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i am putting this post in politics instead of smack talk to get some views on abortion.


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i do not care for abortion as in my personal opinion it has been used for birth control. but i understand that many people like myself fear that conceding ones right to abortion other than medical emergencies and rape is a huge gamble. once you give up those rights what is next? does it mean rape victims have to carry to term now? what are the downsides of this? does this open the door for some who might lose their baby face criminal charges if they make a mistake? i am dead serious here and i do not plan to debate anything but i want to listen to both sides.

   and what are the positives if abortion is outlawed? i understand people will say no more murders of babies but i would like someone to explain further. thousands of children go hungry every single day in this and in Alabama. would the right be prepared to enact a bill to make sure these kids do not go hungry or fall through the cracks? will you put your money where your mouth is and step up for kids if it happens? would the government do this?

   also i am going to throw this out there and know absolutely nothing about it. but i have seen headlines about people freezing embryos that have been injected with semen they claim is life and yet the  destruction rate is way out there compared to abortions? i might have some points screwed up here and i apologize. but i read a few months back that to outlaw one and not the other is hypocrisy to the extreme.

and also is there any wiggle room for the parties to come together to try and deal with this objectively? again i do not want to hear political talking points but folks own views on how we can get past this. and titan i know this is mostly your baby so i ask that you help keeping this thread from turning hateful and petty. i am a lib willing to listen honestly. i also admit i do not trust the gop to keep their word and not make the situation worse. again i have no answers other than distrust from politicians. my thoughts are is it just women's rights? is there something that can be done that can satisfy both parties? i will not debate any points in this thread but i will try to listen with an open heart. i did nnnot post this in smack for a reason and i hope to get a better understanding than political talking points.

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Watching this thread full of men discuss abortion.

This is always a difficult and controversial topic. There is validity to a woman feeling that it is her body and should be her choice but the counter argument is that yes people should be able to make

That's another aspect that needs reform. There are so many families that want to adopt but can't afford it and in no way should it take years to complete the process.

While I don't agree on abortion itself. As a conservative that believes in personal rights......it's not my body, not my right to dictate to someone in a special circumstance what they can and cannot do. So, I am against abortion but support choice. I also don't judge people just because I am against it. They have to deal with that themselves if they feel they made the right decision. 

 

My biggest pet peeve about conservatives is that most seem to want to scream from the rooftop about personal rights and government interference except this topic. 

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So my personal feeling is that I really, really don't care about this topic.  It just doesn't register as a consideration for me when I vote.  For me, it's been settled law for 50 years and I'm over it being relitigated ad-naseum.

Would I support an abortion if my wife got pregnant?  Hard to say.  I have no desire for kids (thus the vasectomy), but if she was pregnant, that doesn't mean I wouldn't want her to keep it.  Do I think that the embryo is more important than my marriage or my wife's health?  Absolutely not.  Call me callous or cold hearted, but it's my truth.

As for the political side, I'd be OK with some restrictions on abortion if there were also better access to women's healthcare overall and sexual education.  Specifically on sexual education, unwanted pregnancies dramatically went down when people were given easy access to information and contraceptives.

People are going to have sex.  This is just human nature.  So instead of trying to completely legislate abortion out of the deal, how about heading the problem off at the beginning by giving folks easier ways to stop conception?  It's cheaper, easier, and healthier for all.

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i agree with the sex education brad. refusing that and condoms have always been a sore spot for me. thanks for replying.

 

i am asking the right to show me enough to change my mind or point out something i might have missed. come on guys. i know it is a touchy subject but i would love to know more.

and what about the folks that say birth control is wrong? just trying to have an honest convo here as i am not sure if there has been an honest debate i have read since i have been here. if birth control saves lives why would it be a bad thing? i am making a fair and honest effort to see the viewpoints from across the aisle but i still welcome both sides. i would ask titan to ban me from all the pol boards if i do not keep my word.

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3 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

While I don't agree on abortion itself. As a conservative that believes in personal rights......it's not my body, not my right to dictate to someone in a special circumstance what they can and cannot do. So, I am against abortion but support choice. I also don't judge people just because I am against it. They have to deal with that themselves if they feel they made the right decision. 

 

My biggest pet peeve about conservatives is that most seem to want to scream from the rooftop about personal rights and government interference except this topic. 

I think the argument here is your personal freedom and liberty stop when it infringes and someone else's (in this case the babies).  

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@aubiefifty In my view - Regardless of whether one thinks that allowing abortion is a good or bad idea, its an issue that the U.S. Constitution says nothing about; and one that should be left to democratic choice (the people, persuading their fellow neighbors). In fact, it used to be an issue left to democratic choice: some states (20 in number) allowed it - in one way or another - while other states did not. However, in 1973, a few unelected lawyers dressed in black took that issue away from the people, and said "no state can prohibit it." 

Do I ever think Roe v. Wade will be overturned? No. But if it was overturned, it would not "ban abortion." The issue would be kicked backed to the states, into the hands of their citizens.  

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14 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

While I don't agree on abortion itself. As a conservative that believes in personal rights......it's not my body, not my right to dictate to someone in a special circumstance what they can and cannot do. So, I am against abortion but support choice. I also don't judge people just because I am against it. They have to deal with that themselves if they feel they made the right decision. 

While I agree almost entirely with this view, I also agree with Fifty that it shouldn't be allowed to be a form of BC. 

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13 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

what about the folks that say birth control is wrong?

That's an interesting situation. In one of my senior classes, I had to choose an controversial topic and present an hour long seminar over it.  I chose birth control as my topic, specifically oral contraceptives.  The majority of people are completely in support of this form minus a few select religious groups.

For the most part, there are two types of oral BC. One type that blocks fertilization and one type that block implantation. During my research, I found the majority of people I surveyed didn't realize that there were two different mechanisms. Depending on one's interpretation of when life begins(conception, development of a heart, 14wks, ex utero, et al) that is a major difference and it led to many shocked woman.

I spoke with a young married woman (26) that was a strong anti-abortion supporter. She believed that life began at conception. She revealed that she had been taking one of the oral BC that blocked implantation since she was 17. She broke down hysterically at the thought that she could have "aborted" X number of embryos over her 9 years of taking it.  

 

With the advances in medicine and the availability of newer medical technology and treatments, life is being sustained for a much greater length of time than has ever previously been possible. Combine that with limited or absence of contraception and we would be pushing India and China as population leaders. It's not sustainable. Contraception is vitally important, which mean access, education, and support is equally important.  That said, no one would support euthanizing octogenarians in order to control the population, so why should they support the termination of the in uterine life?

 

 

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15 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

also i am going to throw this out there and know absolutely nothing about it. but i have seen headlines about people freezing embryos that have been injected with semen they claim is life and yet the  destruction rate is way out there compared to abortions? i might have some points screwed up here and i apologize. but i read a few months back that to outlaw one and not the other is hypocrisy to the extreme.

Here's a good article if you are interested.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-embryos-survive-th/

 

But your question brings up another area of contention, using embryos stem cells.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672894/#:~:text=However%2C developing stem-cell science,have the same developmental potential.

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@aubiefifty, I struggle with the idea of abortion because I believe life does begin at conception.

In biology, there are what's called the 5 characteristics of life. They are:

1. All living things are made of cells

2. use energy

3. Respond to stimuli

4. grow and reproduce

5. maintain homeostasis.

In my embryology classes in college and my work in gene therapy prior to James, we fertilized many different species of eggs for research. In doing so, when I  watched under the microscope, as soon as  the sperm was introduced into the egg, every single one of those characteristics mentioned above began. So, If scientist use those characteristics above to determine if something is alive or not for everything else on the planet, why don't they consider them when it comes to determining human life?

 

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3 hours ago, bigbird said:

That's an interesting situation. In one of my senior classes, I had to choose an controversial topic and present an hour long seminar over it.  I chose birth control as my topic, specifically oral contraceptives.  The majority of people are completely in support of this form minus a few select religious groups.

For the most part, there are two types of oral BC. One type that blocks fertilization and one type that block implantation. During my research, I found the majority of people I surveyed didn't realize that there were two different mechanisms. Depending on one's interpretation of when life begins(conception, development of a heart, 14wks, ex utero, et al) that is a major difference and it led to many shocked woman.

I spoke with a young married woman (26) that was a strong anti-abortion supporter. She believed that life began at conception. She revealed that she had been taking one of the oral BC that blocked implantation since she was 17. She broke down hysterically at the thought that she could have "aborted" X number of embryos over her 9 years of taking it.  

 

With the advances in medicine and the availability of newer medical technology and treatments, life is being sustained for a much greater length of time than has ever previously been possible. Combine that with limited or absence of contraception and we would be pushing India and China as population leaders. It's not sustainable. Contraception is vitally important, which mean access, education, and support is equally important.  That said, no one would support euthanizing octogenarians in order to control the population, so why should they support the termination of the in uterine life?

 

 

i did not know there were two types of oral birth control. that is an eye opener. thankd bird.

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2 hours ago, bigbird said:

@aubiefifty, I struggle with the idea of abortion because I believe life does begin at conception.

In biology, there are what's called the 5 characteristics of life. They are:

1. All living things are made of cells

2. use energy

3. Respond to stimuli

4. grow and reproduce

5. maintain homeostasis.

In my embryology classes in college and my work in gene therapy prior to James, we fertilized many different species of eggs for research. In doing so, when I  watched under the microscope, as soon as  the sperm was introduced into the egg, every single one of those characteristics mentioned above began. So, If scientist use those characteristics above to determine if something is alive or not for everything else on the planet, why don't they consider them when it comes to determining human life?

 

i am not sure why bird. thanks again.

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ok bird is hitting it out of the park as far as info i did not know about. another point of the question which holds a lot of people back from making abortion illegal is what happens when you give over certain rights to your body? what is next if anything? that is a huge question i hear from women who are dems and do not care for abortion except for loss of life and rape,etc. also another biggie with women is many would force a woman to carry the baby of their rapist. being from a family that suffered from a ped and having a sister raped repeatedly for a few years i just cannot imagine the horror of having to carry a baby to term. it destroyed her life. drugs, prostitution, alcoholic, and those type things. and before people laugh in the great state of alabama a repub introduced a bill trying to force a woman to carry the baby of a rapist. i was told it was just to make a point but in my opinion that point hurt the cause of doing away with abortion. so what do you tell a woman when she brings this up? if she gives up her right to abortion how do you convince her there will not be the next thing? like attacks on birth control. i have been angry at many churches because they refuse to go along with sex education or even giving the ok for our teens to seek protection from getting pregnant. it is a proven fact abstinence does not work because kids will be kids. we have children dabbling in sex in grammar school and junior high and not just seniors and from my eyes many parents get their kids bc and do not let the church know about it. looking at this i think some blame belongs in churchs. i am trying to throw thoughts out there which include mine as well that women will bring up when abortion is brought up. it is not my thing and will bring up some hard memories but i plan to watch all or at least part of cuties on netflix. it will be hard because my sister would slip off in the sixth grade and put on tons of makeup to look sexy for the boys. and no i am not blaming the church for what happened to my sister but the slim hope that maybe if things had been different maybe she learned enough to say no. my apologies if i am confusing folks as i just woke up. but thanks for those giving their opinions as i have learned a couple of things already.

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4 hours ago, bigbird said:

While I agree almost entirely with this view, I also agree with Fifty that it shouldn't be allowed to be a form of BC. 

I should probably have clarified, by special circumstances I mean situations other than using it as BC. 

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42 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

I should probably have clarified, by special circumstances I mean situations other than using it as BC. 

While I detest abortion, I couldn't begin to imagine the mental anguish that carrying a child to term conceived through rape or incest would inflict and I certainly couldn't tell a woman in that situation that she has to carry it.. I would easily understand her reasoning and, if someone I knew personally, would do everything I could to support her. I don't need to agree or approve to be compassionate.

 

That said, I'm not sure I can think of any  other instances where it is justified

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34 minutes ago, bigbird said:

While I detest abortion, I couldn't begin to imagine the mental anguish that carrying a child to term conceived through rape or incest would inflict and I certainly couldn't tell a woman in that situation that she has to carry it.. I would easily understand her reasoning and, if someone I knew personally, would do everything I could to support her. I don't need to agree or approve to be compassionate.

 

That said, I'm not sure I can think of any  other instances where it is justified

I agree, I couldn’t imagine going through that too. That’s why I say overall I am against abortion, but there’s situations where I can see it. The person that decides to have one has to deal with the consequences internally themselves. I’ve met women that have had one and they carry those demons with them and say they regret doing so. And I’ve met some that almost had one and didn’t and they say their child is the biggest blessing they ever got. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

I should probably have clarified, by special circumstances I mean situations other than using it as BC. 

i figured that was what you meant. no probs.............

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one thing i have a firm belief in is anytime abortion is discussed by government there should be women on the discussion board. it might be fake news but any panels i have seen by gopers have never included women. it might be fake news as i never fact checked it. and also i am not ruling out dems doing the same thing although it would seem less likely.

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people will roll their eyes but what about incest? back in the day kings and queens tried to keep their blood lines pure by doing this. i would not be for this and the thought of having to have sex with a brother or sister makes me want to puke. and i honestly do not know if they would be mentally off or what. trying to cover all the bases here and nothing more.

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2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

@aubiefifty when you get a chance, try and explain why ICHY facepalmed my post. I'd love your take.

i have no earthly idea bird. i thought you shared a lot of thought, love, and compassion myself. but i do not remember ever knowing him when he was talking so i have not a clue. i would think maybe he misunderstood, he disagrees, or he thinks you are lying? i like any responses in my posts because good bad or ugly they add up and i get a kick out of the numbers. that has to tell you how exciting my life is...lol. ichy would you care to comment? if someone is wrong it cannot be a teaching moment if you do not say why..............

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I met a Liberal Guy at work about 30 years ago. He was as Liberal as the most liberal on this forum in his politics, but he had a very strong belief that some of his Brethren "had become so open minded that their brains have fallen out." Steve later became Stephanie and she died from alcohol and pills. I cant say it was suicide or just bad party management. 

I am as Pro-Life as anyone here. But I have come to the realization that for over 40 years of screaming, we have cumulatively done....nothing. We have moved the needle on Abortion maybe half a cm in 40 years. So I have come to grips with my own beliefs about it.

I will not allow abortion to become my defining issue. Why? Because i can either Identify with the Republicans on maybe 1-2 issues. (Abortion and Balanced Budget, BTW, they really do not mean what they say on either issue, not one word) or i could set aside my strong pro-life belief and Identify with the Dem/Progressives on 99 other topics. I am more Progressive than even some of you will understand. I am travelling to NY for a Gay Wedding next Summer. I would not miss it for the world. I just had two other Gay males tie the knot. Totally Support them. If one of my kids came to me, they KNOW I would support them. 

I think we have suicidally over reacted on drugs, and i used to work with a Rescue Mission. 
I am 100% behind M4A. My own insurance, in 10 years went from Platinum to high bronze. WE ALL HATE IT. I make excellent money for N AL, and my insurance could not suck more ass. My average payout for a surgery is around $8500. My Doctors get nauseous every time i tell them I have Anthem. 

Pro-Life? You bet. Conservative? Nope.

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Like it or not, legal or illegal, abortion has existed in every society, every community, every era, every time, every place, for as long as we have history of humans. If abortion is not legally sanctioned, it will still occur illegally, and with much greater health hazards and more trauma to society.

The larger concern is not simply abortion. If pregnancy *prevention* is easily accessible, free, and heavily promoted via ediucation, the prevalence of actual abortions decreases dramatically. The problem is that most of those who oppose abortion also oppose sex education, pregnancy prevention modalities, and societal mechanisms that enable women (and men) to prevent pregnancy.

Abortion opponents also typically oppose societal mechanisms that support children born as a result of their own restrictions on pregnancy prevention or abolition of abortion.

The reality is, abortions will continue, whether they are legal or not. The difference is in endangerment, medical consequences, emergencies (all of which taxpayers may pay for) or unnecessary deaths.

As a believer in self determination and individual liberty, I am in agreement that women shoukd be free to decide the issues pertaining to their own bodies. This is not, IMO, an issue for MEN to decide. In reality, the only real issue here is whether it is legal, within a framework of constraints, and safe -- or whether it is illegal, putting women at at medical risk. Because abortion will happen either way.

As for the question of "what would the babies say?" well, here is the opinion of a beloved conservative ideologue -- as Ayn Rand made clear, the living take precedence over the non-living, both unborn and deceased.

And BTW, IMO. this pertains as well to so-called euthanasia and the entire "death with dignity" perspective. Throughout the hundreds of thousands of years of human civilization, societies have had ways of allowing the elderly to die with dignity. Our current system off forbidding the elderly or their family or society from offering a legal strategy for "separation with dignity" for those who are ready to die, is reprehensible.

 

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