Evangelicals Made a Bad Bargain With Trump

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Evangelicals Made a Bad Bargain With Trump

People of faith should embody moral and intellectual integrity

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/the-evangelical-movements-bad-bargain/616760/

The collateral damage the slavish loyalty (white) evangelicals have to Trump has done incalculable damage to their witness and influence.  It will take many years to recover from it.  I hope what was won in this bargain was worth it.  Enjoy whatever power/leverage/influence you feel you've managed to gain now because it's going to be a long, long time and some hard admissions and changes before we're listened to again.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

Either engage with the points the article makes or sit this one out, jj.

[DKW 86 7,419]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Evangelicals Made a Bad Bargain With Trump

People of faith should embody moral and intellectual integrity

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/the-evangelical-movements-bad-bargain/616760/

The collateral damage the slavish loyalty (white) evangelicals have to Trump has done incalculable damage to their witness and influence.  It will take many years to recover from it.  I hope what was won in this bargain was worth it.  Enjoy whatever power/leverage/influence you feel you've managed to gain now because it's going to be a long, long time and some hard admissions and changes before we're listened to again.

Ditto.

[aubiefifty 16,761]

i third that. people are not all stupid. and the fact most churches are right leaning and love trump period after all he has done and calling the left evil has hurt the churches pretty bad in my personal opinion. it is a slow effect but it is happening from personal friends. i have a friend who is a pastor in b'ham who is catching hell because they think he is too liberal. now they are trying to get him let go through his higher ups because they want church services and very few want to mask up. and all he is doing is trying to save lives. he is a cath by the way and did part time in a beatles tribute band before covid pretty much shut him down. i am all for freedom of speech buti am having doubts now about hate speech. hate is killing the greatest country in the world right now.......

[jj3jordan 2,051]

8 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Evangelicals Made a Bad Bargain With Trump

People of faith should embody moral and intellectual integrity

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/the-evangelical-movements-bad-bargain/616760/

The collateral damage the slavish loyalty (white) evangelicals have to Trump has done incalculable damage to their witness and influence.  It will take many years to recover from it.  I hope what was won in this bargain was worth it.  Enjoy whatever power/leverage/influence you feel you've managed to gain now because it's going to be a long, long time and some hard admissions and changes before we're listened to again.

This is just an opinionated hit piece designed to peel evangelicals away from Trump by trashing Trump and his evangelical support non stop.  The moral argument fails spectacularly when you realize that all of us are sinners, failures, bereft with evil, and unable to attain any salvation on our own.  If any of this is applied to politics then NO evangelical could EVER support ANY candidate.  Is that the plan? Force Christians to have so much guilt that they don’t vote for anybody? If you even try to float a Christian who lives a highly upstanding life, all you get is violent, blasphemous, outrage that we might have heaven forbid a Christian in office who MIGHT actually be influenced by their belief in making decisions.  
 

Apparently you and others completely miss the point of why Christians would vote for Trump.  There are big issues out there. 

1. Abortion.  Pure unadulterated evil. If you are for it you are dead to God. The Republican Party has taken a stand against abortion, not strong enough for me but still significant.

2. Socialism. God gives us free will to accept or not accept Him.  If you want to change our form of government to socialism, you empower the government to be your god. The ultimate result of this direction is the elimination of God and any religion. 

3.  Immigration.  Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or homeless. He was born out of town due to the census of the year 0. Jesus preached salvation through repentance of sins and a turning around of your life away from sin.  Jesus accepts ALL persons who do this. Nothing in His ministry suggests that countries should have open borders and that people should be given anything earthly if they do not work. Yes he fed 5000. Not because He was a socialist who thought everybody should share food. He did it because the crowd had followed him around the countryside while He preached and He felt he should feed them. 
 

In general, the Republican Party espouses one side of the three issues stated above. And the democrat party espouses the other. In addition, the democrat party welcomes large numbers of people who violently openly and aggressively hate God or flat out deny His existence.  
 

For these reasons a Christian like me and a lot of others will vote for a Republican candidate who falls short of any standard of what a Christian should be.  We would NEVER vote for a democrat because of their stance on abortion.  God used many many imperfect people to accomplish His goals. Is Trump one of them? I don’t know.  But when you or anybody else starts moralizing against Trump when the democrat party is morally bankrupt it is truly laughable. You hate Trump.  So what. You think Biden is better?  Sorry he is just as morally bankrupt as Trump. You think Trump is worse. I think any democrat is worse. Trump will be gone in a few months or a few years.  Don’t overestimate your analysis of what republicans and Christians are doing. You sir have NO standing to judge that.  Finding a few pastors to badmouth Trump doesn’t make a case for anything. All of us are responsible for our own relationship with Jesus.  Don’t imply that you or some author of another  Trump hit piece can somehow pass judgement on us.

[aubiefifty 16,761]

[aubiefifty 16,761]

my preacher is better than your preacher............lol.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

That's funny.  Recent reports from Africa and the middle east show colossal locust infestations. So..well there is your answer. He hasn't run out of locusts.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

my preacher is better than your preacher............lol.

According to you, you have issues and doubts that you are trying to work thru. So it's doubtful. lol.

[Leftfield 2,593]

3 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

The moral argument fails spectacularly when you realize that all of us are sinners, failures, bereft with evil, and unable to attain any salvation on our own.  If any of this is applied to politics then NO evangelical could EVER support ANY candidate. 

I will never understand this argument. By this standard, there is no sin a person could commit that would prevent an evangelical from voting for them. If a person supported the rest of the issues you listed about evangelicals, is it your view that it would be acceptable to vote for them even if they had murdered someone or was a proven pedophile? If not, where is the cutoff? What sin would they have to commit before you would say it is wrong to vote for them?

Also, would you vote for an evangelical over someone of a different religion, or is athiest, even if they live their lives to a higher moral standard than the evangelical?

 

4 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

1. Abortion.  Pure unadulterated evil. If you are for it you are dead to God. 

Won't get into this, as it is covered extensively in another thread. Just wanted to say it's good to know that you're the arbiter of God's will on Earth, just in case we have any questions later.

 

4 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

2. Socialism. God gives us free will to accept or not accept Him.  If you want to change our form of government to socialism, you empower the government to be your god. The ultimate result of this direction is the elimination of God and any religion. 

This has also been covered elsewhere. You seem to be confusing pure Socialism with Democratic socialism, which is closer to what many European governments practice. The idea behind Socialism is not evil. There are many good aspects to the concept, it's just lousy in practice, particularly when you get to the level of the Federal government, which is why I don't support it. Despite that, I think too many people throw the words "Socialism" and "Communism" around like they're sinister concepts because they still conflate them with the Cold War and the scare tactics employed decades ago. It's still ingrained in our society that they are bad words.

 

4 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

3.  Immigration.  Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or homeless. He was born out of town due to the census of the year 0. Jesus preached salvation through repentance of sins and a turning around of your life away from sin.  Jesus accepts ALL persons who do this. Nothing in His ministry suggests that countries should have open borders and that people should be given anything earthly if they do not work. Yes he fed 5000. Not because He was a socialist who thought everybody should share food. He did it because the crowd had followed him around the countryside while He preached and He felt he should feed them. 

I can't.....

 

4 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

 In addition, the democrat party welcomes large numbers of people who violently openly and aggressively hate God or flat out deny His existence.  

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I would really like to see evidence of someone saying they hate God. I've seen plenty of people that hate religion because of what groups of people who profess to love God do in His name, but I've yet to meet anyone who says they hate God. 

Also, you seem to have a very low opinion of anyone who doesn't believe in God. Do you believe that a person cannot be moral if they are athiest?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

6 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

This is just an opinionated hit piece designed to peel evangelicals away from Trump by trashing Trump and his evangelical support non stop.  

It's written by a staunch conservative, an evangelical who worked in the Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush administrations, was a speechwriter for William Bennett, and Executive Director for Policy for Empower America, a conservative group that was founded by Bennett, Jack Kemp, and Jeane Kirkpatrick.  It's not just "hit piece."  It's a principled argument from someone with more than enough standing and gravitas to make it.

 

Quote

The moral argument fails spectacularly when you realize that all of us are sinners, failures, bereft with evil, and unable to attain any salvation on our own.

Funny how all this peace, love, and "we're all just sinners" kumbaya was never offered for Bill Clinton.  No, he was a moral reprobate who lacked the moral character to be President.  But the second a guy slaps an 'R' behind his name, it's all "Who are we to judge?"  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

Quote

Apparently you and others completely miss the point of why Christians would vote for Trump.  There are big issues out there. 

1. Abortion.  Pure unadulterated evil. If you are for it you are dead to God. The Republican Party has taken a stand against abortion, not strong enough for me but still significant.

I actually agree on this.  And most of the time it's one of the key reasons I support Republican candidates (I've never voted for a Democrat for President and have only voted for one for Senate once in my lifetime).  But at the same time, one has to ask what the end goal is.  Is it a "win at all costs" drive to overturn Roe - just get a law changed?  Because while that's a nice symbolic (and not meaningless by any means) win, it would only send the issue back to the states.  Given the number of states that would still permit abortions, it's up in the air how much it would really decrease abortions, or how long the decreases would last once pro-choice states adjusted to the new reality (such as planting clinics just inside the border of states that outlaw the practice).

For some reason, though the abortion rate has been falling for a almost 30 years now, it appears to fall faster under Democratic presidents than it does under Republican ones.  It might be good to ask why that is.  Is it because Democratic presidents advocate for policies and programs that offer support for women that makes them feel like they can go through with a pregnancy?  Because the number one driver of abortions isn't women who just want to go whore around and have no consequences.  It's lack of financial and emotional support.  It's having to choose between finishing school and having a baby, or having a career that makes you self-sufficient or having to accept a lesser one that puts one in financial peril.  I'm not saying that any of these reasons are sufficient morally to end a child's life.  Far from it.  But the reality is what it is. We can't just look at the supply side of this equation.  If we really want to make a lasting dent in the abortion rate, the demand side needs to be addressed.

In the end, I'm a "what works" person on this.  What's going to save more unborn lives?  I'm not convinced the only (or perhaps even the best) way is the strategy pro-lifers in the GOP have devoting almost all their time and energy in the political realm to accomplish.

 

 

Quote

2. Socialism. God gives us free will to accept or not accept Him.  If you want to change our form of government to socialism, you empower the government to be your god. The ultimate result of this direction is the elimination of God and any religion. 

No one is changing our form of government to socialism and to even float this out there as a reason, much less to link it to God, is intellectually dishonest.  At best (or worst, depending on your perspective), some Democrats would like to borrow some ideas from the Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Finland) and have a more robust social safety net, universal health care, and things like that.  None of those countries are socialist nations.  They are more regulated capitalist economies with a more robust social safety net.   That's it.

 

Quote

3.  Immigration.  Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or homeless. He was born out of town due to the census of the year 0. Jesus preached salvation through repentance of sins and a turning around of your life away from sin.  Jesus accepts ALL persons who do this. Nothing in His ministry suggests that countries should have open borders and that people should be given anything earthly if they do not work. Yes he fed 5000. Not because He was a socialist who thought everybody should share food. He did it because the crowd had followed him around the countryside while He preached and He felt he should feed them. 

I would suggest you do a word study.  Maybe a couple of them.  First search every verse that speaks of the 'foreigner' or 'alien' and what God has to say about them and how Israel was to treat them.  You'll find a lot of interesting stuff but what you won't find is any defense of what the United States is doing to people at the borders.  Not even if you squint really hard and contort yourself.

Then do some study of the laws he gave Israel with regard to even their economics.  Look at things like telling landowners not to harvest out to all the corners of their land or to make a second pass to glean things they'd missed on the first pass because they should leave it for the poor. Then look at the book of Acts and see how the early Christians treated personal property amongst themselves.

No, it's not socialism and no one is suggesting that it is.  But what's clear is, having social safety nets and providing for the poor through the laws of the land and not just voluntary charity, is perfectly acceptable to God. 

 

Quote

In general, the Republican Party espouses one side of the three issues stated above. And the democrat party espouses the other. In addition, the democrat party welcomes large numbers of people who violently openly and aggressively hate God or flat out deny His existence.  

I do think the Democrats have done a lousy job of giving people of faith a serious listen particularly on social and moral issues.  

The problem is, while Republicans talk a big game on it, they largely do only that - talk.  Abortion gets all kinds of big talk and then year after year, they vote to continue to fund Planned Parenthood.  They had the WH, Senate and House for 4 years under G.W. Bush and didn't even make a serious attempt to stop their funding or to pass any real impactful restrictions on abortions. 

Abortion is the football, the GOP is Lucy and evangelicals are Charlie Brown - they just keep suckering you into thinking they care about it and will really let you finally kick that thing this time, then yank it out from under you as soon as the election is over.  Why?  I think it's because most of them don't really give a rat's ass about abortion.  Some of them secretly don't want it to go away at all.  Maybe it's because they like being able to bang the secretary and make the problem quietly go away.  Or maybe it's because it's useful as an election year carrot to dangle out there to gin up votes.  Either way, no objective person can look at their track record - in laws passed, in SCOTUS judges, in funding decisions - and believe they intend to really do anything about it.

Can/should the Democrats wake up and hear out people of faith more on these matters?  Of course they should.  Then again, maybe Christians should stop being a reliable auto-vote for a party that pays lip service to these matters so that the Democrats would see their votes as in play and worth going after.

 

Quote

For these reasons a Christian like me and a lot of others will vote for a Republican candidate who falls short of any standard of what a Christian should be.  We would NEVER vote for a democrat because of their stance on abortion.  God used many many imperfect people to accomplish His goals. Is Trump one of them? I don’t know.  But when you or anybody else starts moralizing against Trump when the democrat party is morally bankrupt it is truly laughable. You hate Trump.  So what. You think Biden is better?  Sorry he is just as morally bankrupt as Trump. You think Trump is worse. I think any democrat is worse. Trump will be gone in a few months or a few years.  Don’t overestimate your analysis of what republicans and Christians are doing. You sir have NO standing to judge that.  Finding a few pastors to badmouth Trump doesn’t make a case for anything. All of us are responsible for our own relationship with Jesus.  Don’t imply that you or some author of another  Trump hit piece can somehow pass judgement on us.

I pass judgment on hypocrisy because that's what it is.  The same things Christians have railed on liberals and Democrats for they now overlook, excuse, and minimize for Trump.  The forgiveness and grace they freely and generously apply to Trump, they withheld from Bill Clinton and anyone else that doesn't fall in line with the Republican Party line.  And people are watching.  And to them, they perceive it was never about character to conservative Christians, it was only about power.  It's terribly damaging to our witness whether you want to believe it or not and the damage is going to linger for a long time.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

I will never understand this argument. By this standard, there is no sin a person could commit that would prevent an evangelical from voting for them. If a person supported the rest of the issues you listed about evangelicals, is it your view that it would be acceptable to vote for them even if they had murdered someone or was a proven pedophile? If not, where is the cutoff? What sin would they have to commit before you would say it is wrong to vote for them?

 Sins and forgiveness are between Jesus and a sinner. There is a standard of righteousness that none of us will ever attain. If person was a Christian who had committed murder in a previous life I would evaluate that person as being forgiven of their sin and yes I could vote for that person. To say that Trump is guilty of these 35 sins so I shouldn't vote for him and ignore Bidens 27 sins.  That's purely hypothetical and is irrelevant to the vast majority of the population. 

Also, would you vote for an evangelical over someone of a different religion, or is athiest, even if they live their lives to a higher moral standard than the evangelical?

I don't know what everyones religion is. Some yes some no. I don't know what Reagens religion was, or 41 or 43. Clinton was supposed to be an evangelical Christian so there you have it.  Obama claimed to be a Christian but stated that he believes there are more than one way to get to heaven.  Sorry but NO Christian would ever say that.  Thats why people thought he was a muslim.  And that he said he would side with the muslims.  A higher standard of morality as determined by who? You?  I don't consider your definition of morality as legit if you are a supporter of abortion. That disqualifies you to set ANY standard of morality.  It is doubtful I would vote for an atheist.

Won't get into this, as it is covered extensively in another thread. Just wanted to say it's good to know that you're the arbiter of God's will on Earth, just in case we have any questions later.

I am not the arbiter of anything. God is. You will meet Him. Keep some of these arguments handy.

 

This has also been covered elsewhere. You seem to be confusing pure Socialism with Democratic socialism, which is closer to what many European governments practice. The idea behind Socialism is not evil. There are many good aspects to the concept, it's just lousy in practice, particularly when you get to the level of the Federal government, which is why I don't support it. Despite that, I think too many people throw the words "Socialism" and "Communism" around like they're sinister concepts because they still conflate them with the Cold War and the scare tactics employed decades ago. It's still ingrained in our society that they are bad words.

Socialists systematically eliminate God from their countries. It is a stepping stone to Communisn, which after some time is the ultimate result.  These are not bad words, just bad forms of government.  If someone would like to have socialism as a form of government, move to a country that has it. Leave this one alone. Please.

I can't.....

 

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I would really like to see evidence of someone saying they hate God. I've seen plenty of people that hate religion because of what groups of people who profess to love God do in His name, but I've yet to meet anyone who says they hate God. 

Just take a look at the signs and listen to the chants and insults at rallies and protests supported by democrats and even the democrat platform. It's not hidden, they are proud of it.

Also, you seem to have a very low opinion of anyone who doesn't believe in God. Do you believe that a person cannot be moral if they are athiest?

My opinion is irrelevant as I am not the judge. That is up to God so it is your call if you want to go there.  People can be great people, trustworthy and kind, very moral in the sense of obeying laws and can still be atheists.  They just can't be Christians. I realize that is a bad word among many liberals and democrats. But many democrats claim to be practicing catholics for instance, such as Pelosi and Biden, yet they overtly ignore many tenets of their own religion. Can't judge them either because their day will come in the seat.  I know this is a hot button issue with many of us. I recommend people vote their belief system and live with it. They just might not want to die with it.

 

[Leftfield 2,593]

 Sins and forgiveness are between Jesus and a sinner. There is a standard of righteousness that none of us will ever attain. If person was a Christian who had committed murder in a previous life I would evaluate that person as being forgiven of their sin and yes I could vote for that person. To say that Trump is guilty of these 35 sins so I shouldn't vote for him and ignore Bidens 27 sins.  That's purely hypothetical and is irrelevant to the vast majority of the population. 

Every bit of this is a cop out. "In their previous life?" Am I to assume this means that if a person ran a child sex ring and then is "born again" that you would absolve them of any sin? You're going to take the word of a person like that they've accepted Jesus? What if they were already a Christian when they committed the crime? And would you absolve a person who simply said they'd been reformed and realized the error of their ways as opposed to turning toward God?

Also, I'm not sure where you came up with the last two sentences. I never asked about quantity of sins, and it's ridiculous to assume there would be no difference in severity.

 

 A higher standard of morality as determined by who? You?  I don't consider your definition of morality as legit if you are a supporter of abortion. That disqualifies you to set ANY standard of morality.  

Another cop-out. A higher moral standard as determined by you. Answer that question.

It's also nice to know that you consider anyone that is pro choice to be invalid when it comes to morals. 

 

I am not the arbiter of anything. God is. 

My opinion is irrelevant as I am not the judge. 

Yet you just told us anyone that is pro choice is disqualified from setting a moral standard. Which would be, you know, judging.

 

What this all comes down to is that you are proving the article's point. You are willing to dismiss the behavior of a horrible person because it serves your political purposes. You attempt to justify it by implying that he is basically born again, and you make a false equivalence with his opponent by saying he is just as immoral. I'm not saying Biden is squeaky clean, and certainly I had no desire in the past to support him politically, but the only basis for you to say he's as morally bankrupt as Trump is that Biden is pro choice. Admittedly, that seems to be your full-stop argument, so from your perspective it makes sense.

I realize you will never vote Democrat, just realize that evangelical support for Trump, as the article state, has damaged their credibility for years to come.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

58 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

 Sins and forgiveness are between Jesus and a sinner. There is a standard of righteousness that none of us will ever attain. If person was a Christian who had committed murder in a previous life I would evaluate that person as being forgiven of their sin and yes I could vote for that person. To say that Trump is guilty of these 35 sins so I shouldn't vote for him and ignore Bidens 27 sins.  That's purely hypothetical and is irrelevant to the vast majority of the population. 

Every bit of this is a cop out. "In their previous life?" Am I to assume this means that if a person ran a child sex ring and then is "born again" that you would absolve them of any sin? You're going to take the word of a person like that they've accepted Jesus? What if they were already a Christian when they committed the crime? And would you absolve a person who simply said they'd been reformed and realized the error of their ways as opposed to turning toward God?

Also, I'm not sure where you came up with the last two sentences. I never asked about quantity of sins, and it's ridiculous to assume there would be no difference in severity.

To me he's confusing repentance, divine forgiveness, and restoration with still remaining qualified or trusted with certain responsibilities.  A confusion with eternal ramifications vs temporal consequences.  God is merciful.  He will forgive the absolute worst sinner on earth that turns to Him in true remorse and repentance for what they thought, said and done and desires to change who they are and how they live.  And He'll do more than just offer mercy, He'll step right alongside that person and actually supply them with the power and grace needed to be changed.

But the murderer who is forgiven by God still has to serve 25 to life.  The guy who raped a 16 year old girl will forever be a registered sex offender and we would not trust him to be the youth pastor at our church.  The pedophile that sexually abused a 5-year old can't run the daycare center.  And I think that men who sexually assault women then pay them off to keep it quiet, brag about grabbing women by the p****, are serial adulterers, and so should not be the leader of the free world.  They have not shown the moral character or the trustworthiness to be President.

 

58 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

I am not the arbiter of anything. God is. 

My opinion is irrelevant as I am not the judge. 

Yet you just told us anyone that is pro choice is disqualified from setting a moral standard. Which would be, you know, judging.

Yep.

 

58 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

What this all comes down to is that you are proving the article's point. You are willing to dismiss the behavior of a horrible person because it serves your political purposes. You attempt to justify it by implying that he is basically born again, and you make a false equivalence with his opponent by saying he is just as immoral. I'm not saying Biden is squeaky clean, and certainly I had no desire in the past to support him politically, but the only basis for you to say he's as morally bankrupt as Trump is that Biden is pro choice. Admittedly, that seems to be your full-stop argument, so from your perspective it makes sense.

I realize you will never vote Democrat, just realize that evangelical support for Trump, as the article state, has damaged their credibility for years to come.

Yep again.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Can't say I read much beyond a cursory skim, but I did catch something about socialism meaning that your god is government. Just a heads up from an atheist: If you're telling me that putting your tax dollars towards helping the less fortunate is evil, then you're not doing a great job at evangelizing. In fact, you're making Christianity look like a pretty crappy belief system. (Fortunately, I know better and realize that you either misrepresent or misunderstand Jesus's teachings. But if you're the type to falsely whine about the persecution of Christians, then you need to have a long, difficult conversation with yourself.)

 

[Leftfield 2,593]

I do want to make clear again that I have nothing against organized religion, just those who use it against others. On the face of it, I admit that, as an agnostic, sharing my opinion of what religion should be requires some hubris, but I haven't always been agnostic. My earliest questions of organized religion began because of the way I saw some treat it as a "club," and some even almost like a gang, because they could not reconcile the world view of others. 

I believe that a group that comes together to share in the love of God and supports each other to become better people, while also helping those in need around them, is a beautiful thing. Because of who I am, I cannot share in faith, but I respect the faith of others, and believe we can all share in helping each other become better and helping those around us.

[aubiefifty 16,761]

14 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

According to you, you have issues and doubts that you are trying to work thru. So it's doubtful. lol.

oh i am by no means a role model. i struggle quite often. you are that ayn rand kind of christian where you pretty much do not care if people struggle. then you have the nerve to say jesus just fed his followers just because they happened to be there. you try to imply jesus would not feed and help care for others and i call you on that.you throw crap out there and people see through it but you act superior with it like those drive by shots you take without addressing anything.

[aubiefifty 16,761]

11 hours ago, Leftfield said:

I will never understand this argument. By this standard, there is no sin a person could commit that would prevent an evangelical from voting for them. If a person supported the rest of the issues you listed about evangelicals, is it your view that it would be acceptable to vote for them even if they had murdered someone or was a proven pedophile? If not, where is the cutoff? What sin would they have to commit before you would say it is wrong to vote for them?

Also, would you vote for an evangelical over someone of a different religion, or is athiest, even if they live their lives to a higher moral standard than the evangelical?

 

Won't get into this, as it is covered extensively in another thread. Just wanted to say it's good to know that you're the arbiter of God's will on Earth, just in case we have any questions later.

 

This has also been covered elsewhere. You seem to be confusing pure Socialism with Democratic socialism, which is closer to what many European governments practice. The idea behind Socialism is not evil. There are many good aspects to the concept, it's just lousy in practice, particularly when you get to the level of the Federal government, which is why I don't support it. Despite that, I think too many people throw the words "Socialism" and "Communism" around like they're sinister concepts because they still conflate them with the Cold War and the scare tactics employed decades ago. It's still ingrained in our society that they are bad words.

 

I can't.....

 

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I would really like to see evidence of someone saying they hate God. I've seen plenty of people that hate religion because of what groups of people who profess to love God do in His name, but I've yet to meet anyone who says they hate God. 

Also, you seem to have a very low opinion of anyone who doesn't believe in God. Do you believe that a person cannot be moral if they are athiest?

thank you. here is what sticks in my craw. if i listened to christians like jj i would have turned from god a long time ago instead of seeking him out. i cannot help i struggle with it. maybe it is not my time to do so. he hurts his own religion as do many others and to me that is a betrayal of jesus. the only thing i can think is he thinks i want everyone to sit at home and be fed and taken care of even if they are healthy can work. it is just another smear by jj.

[aubiefifty 16,761]

let me say i am not kissing ass here but titan you give me some hope that some across the aisle get it. in times when most of your evangelical friends either secretly or being outspoken concerning libs and dems being evil can be heartbreaking. i understand people talk about my hate for trump. i do not hate trump for the record. i dislike him or even better i cannot stand him but hate? if i hated trump i would have hoped he died when he got covid but instead i prayed for him. while i am not athiest i like most of what Spinoza says about how he really thinks god feels. and i fear man has tampered with the bible so much to serve their own ends i wonder how much is truly gods word. and for all the folks reading this i have already been told i will burn in hell for those thoughts. but i do believe love is the higher law. i also believe good deeds will help you get into heaven or maybe gods favor. my biggest problem right now is watching so many christians throw others under the bus it tells me to give up. if i die and my thoughts are not settled i would hope god is loving enough to understand. i will say i am sick of christians leaders throw their faith out the window and still demonize others.

[DKW 86 7,419]

19 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

This is just an opinionated hit piece designed to peel evangelicals away from Trump by trashing Trump and his evangelical support non stop.  The moral argument fails spectacularly when you realize that all of us are sinners, failures, bereft with evil, and unable to attain any salvation on our own.  If any of this is applied to politics then NO evangelical could EVER support ANY candidate.  Is that the plan? Force Christians to have so much guilt that they don’t vote for anybody? If you even try to float a Christian who lives a highly upstanding life, all you get is violent, blasphemous, outrage that we might have heaven forbid a Christian in office who MIGHT actually be influenced by their belief in making decisions.  
 

Apparently you and others completely miss the point of why Christians would vote for Trump.  There are big issues out there. 

1. Abortion.  Pure unadulterated evil. If you are for it you are dead to God. The Republican Party has taken a stand against abortion, not strong enough for me but still significant.

2. Socialism. God gives us free will to accept or not accept Him.  If you want to change our form of government to socialism, you empower the government to be your god. The ultimate result of this direction is the elimination of God and any religion. 

3.  Immigration.  Jesus was not an illegal immigrant or homeless. He was born out of town due to the census of the year 0. Jesus preached salvation through repentance of sins and a turning around of your life away from sin.  Jesus accepts ALL persons who do this. Nothing in His ministry suggests that countries should have open borders and that people should be given anything earthly if they do not work. Yes he fed 5000. Not because He was a socialist who thought everybody should share food. He did it because the crowd had followed him around the countryside while He preached and He felt he should feed them. 
 

In general, the Republican Party espouses one side of the three issues stated above. And the democrat party espouses the other. In addition, the democrat party welcomes large numbers of people who violently openly and aggressively hate God or flat out deny His existence.  
 

For these reasons a Christian like me and a lot of others will vote for a Republican candidate who falls short of any standard of what a Christian should be.  We would NEVER vote for a democrat because of their stance on abortion.  God used many many imperfect people to accomplish His goals. Is Trump one of them? I don’t know.  But when you or anybody else starts moralizing against Trump when the democrat party is morally bankrupt it is truly laughable. You hate Trump.  So what. You think Biden is better?  Sorry he is just as morally bankrupt as Trump. You think Trump is worse. I think any democrat is worse. Trump will be gone in a few months or a few years.  Don’t overestimate your analysis of what republicans and Christians are doing. You sir have NO standing to judge that.  Finding a few pastors to badmouth Trump doesn’t make a case for anything. All of us are responsible for our own relationship with Jesus.  Don’t imply that you or some author of another  Trump hit piece can somehow pass judgement on us.

Brother, if we could meet and have about three beers, I would convince you that it is 100% BS. It is just words they mouth to get people to part with their money. They could not careless I promise.