The Key to Defeating COVID-19 Already Exists. We Need to Start Using It

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[AUDub 11,147]

41 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Evidence can mean different things to different people. I’m not expecting you to accept people I’ve known most of my life as evidence for you. However, I accept their testimonies as evidence as far as I’m concerned. I really don’t care what you want to accept as evidence for you. 

That's not how it works, man, especially in a field as fraught as medicine. s***, I don't get to whip out my 510k approval on a basis so flimsy as that.

And these standards exist for a reason. A **** up with what I do now, no matter how well meaning, can (and has) resulted in death. 

[AUDub 11,147]

36 minutes ago, Grumps said:

So you get to decide what is BS. I see.

I don't know what's happened to you with this silly streak you're on lately, Grumps,  but I tire of it. Done being nice to you about it.

I have the professional understanding with regard to medicine and medical practice that help me to spot bull**** here. You would do well to sit down, shut the hell up and listen before you castigate me.

36 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Do you have any proof SocialCircle does a single thing as a school board member that is an embarassment? Nope. Pure BS.

He argues like a damned moron for whom even basic logic is an afterthought. He's a conspiracy theorist, to boot. 

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Don't you know that "Bogging down the forum with bull**** does more damage than any insult..."?

Well, you are a dumbass.

I would use the phrase "insulting our collective intelligence," but it's becoming increasingly apparent you do not meet the baseline for having said intelligence insulted.

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Truly pathetic. I don't know enough about what you being a clinical eng. means so I will just pretend to be impressed, but I won't bash your personal life if I disagree with you, even with your permission. 

I have been very clear with regard to what I do for a living for just that reason, because I intend to use my professional credentials and experience to lend my arguments credibility.

So you don't have to take my word for it, and are perfectly welcome to shred me on that basis if I do screw up.

But I seriously doubt you will be given that opportunity

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

I call BS to your first sentence. Calling names and bashing the personal life of a member of this forum is disgusting. Since you seem to be proud of yourself I will be embarrassed for you.

I'm all for trying to engage people as much as possible in a civil manner, but when people prove after multiple attempts at reasonable discussion that they'd rather give half-assed arguments, peddle mindless drivel dressed up as real science, and refuse to even pretend to understand how to form a decent argument not chock full of logical fallacies a junior in high school learns to avoid, they deserve the blasting they get by people who actually do like to have real discussion.

[Grumps 3,704]

8 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I don't know what's happened to you with this silly streak you're on lately, Grumps,  but I tire of it. Done being nice to you about it.

I have the professional understanding with regard to medicine and medical practice that help me to spot bull**** here. You would do well to sit down, shut the hell up and listen before you castigate me.

He argues like a damned moron for whom even basic logic is an afterthought. He's a conspiracy theorist, to boot. 

Well, you are a dumbass.

I would use the phrase "insulting our collective intelligence," but it's becoming increasingly apparent you do not meet the baseline for having said intelligence insulted.

I have been very clear with regard to what I do for a living for just that reason, because I intend to use my professional credentials and experience to lend my arguments credibility.

So you don't have to take my word for it, and are perfectly welcome to shred me on that basis if I do screw up.

But I seriously doubt you will be given that opportunity

Thank you for being so nice to me in the past! I will be very careful about what I post from now on so that I don't incur your wrath! "dumbass" was a great start for you. The "ass" part is slightly cutting, but it still leaves you some room to go much harder lately if I say something you don't agree with. I see you are very experienced at name-calling. Your education has done wonders for you.

Forgive me for not remembering how incredibly credentialed and experienced you are .  If I have permission to shred you then maybe you should repeat them.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

58 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Evidence can mean different things to different people. I’m not expecting you to accept people I’ve known most of my life as evidence for you. However, I accept their testimonies as evidence as far as I’m concerned. I really don’t care what you want to accept as evidence for you. 

If we're having a discussion over what the greatest NBA team of all time is or whether Chicago deep dish or NY-style pizza is the best, then sure, "evidence can mean different things to different people."

In science, that's utter horse***t and you should know better.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

52 minutes ago, Grumps said:

So you get to decide what is BS. I see.

No, the science and a basic understanding of logical argument formation do.

[SocialCircle 570]

29 minutes ago, AUDub said:

That's not how it works, man, especially in a field as fraught as medicine. s***, I don't get to whip out my 510k approval on a basis so flimsy as that.

And these standards exist for a a reason. A **** up with what I do now, no matter how well meaning, can (and has) resulted in death. 

You are speaking (very unprofessionally and insultingly at times) from your perspective as it relates to your work. I get that and understand that. There is another perspective that isn’t necessarily wrong and many doctors also have this same perspective (and many don’t as well). The perspective is their job is to save lives and if they have actually used a treatment that has saved numerous lives when they have seen many people die.....well they ain’t waiting to see if it is “proven” because seeing is believing. There is nothing wrong with this perspective. 

[Grumps 3,704]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

I'm all for trying to engage people as much as possible in a civil manner, but when people prove after multiple attempts at reasonable discussion that they'd rather give half-assed arguments, peddle mindless drivel dressed up as real science, and refuse to even pretend to understand how to form a decent argument not chock full of logical fallacies a junior in high school learns to avoid, they deserve the blasting they get by people who actually do like to have real discussion.

So you don't mind us bashing people about their personal lives even though we don't know them in their personal lives. Oh wait, I knew that already. Why don't you just go ahead and delete all of the posts you don't agree with? Or ban everyone you don't agree with? You can make this forum great again!

[TitanTiger 20,472]

2 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Thank you for being so nice to me in the past! I will be very careful about what I post from now on so that I don't incur your wrath! "dumbass" was a great start for you. The "ass" part is slightly cutting, but it still leaves you some room to go much harder lately if I say something you don't agree with. I see you are very experienced at name-calling. Your education has done wonders for you.

Forgive me for not remembering how incredibly credentialed and experienced you are .  If I have permission to shred you then maybe you should repeat them.

You choose some really odd times to tone police.  There have been some times where perhaps you piping up and saying something would be the right call because someone is getting hammered unfairly and wasn't given much of a chance before getting pounced on.

This isn't one of those times.

[AUDub 11,147]

Just now, Grumps said:

Thank you for being so nice to me in the past! I will be very careful about what I post from now on so that I don't incur your wrath! "dumbass" was a great start for you. The "ass" part is slightly cutting, but it still leaves you some room to go much harder lately if I say something you don't agree with. I see you are very experienced at name-calling. Your education has done wonders for you..

I have been respectful because there's nothing wrong with ignorance, and only an a**hole would say there was. Now that it's becoming clear you're arguing in bad faith, I will drop that pretense. 

Just now, Grumps said:

Forgive me for not remembering how incredibly credentialed and experienced you are .  If I have permission to shred you then maybe you should repeat them.

All you need to remember is that "Dub is medical guy." Not too complex. If I jack up medicine and the like, again, have at me lol. 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, Grumps said:

So you don't mind us bashing people about their personal lives even though we don't know them in their personal lives. Oh wait, I knew that already. Why don't you just go ahead and delete all of the posts you don't agree with? Or ban everyone you don't agree with? You can make this forum great again!

The next time I just delete posts simply or disagreeing with them or banning people I don't agree with will literally be the first.  There are people here that I have disagreed with - sometimes very heatedly - for several years who've never even come close to be banned or having their posts altered by so much as a comma.  If someone gets a post deleted or they get booted, it wasn't over mere disagreement.

But if you think I'm so unfair and don't like how I handle things here, you know where the door is.  Nobody's got a gun to your head demanding you participate.

[Grumps 3,704]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You choose some really odd times to tone police.  There have been some times where perhaps you piping up and saying something would be the right call because someone is getting hammered unfairly and wasn't given much of a chance before getting pounced on.

This isn't one of those times.

I'm odd. Get over it. There should be no place here for ANYONE to go after someone's personal life. But this isn't my forum is it?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Just now, Grumps said:

I'm odd. Get over it. There should be no place here for ANYONE to go after someone's personal life. But this isn't my forum is it?

You get over it.  It was a comment about a job or position someone holds here and how the dumb things they say relate to that.  Quit acting like we posted his name, address, office phone number, and photos of his wife and family.

Like Dub said, he works in the medical field.  If Dub says something monumentally stupid about medicine, he deserves to get blasted about it.

[SocialCircle 570]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

If we're having a discussion over what the greatest NBA team of all time is or whether Chicago deep dish or NY-style pizza is the best, then sure, "evidence can mean different things to different people."

In science, that's utter horse***t and you should know better.

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

So a doctor who has been practicing for years reads about and studies a medicine regiment that some other doctors say has worked for them. They have seen people die from this illness. They try it on numerous people who were similar to the people they previously saw die. They continue to use this treatment and it continues to work. These doctors consider this evidence enough for them to continue using this treatment in order to save lives. It is true and valid based on their own personal treatment and experience. 

[Grumps 3,704]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The next time I just delete posts simply or disagreeing with them or banning people I don't agree with will literally be the first.  There are people here that I have disagreed with - sometimes very heatedly - for several years who've never even come close to be banned or having their posts altered by so much as a comma.  If someone gets a post deleted or they get booted, it wasn't over mere disagreement.

But if you think I'm so unfair and don't like how I handle things here, you know where the door is.  Nobody's got a gun to your head demanding you participate.

I apologize if you think I meant that you had been deleting posts that you don't agree with. That is not what I meant. What I intended to say is that if you or AUDub or me or anyone else gets to decide what is BS for the forum then the next step would be to delete the posts that we think are BS or prevent the BS posters from participating.

I completely disagree with the content of SocialCircle's posts but I think he/she has every right to post his/her beliefs without being attacked regarding his/her duty as a school board member.

[SocialCircle 570]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You get over it.  It was a comment about a job or position someone holds here and how the dumb things they say relate to that.  Quit acting like we posted his name, address, office phone number, and photos of his wife and family.

Like Dub said, he works in the medical field.  If Dub says something monumentally stupid about medicine, he deserves to get blasted about it.

You mean Like when he said there is no proven treatment for Covid-19? 

[Grumps 3,704]

10 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I have been respectful because there's nothing wrong with ignorance, and only an a**hole would say there was. Now that it's becoming clear you're arguing in bad faith, I will drop that pretense. 

All you need to remember is that "Dub is medical guy." Not too complex. If I jack up medicine and the like, again, have at me lol. 

Hey medical guy, how many conditions do you know of where billions is spent to test for a condition that has no treatment and only has a 1% chance to kill you?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Thanks Mr. Dictionary for that elementary explanation.

Evidence in medical and scientific inquiry has a bit more of a stringent and detailed definition.

 

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

So a doctor who has been practicing for years reads about and studies a medicine regiment that some other doctors say has worked for them. They have seen people die from this illness. They try it on numerous people who were similar to the people they previously saw die. They continue to use this treatment and it continues to work. These doctors consider this evidence enough for them to continue using this treatment in order to save lives. It is true and valid based on their own personal treatment and experience. 

It's called anecdote.  There's nothing wrong with anecdotes as far as they go.  They are often the impetus to get scientists and researchers to delve deeper into a matter and investigate it.  It may even eventually lead to a clinical study/trial that is properly structured to avoid intentional or unintentional bias, manipulation, placebo effect and so on.  The results of a well structured study/trial like this will be scientific evidence.

The anecdotes that may have led to studying it further are still just anecdotes.  Sometime the anecdotes end up being proven out by the evidence.  Often they do not.  But either way, they still are not the evidence.

[AUDub 11,147]

2 minutes ago, Grumps said:

I apologize if you think I meant that you had been deleting posts that you don't agree with. That is not what I meant. What I intended to say is that if you or AUDub or me or anyone else gets to decide what is BS for the forum then the next step would be to delete the posts that we think are BS or prevent the BS posters from participating.

I completely disagree with the content of SocialCircle's posts but I think he/she has every right to post his/her beliefs without being attacked regarding his/her duty as a school board member.

I think being able to blast nonsense is an important part of discussion in an online forum such as this. In that regard, I'd prefer Social's posts stay up. It's an important part of people being able to decide for themselves.

At the same time, your tone trolling is getting older by the second, Grumps. Social has earned his blasting here. Pay attention. I'm hard at work lol. 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

4 minutes ago, Grumps said:

I apologize if you think I meant that you had been deleting posts that you don't agree with. That is not what I meant. What I intended to say is that if you or AUDub or me or anyone else gets to decide what is BS for the forum then the next step would be to delete the posts that we think are BS or prevent the BS posters from participating.

I completely disagree with the content of SocialCircle's posts but I think he/she has every right to post his/her beliefs without being attacked regarding his/her duty as a school board member.

Of course SocialCircle has the right to post their beliefs.  And when he posts ridiculous stuff and refuses to grasp even the most basic points of logical argumentation, even after having them patiently explained to him for a good while, he better cinch up the big boy underpants because he's gonna get blasted for it.  

[Grumps 3,704]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

Of course SocialCircle has the right to post their beliefs.  And when he posts ridiculous stuff and refuses to grasp even the most basic points of logical argumentation, even after having them patiently explained to him for a good while, he better cinch up the big boy underpants because he's gonna get blasted for it.  

Fair enough. We disagree.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

8 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Hey medical guy, how many conditions do you know of where billions is spent to test for a condition that has no treatment and only has a 1% chance to kill you?

First, it's not just deaths that matter here.  For everyone it actually kills, it's putting many many more in ICUs, taking up beds and ventilators and staff attention from patients with other serious conditions.  For many of those who survive, it is starting to show lingering and perhaps permanent ongoing serious health issues.

Also, we've spent billions over the years on flu vaccines and it only has about at 0.1% chance of killing you.  The measles has about a 0.2% chance.  Billions are spent by the pharmaceutical industry every single year on conditions that aren't even deadly - they just cause discomfort, or inconvenience, or hamper people being able to do all the things they'd like to do and be more independent.  Since when do we try to use such a measuring stick to decide whether the expenditure is worthwhile?

This is a poor argument and I expect better from you.

[SocialCircle 570]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Of course SocialCircle has the right to post their beliefs.  And when he posts ridiculous stuff and refuses to grasp even the most basic points of logical argumentation, even after having them patiently explained to him for a good while, he better cinch up the big boy underpants because he's gonna get blasted for it.  

I rather enjoy this whipping I’m receiving. It would be illogical to not believe doctors I’ve known most of my life about their actual results as it relates to treating actual patients who have Covid-19. 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

4 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I rather enjoy this whipping I’m receiving. It would be illogical to not believe doctors I’ve known most of my life about their actual results as it relates to treating actual patients who have Covid-19. 

It would be illogical not to take what they are telling you and to have some hope in a certain course of treatment.  And it would be illogical to think that what they've told you doesn't warrant deeper investigation in a controlled study.

Your problem is that you don't stop there.