People who voted for Trump in 2016 on why they won't in 2020

[AUDub 11,131]

16 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

Enjoy your Trump is a DC insider fantasy.

I think DC insiders hate him. At the same time, his hiring practices speak for themselves. 

[savorytiger 182]

24 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

Enjoy your Trump is a DC insider fantasy.

To expand on what AUDub is saying, Trump is definitely not a part of the DC establishment, but he isn't a better alternative. Hopefully you'll agree that the influx of money into politics is an issue America is facing. This is money that, for the most part, isn't aimed at the wellbeing of Americans, but the wellbeing of whatever company or entity it comes from.

Trump isn't a way around that money. He directly represents the sources. You've just cut out the middleman.

[AUDub 11,131]

12 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

To expand on what AUDub is saying, Trump is definitely not a part of the DC establishment, but he isn't a better alternative. Hopefully you'll agree that the influx of money into politics is an issue America is facing. This is money that, for the most part, isn't aimed at the wellbeing of Americans, but the wellbeing of whatever company or entity it comes from.

Trump isn't a way around that money. He directly represents the sources. You've just cut out the middleman.

This. He hired a ton of Wall Street and industry insiders etc into sweet positions in his administration. 

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Just spend that day at the beach. It’ll all work out.

All We Need are some Tasty Waves, a Cool Buzz, and we all be fine.

Brought to you by Spicoli 2020.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

I'm thinking of voting for Trump. I'm looking to improve my Facepalm count round here.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

[IronMan70 3,277]

1 hour ago, savorytiger said:

To expand on what AUDub is saying, Trump is definitely not a part of the DC establishment, but he isn't a better alternative. Hopefully you'll agree that the influx of money into politics is an issue America is facing. This is money that, for the most part, isn't aimed at the wellbeing of Americans, but the wellbeing of whatever company or entity it comes from.

Trump isn't a way around that money. He directly represents the sources. You've just cut out the middleman.

Trump didn't create the money in politics although he did beat Hillary's $1.5 billion with about half of that and much of it was his own. The DC establishment created this and Biden has been right there involved in it for almost 5 decades. I do agree that there is way too much money in DC politics. Including but not limited to the cost of campaigns, lobbyist money to influence politicians, "foundations" of elected officials used as conduits and the high cost of media buys. The thing is the DC establishment loves every bit of the system they have created and it's all corrupt. But putting in another DC insider won't change anything, it will only make it worse. Meanwhile POTUS gives away his 400K salary and pushes back against that insufferable corrupt DC crowd.

[AUDub 11,131]

1 hour ago, IronMan70 said:

Meanwhile POTUS gives away his 400K salary...

Holy crap lol. President gives up what amounts to pennies on the dollar given his wealth and that's a virtue? At the same time, making us taxpayers spend millions bankrolling trips to his personal properties. Jeez. 

1 hour ago, IronMan70 said:

...and pushes back against that insufferable corrupt DC crowd.

He courts the graft whether you realize it or not. 

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, IronMan70 said:

Trump didn't create the money in politics although he did beat Hillary's $1.5 billion with about half of that and much of it was his own. The DC establishment created this and Biden has been right there involved in it for almost 5 decades. I do agree that there is way too much money in DC politics. Including but not limited to the cost of campaigns, lobbyist money to influence politicians, "foundations" of elected officials used as conduits and the high cost of media buys. The thing is the DC establishment loves every bit of the system they have created and it's all corrupt. But putting in another DC insider won't change anything, it will only make it worse. Meanwhile POTUS gives away his 400K salary and pushes back against that insufferable corrupt DC crowd.

Agreed that Trump didn't create a lot of the major issues plaguing us, but he's not a solution. I think a big difference in how Trump supporters see him vs. those who don't is how we view his goals and motivations. I see him as an extremely selfish person who will put his personal gains over the country. So maybe he'll do something that helps in a way (the executive order on police reforms was a small step in the right direction), but I always wonder how that action benefits him, and when he'll next do something that hurts the country to his own benefit (asking China to keep him in office as a non verified example). Once you believe something like that about a person, they're pretty close to unredeemable. Especially if I hate every other part of his personality...

And yes, I also believe the 400k salary is very little compared to other ways he's benefitting from the presidency.

[TexasTiger 12,800]

5 hours ago, AUDub said:

Holy crap lol. President gives up what amounts to pennies on the dollar given his wealth and that's a virtue? At the same time, making us taxpayers spend millions bankrolling trips to his personal properties. Jeez. 

He courts the graft whether you realize it or not. 

He funnels more cash to his interests than he gives up by a long shot. The myth of the selfless Trump. 🙄😂

[AUDub 11,131]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

He funnels more cash to his interests than he gives up by a long shot. The myth of the selfless Trump. 🙄😂

He's making money off of us hand over fist. Can't believe there are people for whom that isn't obvious. 

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

7 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

I think I stumbled upon another potential write in candidate with great slogan:

[aubiefifty 16,695]

13 hours ago, Texan4Auburn said:

All We Need are some Tasty Waves, a Cool Buzz, and we all be fine.

Brought to you by Spicoli 2020.

i always wanted to go to muschogee and smoke one so i could say one person did........lol.

[IronMan70 3,277]

17 hours ago, savorytiger said:

Agreed that Trump didn't create a lot of the major issues plaguing us, but he's not a solution. I think a big difference in how Trump supporters see him vs. those who don't is how we view his goals and motivations. I see him as an extremely selfish person who will put his personal gains over the country. So maybe he'll do something that helps in a way (the executive order on police reforms was a small step in the right direction), but I always wonder how that action benefits him, and when he'll next do something that hurts the country to his own benefit (asking China to keep him in office as a non verified example). Once you believe something like that about a person, they're pretty close to unredeemable. Especially if I hate every other part of his personality...

And yes, I also believe the 400k salary is very little compared to other ways he's benefitting from the presidency.

Without addressing some of the faulty conclusions in the rest of your post, let me just ask you a question on your first sentence. You agree "that Trump didn't create a lot of the major issues plaguing us." Your solution is to have someone in office who is the epitome of the DC establishment that created these problems, Joe Biden ?

[IronMan70 3,277]

13 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

He funnels more cash to his interests than he gives up by a long shot. The myth of the selfless Trump. 🙄😂

Do tell. Is the proof of this found in the same safe where they keep the proof that POTUS was a Russian spy ? Trump isn't beholden to the establishment. He had already created his wealth before he ran for President so he is obviously motivated by something more than money. I wonder what that is ? His love of country, which goes back decades, is the reason he does this.

[savorytiger 182]

4 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

Without addressing some of the faulty conclusions in the rest of your post, let me just ask you a question on your first sentence. You agree "that Trump didn't create a lot of the major issues plaguing us." Your solution is to have someone in office who is the epitome of the DC establishment that created these problems, Joe Biden ?

Biden isn't a solution to those issues. He's a resigned stopgap to an actual solution, because the alternative is Trump. Maybe neither one is going to step up and address money in politics, but at least in the mean time we'll have someone who can either handle a crisis, or wouldn't actively work against experts assigned to deal with a crisis. And while the DC establishment is currently a broken mess, I feel like the public has a bigger chance at influencing it than it has at changing Trump.

The rest of my post was mostly trying to give you a view a liberal point of view just as a frame of reference. It acknowledges an emotional reaction, which isn't always going to be completely logical, but it's a belief that's been reinforced over the last 4 years by Trump's actions. I didn't bring it up to try to convince you of anything because that seems unlikely. Feel free to poke all you want at it though.

[savorytiger 182]

3 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

Do tell. Is the proof of this found in the same safe where they keep the proof that POTUS was a Russian spy ? Trump isn't beholden to the establishment. He had already created his wealth before he ran for President so he is obviously motivated by something more than money. I wonder what that is ? His love of country, which goes back decades, is the reason he does this.

Can you give evidence of his "love of country".

[IronMan70 3,277]

2 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

Biden isn't a solution to those issues. He's a resigned stopgap to an actual solution, because the alternative is Trump. Maybe neither one is going to step up and address money in politics, but at least in the mean time we'll have someone who can either handle a crisis, or wouldn't actively work against experts assigned to deal with a crisis. And while the DC establishment is currently a broken mess, I feel like the public has a bigger chance at influencing it than it has at changing Trump.

The rest of my post was mostly trying to give you a view a liberal point of view just as a frame of reference. It acknowledges an emotional reaction, which isn't always going to be completely logical, but it's a belief that's been reinforced over the last 4 years by Trump's actions. I didn't bring it up to try to convince you of anything because that seems unlikely. Feel free to poke all you want at it though.

You seem like the type that can have an honest, decent discussion, so no poking here. I was just speaking to the logic of doing the same thing but thinking you will get a different result. My experience tells me a placeholder can't or won't do that. That's why I choose to push back against the establishment with a guy who isn't "one of them" and doesn't need their money. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, IronMan70 said:

Do tell. Is the proof of this found in the same safe where they keep the proof that POTUS was a Russian spy ? Trump isn't beholden to the establishment. He had already created his wealth before he ran for President so he is obviously motivated by something more than money. I wonder what that is ? His love of country, which goes back decades, is the reason he does this.

We've collectively spent tens of millions of dollars housing his staff and security at Trump's resorts over the last 3 1/2 years.  Trump's salary that he's given up is $400k per year.

Do the math.

[IronMan70 3,277]

1 hour ago, savorytiger said:

Can you give evidence of his "love of country".

Sure, you mean other than what he has said as POTUS or what FLOTUS has said about this topic. Here are a couple of references I had in my bookmark file. 

The first is an article from NPR which has examples, videos included, going back to 1988. You'll notice he has been of saying the same things about America first and love of country for a long time.

https://www.npr.org/2017/01/20/510680463/donald-trumps-been-saying-the-same-thing-for-30-years

 

Second is an article which speaks directly to the issue of his patriotism.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/07/patriotism_the_secret_of_trumps_success.html

 

Keep in mind that there will be scores of people trying to tear this down. You see this on issues as obvious as the fact that Trump is an outsider, they will try to say he is DC establishment or on Trump's love of country, saying it's fake. 

[IronMan70 3,277]

30 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

We've collectively spent tens of millions of dollars housing his staff and security at Trump's resorts over the last 3 1/2 years.  Trump's salary that he's given up is $400k per year.

Do the math.

He is the first to pay anything. All Presidents have taken vacations, played golf, relaxed and they should. I didn't fault them then or him now for that. He just happens to own some of the golf courses and they can shut them down to the public when he is there. It probably has as much to do with security as anything and probably costs less than it would somewhere else.

But, in addition to his $400K there is also the $180K x 2 that Ivanka and Kushner give up as Advisors to the President. So the family gives up at least $760K, in addition to the money they are forgoing in business and is a sizable amount, to do this. The point is that he and the family are not doing this for money.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

19 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

He is the first to pay anything. All Presidents have taken vacations, played golf, relaxed and they should. I didn't fault them then or him now for that. He just happens to own some of the golf courses and they can shut them down to the public when he is there. It probably has as much to do with security as anything and probably costs less than it would somewhere else.

But, in addition to his $400K there is also the $180K x 2 that Ivanka and Kushner give up as Advisors to the President. So the family gives up at least $760K, in addition to the money they are forgoing in business and is a sizable amount, to do this. The point is that he and the family are not doing this for money.

I don't fault him for playing golf sometimes or even taking the occasional vacation.  I fault him for spending 270 days (and counting) at his resorts during his presidency, costing us untold amounts of money.  That money goes directly to his coffers.  Think about it for a second.  A full 9 months of his 40 month presidency have been spent at resorts.  That's insane.

He has the same option Obama had: play golf at Andrews AFB.  It costs far less, doesn't take crazy amounts of security, can be reached by car, etc ,etc.  This idea that he's President for some magnanimous reason is just pure fantasy.

[ShocksMyBrain 9,362]

17 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

He is the first to pay anything. All Presidents have taken vacations, played golf, relaxed and they should. I didn't fault them then or him now for that. He just happens to own some of the golf courses and they can shut them down to the public when he is there. It probably has as much to do with security as anything and probably costs less than it would somewhere else.

But, in addition to his $400K there is also the $180K x 2 that Ivanka and Kushner give up as Advisors to the President. So the family gives up at least $760K, in addition to the money they are forgoing in business and is a sizable amount, to do this. The point is that he and the family are not doing this for money.

Millions>$400k. 

[savorytiger 182]

2 hours ago, IronMan70 said:

You seem like the type that can have an honest, decent discussion, so no poking here. I was just speaking to the logic of doing the same thing but thinking you will get a different result. My experience tells me a placeholder can't or won't do that. That's why I choose to push back against the establishment with a guy who isn't "one of them" and doesn't need their money. 

I'm not going to be offended for being called out for faulty logic (or I try not to be). I've been wrong enough in the past to know I'm not infallible. But again, the placeholder isn't to create a new result. 

53 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

Sure, you mean other than what he has said as POTUS or what FLOTUS has said about this topic. Here are a couple of references I had in my bookmark file. 

The first is an article from NPR which has examples, videos included, going back to 1988. You'll notice he has been of saying the same things about America first and love of country for a long time.

https://www.npr.org/2017/01/20/510680463/donald-trumps-been-saying-the-same-thing-for-30-years

 

Second is an article which speaks directly to the issue of his patriotism.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/07/patriotism_the_secret_of_trumps_success.html

 

Keep in mind that there will be scores of people trying to tear this down. You see this on issues as obvious as the fact that Trump is an outsider, they will try to say he is DC establishment or on Trump's love of country, saying it's fake. 

I haven't read the two links fully, but skimmed them.

The NPR article says that Trump's rhetoric hasn't changed, but whether or not those words are patriotic is up to debate. For example, something like "America first" is fine and all, but a lot of those actions simply create a zero sum game out of global politics. Why did Trump have to offer to buy a German company for exclusive access when they were making strides at a coronavirus vaccine? Why couldn't we work with the German government in getting it to the US? Oh yeah, our political captical with Germany is completely shot. From a "power" perspective, there's power in being the guy at a table of friends who can pay more than their fair share of the bill and will do it just for the good of the group. You also can't pay the bill completely every time. You have to find the right balance in the middle.

The second link...I think we're going to have to agree to disagree there. There's nothing good to say about it. Every other sentence gives off Dear Leader vibes...

[TexasTiger 12,800]

4 hours ago, IronMan70 said:

Do tell. Is the proof of this found in the same safe where they keep the proof that POTUS was a Russian spy ? Trump isn't beholden to the establishment. He had already created his wealth before he ran for President so he is obviously motivated by something more than money. I wonder what that is ? His love of country, which goes back decades, is the reason he does this.

The proof’s public record, genius. He’s soooo wealthy he has to borrow money from shady oligarchs and ethically challenged foreign banks. We’ve never had a more compromised President. But you keep worshipping your cult leader. He’s amazing!