to act as a police officer is supposed to act.

    You tend to act more like we see a soldier on a battlefield.

    Nick Schifrin:

    Radley Balko, author of "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces," thank you very much.

    Radley Balko:

    My pleasure.

Edited by homersapien
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1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

Man, I watch Live PD every week and see worse than that each episode as "resisting" without force being used.  The spray needed to be a last resort option, not a knee-jerk reaction.  It was beyond excessive.

Live PD is a propaganda show for the police.  It shows they have heart, but if you berated them constantly with your free speech it sometimes stings. Not saying they were justified, just that you have to be conscious of how things are unfolding.  That guy was being a jerk and it seems they waited until he stepped off the curb in, what they perceived as a *threatening manner*, before moving forward.

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4 hours ago, alexava said:

It’s their job to enforce the law. If curfew is broken, the law is broken. That’s the whole point of a curfew. 

You can arrest someone without getting physical.

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22 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Re militarization of the police force:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-happens-when-police-officers-see-protesters-as-the-enemy

  • Radley Balko, welcome to the "NewsHour." Thank you very much.

    So, we're talking about what you call the warrior cop. Are we seeing the blurring of the lines between the warrior, the soldier, and the traditional police officer?

  • Radley Balko:

    I think we are.

    And it's been a continuation of a trend that we have seen since about the 1980s. In this country, we have a long tradition of respecting the line between police and military, and with good reason. A soldier's job is to kill people and break things, to annihilate a foreign enemy.

    A police officer's job is to keep the peace and protect constitutional rights. When you blur the two, when you take police officers and you train them like soldiers and arm them and dress them like soldiers, and you tell them they're fighting a war, whether it's on crime or terrorism or drugs or Antifa — pick your villain — we shouldn't be surprised if we see some of the images that we have seen over the past few days, where police officers are treating the people they serve like — almost like an enemy combatant, rather than citizens with rights.

  • Nick Schifrin:

    And does it go both ways? Does arming police like soldiers change the psychology of how a police officer would act and the psychology of how a protester might interact with that police officer?

  • Radley Balko:

    Absolutely.

    For the book, I interviewed a number of police chiefs, both current and retired. And one thing that sort of came out of those interviews was that, when you respond to a protest with officers in riot gear, when you respond to protests with these kind of masked, nameless faces that kind of represent everything that the protesters are protesting against, not only do — are the protesters dehumanized in the eyes of the officers, that they're — because they have been sort of trained to think more like soldiers, the police officers themselves are dehumanized in the eyes of protesters.

    And it's important, I think, that police chiefs, heads of police agencies try to sort of humanize both sides. I think we saw, with the Atlanta police chief in a video, she sort of went out and talked to the protesters, asked what they were upset about, asked — just listened to them, just took some time to listen.

    And I think that can go a long way toward de-escalating some of the tension.

     

    Nick Schifrin:

    And we have seen police officers even take a knee with some of the protesters and, like you said, listen. And that will often defuse the situation.

    We have also seen some of the opposite tactics, quite aggressive tactics from police officers against protesters.

    Take a look at this scene in Philadelphia we saw of police firing tear gas at protesters who were trapped against an embankment. Police say the protesters were violent. The protesters say they were totally peaceful.

    Why do we see these kinds of incidents around the country, do you think?

    Radley Balko:

    Well, I mean, I think, on one side, people are angry.

    And on the other side, I think you have police departments that have increasingly been kind of not only taught to sort of think more like soldiers and approach their jobs like soldiers and take kind of a very us-vs.-them mentality to the job, but I think, during the Trump administration over the last three years, you have a president at the very top who has encouraged police brutality when speaking to police organizations, who has lashed out at the media.

    We have seen more attacks on journalists by police, direct attacks, knowing attacks, over the last few days than we have seen in the last several years.

    So, I do think these kinds of protests have happened, obviously, over and over and over again over our country's history. The reactions have often been sort of aggressive and militaristic.

    But I do think what we're seeing now is — seems particularly aggressive, and I also think the targeting of journalists is something — at least on this sort of scale, it's something that we haven't seen before.

    Nick Schifrin:

    Yes. Pro-media organizations say that there have been dozens, if not perhaps even more than 100 attacks, or police attacking journalists.

    We're also seeing the militarization of the police in terms of what they wear. And you mentioned the Trump administration making different rhetorical decisions. There's also a policy change.

    After Ferguson, the Obama administration curtailed some of the military equipment that police officers could purchase. Have those purchases grown since the Trump administration allowed more police departments to buy, purchase military equipment?

    Radley Balko:

    Yes, so the program you're talking about is the 1033 Program.

    And by the time the Obama administration rolled it back, it was almost kind of a symbolic move, because a lot of police groups were getting their — police agencies were getting their equipment from — through DHS and through other programs.

    But it was a kind of an important move symbolically. And one thing the Obama administration did that they got a lot of ridicule for, I think unfairly, is that they paid a lot attention to symbolism. They cut off the really sort of aggressive made-for-battlefield-type weapons.

    But they also said anything that was painted camouflage, for example, would have to be repainted if the police — domestic police organizations were going to use it.

    And, as I said, they got a lot of ridicule for that. I think it was actually a very smart decision, because it showed that they were aware of the mind-set problem, of the idea that we have to — cops need to see themselves as part of the communities they serve.

    They need to see themselves as there to — at a protest particularly, to protect the rights of the people who are protesting. And when you dress in camouflage, and you start thinking yourself — of yourself as a soldier and the people you're supposed to be protecting as the enemy, it's hard to act as a police officer is supposed to act.

    You tend to act more like we see a soldier on a battlefield.

    Nick Schifrin:

    Radley Balko, author of "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces," thank you very much.

    Radley Balko:

    My pleasure.

You ever read the book? I remember reccing it to you a year or so ago. 

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1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

It's pretty clear that the rules governing their behavior have either changed or are being ignored. And that is in multiple markets all over the country. And it's so dumb. It's so incredibly dumb. These ridiculous shows of force are making things so much worse. I mean, this is basic hearts and minds crap that was learned decades ago, if not longer. 

Read a story recently of a Black college kid that was pulled over for weed.  The cop cut him a break and said "If you make the Dean's List next semester, this charge goes away completely."  Guess what happened?  Kid made the Dean's List.

That's what good community policing does.  Not everything requires the harshest possible interaction or outcome.

Edited by Brad_ATX
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1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

Both sides are on edge. It doesn't take much for a knee jerk reaction right now. 

I get that, but the side with guns, tasers, and pepper spray has to be the one with the ability to show restraint.  Especially when their job is to keep the peace.

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6 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I get that, but the side with guns, tasers, and pepper spray has to be the one with the ability to show restraint.  Especially when their job is to keep the peace.

True, but they are still human. I don't envy them and the situation they are in at the moment.

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12 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Read a story recently of a Black college kid that was pulled over for weed.  The cop cut him a break and said "If you make the Dean's List next semester, this charge goes away completely."  Guess what happened?  Kid made the Dean's List.

That's what good community policing does.  Not everything requires the harshest possible interaction or outcome.

That cop was a traitor in the "War on Drugs"!

Edited by homersapien
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1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Yes

One of the best breakdowns on contemporary policing in America I've read. 

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4 hours ago, homersapien said:

You can arrest someone without getting physical.

Not if they don't want to be arrested

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4 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Read a story recently of a Black college kid that was pulled over for weed.  The cop cut him a break and said "If you make the Dean's List next semester, this charge goes away completely."  Guess what happened?  Kid made the Dean's List.

That's what good community policing does.  Not everything requires the harshest possible interaction or outcome.

This kind of stuff happens a lot. Doesn’t get talked about. Most likely because the cop nor the kid wants it public. Some cops will dump a small amount out on the side of the road and give a quick “don’t let me catch you again “. Of course it depends on how much, the kids record and if he’s respectful. 

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14 minutes ago, alexava said:

This kind of stuff happens a lot. Doesn’t get talked about. Most likely because the cop nor the kid wants it public. Some cops will dump a small amount out on the side of the road and give a quick “don’t let me catch you again “. Of course it depends on how much, the kids record and if he’s respectful. 

Never got pulled over with drugs but have probably been let off with a warning a dozen times or more. And had some of those situations were serious sliding door moments.

My wife almost always gets a ticket. She's a Karen when she gets pulled over. Not me. Pull over immediately, window down, radio off, hands on wheel at ten and two, license in hand, lots of sirs and I'm sorry.

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5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Never got pulled over with drugs but have probably been let off with a warning a dozen times or more. And had some of those situations were serious sliding door moments.

My wife almost always gets a ticket. She's a Karen when she gets pulled over. Not me. Pull over immediately, window down, radio off, hands on wheel at ten and two, license in hand, lots of sirs and I'm sorry.

I do exactly as you. I have avoided many tickets. In my county I hardly ever get cited. My mom has been in law enforcement here for over 35 years. Way back in the day my last name is so unique and the town was so small they recognized me if they didn’t know me well. Now it has grown and through divorce and remarriage mom has a different name and the officers are much too young to associate the two. But that was a certain privilege I did enjoy. My wife never gets tickets. She doesn’t get stopped much but kinda sweet talks her way out. 

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As well as not envying law enforcement and their current situation, I sure don’t envy Drew Brees’ PR person or agent!! 

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2 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

As well as not envying law enforcement and their current situation, I sure don’t envy Drew Brees’ PR person or agent!! 

Tone deaf award nominee. 

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11 hours ago, bigbird said:

Not if they don't want to be arrested

That's what training - and back ups are for.

Regardless, the incidents that we are talking about didn't require excessive force, which is the point. :-\

Edited by homersapien

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10 hours ago, alexava said:

This kind of stuff happens a lot. Doesn’t get talked about. Most likely because the cop nor the kid wants it public. Some cops will dump a small amount out on the side of the road and give a quick “don’t let me catch you again “. Of course it depends on how much, the kids record and if he’s respectful. 

And some cops just keep it.  We used to say that cops had the best dope. ;)

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#unarmedmanwithaknife

#shootemintheleg.

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Can't tell you how many videos like this I've seen this week. I'm not sure how much worse cops could **** this up but I'm afraid we're going to find out.

This is happening everywhere. Worst week in this country in the 45 years I've been alive. And not because of anything other than sheer evil and stupidity on the part of those in power.

 

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