Ryan Pugh

[AUDub 11,132]

6 minutes ago, cole256 said:

If I said this happen about 6 months from now people are going to say NOBODY would say that Cole

 

😂

Yeah.

I can sympathize with the "he was young and a dumbass" argument. Not that I blame Baylor for passing on him.

People coming at it like "what's so racist about blackface?" are just outright dumb.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

9 minutes ago, Tigerbelle said:

Probably. Maybe just casual racists and ignorant about blackface. Being famous and rich doesn't relieve them of racism. And when somebody makes an apology that means they DID SOMETHING WRONG....so there is that. And also there's that CONTEXT thing....if an actor made a movie about the evils of racism....and a scene in that movie called for blackface to be used to depict an event like the shows people used to do in blackface.....that actor would not necessarily be a racist. He would be acting in a movie.  The intention would be much different. 

Again.....nothing difficult here. Blackface is racist because it is demeaning, disrespectful and hurtful. That's a well known fact in this day and age. It should not have to be explained again and again. Black people have told us over and over. That's all anyone needs to hear. Respect their feelings on the matter and don't do it. 

"All blackface is derogatory whether it's meant to be or not. It's not cute or funny or cool. And it wasn't 10 years ago either.  My suspicion is that he was just a tone deaf, casual racist without any understanding that what he did was hurtful. But he should learn a lesson from it and work to change his racist thought processes from here on out. NOW he can't say he didn't know better." 

 

I agree it is simple, which is why I don't understand why you think it is only a one sided street. You seem to only want to respect certain groups feelings. I thought that in today's society we are all supposed to take into account everyone's feelings? Isn't that what they say nowadays? So if a white person knows the history of blackface and sees someone doing whiteface and it offends them or upsets them we are just supposed to be ok with it? You can argue that it doesn't have the history as blackface and I agree. But if it is only for a derogatory reason against blacks, is a white person not justified to think the reverse might be done in a derogatory way? 

[AUght2win 6,818]

10 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I know you won't agree but I've seen it and lived it and experienced it. This is the talk just the same as a person who says black people say the word why can't I? They want everything to be the same. They don't want to acknowledge what was done in the past and refuse to say it has an affect today

I don't disagree. I am pretty sure we are on the exact same page about all this. I am just trying to shut down people who point to RDJ and act like it's the same as what Ryan Pugh did.

They are trying to poke holes in the idea that blackface is wrong, and they are using asinine logic like - "well what about when RDJ made a movie about an out-of-touch moron who used blackface?! If that's okay, that means all blackface is okay!"

It's like watching the Clayton Bigsby Chappelle skit and claiming that Chappelle's mocking, ironic portrayal of a white supremacist is the same as a a genuine white supremacist. It's nuts. 

[cole256 17,039]

Oh and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. If you're into racist stuff or you try to make the stuff right or you argue and don't think anything racist. Don't talk to me. That goes for ANYBODY. It's not a agree to disagree and then come around and try to joke pretend to be friend thing. People that I disagree with football and all that   I don't take it personal and we can talk whenever

But if you on the racist stuff, you say stuff to your friends but try to hide it everywhere else. You say racism don't exist or do the you're a victim when stuff happens, or you can't ever say anything is racist or can't even have a convo because you will always say it's both ways and you always argue and have a reason why it's ok that another black person was killed and all that passive stuff......we're not friends I don't want to talk to you I don't want to talk football. Just don't interact with me.

Thx

[homersapien 11,354]

8 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

 

 

So is Jimmy Fallon racist?

Is Robert Downey Junior racist?

Is Nick Cannon racist?

How about Dave Chappelle?

 

Because it was previously stated in here that if you wear blackface it is racist, apparently regardless of the purpose of wearing it. So that takes out the history behind it. So I am just curious if you take the history out of it then can you answer the above 4 questions?

First, let me say I  didn't say what you have in bold above.

Having clarified that, wearing blackface is inherently "racist" because you are mimicking a defined group of people by mimicking or assuming a physical characteristic identified with that group.  (Likewise, pulling ones eye's back to mimic Asians is inherently racist.)

So, does that mean someone who puts on blackface is necessarily "a" racist? 

Not necessarily. 

It could mean they are just insensitive  - or reject the fact - that mimicking another "race" (or group) is inherently "racist". 

It may be they subscribe to the belief that if no harm or consequences result, it cannot be "racist" by definition.

In the particular case you present, it's probably a combination of the above two, plus the circumstances - a comedic performance - that trivializes or contextualizes what is fundamentally a racist gesture.

My position relies on a strict but subtle definition of "racist" as an act - which may or may not be the same as "racist" as a prejudicial belief.  It's admittedly a semantical - if not pedantic - position, but IMO, it's the basic source of conflict in this thread - and to some degree - in society as a whole.

Bottom line, what Pugh did was a racist act, which may - or may not - indicate he is a (prejudicial) racist in core beliefs. 

What it does suggest - particularly if one assumes he is not a prejudicial racist in beleif, is that that he - like most of us - don't really appreciate that mimicking another race reinforces the "other" perception of that race, even if unintended. 

So, at worst, it indicates he is prejudiced to or making fun of black people (which I personally doubt). At best, it indicates he unfortunately possesses the same human proclivity we all have - to perceive different groups as the "other" instead of the "same".  That's the part of human nature - our nature - that needs to be confronted before racism ceases to exist.

So, while I don't strictly and literally support Cole's position, I understand and respect it.  If I were black I'd probably look at it the same way.  And as a white person, I am in no position to criticize or second guess it.

Whew!

 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 minute ago, AUght2win said:

I don't disagree. I am pretty sure we are on the exact same page about all this. I am just trying to shut down people who point to RDJ and act like it's the same as what Ryan Pugh did.

They are trying to poke holes in the idea that blackface is wrong, and they are using asinine logic like - "well what about when RDJ made a movie about an out-of-touch moron who used blackface?! If that's okay, that means all blackface is okay!"

It's like watching the Clayton Bigsby Chappelle skit and claiming that Chappelle's mocking, ironic portrayal of a white supremacist is the same as a a genuine white supremacist. It's nuts. 

Good riddance if that is what you got out of everything. It is in fact the opposite. He made the asinine statement that all blackface is racist. He openly refuses to look at intent, which is the whole reason of RDJ. Good lord do you really think people think Pugh was trying to be RDJ? I asked if my black friend dressing up in whiteface was racist and he refused to answer. Why? I guessing because he wanted to know the situation and intent of it. But he can't ask about that while saying all blackface is racist no matter what. These were crazy comparisons to actors because the double standards some people in here want to apply. I did not think I would have to explain his to you. 

[AUght2win 6,818]

15 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Good riddance if that is what you got out of everything. It is in fact the opposite. He made the asinine statement that all blackface is racist. He openly refuses to look at intent, which is the whole reason of RDJ. Good lord do you really think people think Pugh was trying to be RDJ? I asked if my black friend dressing up in whiteface was racist and he refused to answer. Why? I guessing because he wanted to know the situation and intent of it. But he can't ask about that while saying all blackface is racist no matter what. These were crazy comparisons to actors because the double standards some people in here want to apply. I did not think I would have to explain his to you. 

Whiteface doesn't have a historical connotation. It's not 1 to 1. So I don't get what point you are going for.

I'm not particularly comfortable with Whiteface either, but it's not the same as blackface. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

27 minutes ago, homersapien said:

First, let me make clear I didn't say what you have in bold above.

Having clarified that, wearing blackface is inherently "racist" because you are mimicking a defined group of people by mimicking or assuming a physical characteristic identified with that group.  (Likewise, pulling ones eye's back to mimic Asians is inherently racist.)

So, does that mean someone who puts on blackface is necessarily "a" racist? 

Not necessarily. 

It could mean they are just insensitive  - or reject the fact - that mimicking another "race" (or group) is inherently "racist". 

It may be they subscribe to the belief that if no harm or consequences result, it cannot be "racist" by definition.

In the particular case you present, it's probably a combination of the above two, plus the circumstances - a comedic performance - that trivializes or contextualizes what is fundamentally a racist gesture.

My position that relies on a strict but subtle definition of "racist" as an act - which may or may not be the same as "racist" as a prejudicial belief.  It's admittedly a semantical - if not pedantic - position, but IMO, it's the basic source of conflict in this thread - and to some degree - in society as a whole.

Bottom line, what Pugh did was a racist act, which may - or may not - indicate he is a (prejudicial) racist. 

What it does suggest - particularly if one assumes he is not a (prejudicial) racist is that that he - like most of us - don't really appreciate that such mimicking another race reinforces the "other"  of that race, even if unintended. 

At worst, it indicates he is prejudiced to or making fun of black people (which I personally doubt). At best, it indicates he possesses the same human proclivity we all have to perceive different groups as "other" instead of "same".  And that's the part of human nature we need to confront before racism ceased to exist.

So, while I don't strictly and literally support Cole's position, I understand and respect it.  And as a white person, I am in no position to criticize or second guess it.

Whew!

 

 

That bolded part you refer to was in response to what Cole had said, not you. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear.  First I totally agree 100% with what you said. (Did hell just freeze over?) Second, I am glad you picked up on my question and answered it the way you did. (Yep, hell just froze over.)

The bolded part of yours is where people seem to think it is only applied in certain cases. Which was my original point to Cole. I fully understand the history behind blackface stuff, but that doesn't mean it ends there or can't be hurtful (whiteface or slanting your eyes like you mentioned) to a particular group of people. So my intent was not to minimalize how he feels about it, but have him look at the bigger picture based on how he feels about blackface. 

The rest I don't think I can say much better here than you so, I will just refer them to your response to me. 

 

Cheers

 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

8 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Whiteface doesn't have a historical connotation. It's not 1 to 1. So I don't get what point you are going for.

I'm not particularly comfortable with Whiteface either, but it's not the same as blackface. 

I never said they were equal, but in the end either use of it is a form of a negative racial gesture and should be recognized as such. Racist acts are racist acts regardless of magnitude. Even if one is worse you can't say "that doesn't matter because it isn't as bad." Which is essentially what you and a few others in here are saying (even if that isn't the intent of what is being said.)

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, metafour said:

I don't feel bad for Pugh either, and Baylor did what they had to do in a landscape wherein the ramifications are obvious. But your response is a half-answer and you know it. If you can't tell by now; everything that you do is judged based off of the political affiliation you hold and the consequences/punishments are in fact levied under that parameter. The "people of Canada" didn't punish Trudeau because he is a member of the Liberal party which affords him special privileges. Had he been a CONSERVATIVE Prime Minister, the streets would have been lined with people demanding his resignation. You see this through and through in every aspect of life. Jimmy Kimmel does blackface and all he has to do is shed a few tears and apologize, go on a vacation, and everything is back to normal. What the hell is that all about?

 

No, it's not a half answer.  Canadian politics and it's citizens are much different from the U.S.  Montreal and Calgary couldn't be more opposite ends of the universe.  I'm not a Canadian citizen so I won't tell you wit certainty how they should or would act.  Pretty simple.

As for Kimmel, yeah, F that guy too.  I will tell you though, I don't know a single left leaning person in real life that actually watches his show.  Primarily because it's really bad television. 

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

2 hours ago, Tigerbelle said:

Unless you are a black person....you don't get to decide if it's "wrong". You don't get to tell them it's nothing. Unless you are a black person who understands the context of blackface....you should maybe be quiet about it. 

Here's a clue...what you just posted is the subtle, casual racism I spoke about....so ingrained that you can't even see that what you posted was racist and mean-spirited. 

 You know nothing about me or my experiences. I really don't care what you think. 

Here's a thought....you telling me I can't have an opinion about something unless I am of a certain skin tone.....is racist in itself.  

 

[AUght2win 6,818]

36 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

I never said they were equal, but in the end either use of it is a form of a negative racial gesture and should be recognized as such. Racist acts are racist acts regardless of magnitude. Even if one is worse you can't say "that doesn't matter because it isn't as bad." Which is essentially what you and a few others in here are saying (even if that isn't the intent of what is being said.)

Again. We aren't discussing whiteface. So I don't even care about the point. Whataboutism is really played out.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 minute ago, AUght2win said:

Again. We aren't discussing whiteface. So I don't even care about the point. Whataboutism is really played out.

Then quit responding to me and move along. It is really that simple.

[homersapien 11,354]

2 hours ago, AUght2win said:

No. No. No. No. No.

Don't play into their crap. RDJ in Tropic thunder was in no way racist. This is oversimplifying.

It's like saying "The Producers" were Nazis because they had Nazis in their movie. 

Life is complex. Nuance exists. People need to stop oversimplifying and do some critical thinking. 

Your dealing with trolls, in the purest sense.

(Great analogy with The Producers"! )

 

[homersapien 11,354]

2 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

When you go with a blanket statement like he did then it goes beyond Pugh. Just calling out some of the typical hypocrisy we see on here as well as the weaseling done to fit their narrative. Which could have been settled by a few simple yes or no answers a few pages back. 

Who said you don't do nuance!?  

 

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

2 hours ago, Tigerbelle said:

The intention would be much different. 

 

So intent does matter? Thanks for clearing that up.

[homersapien 11,354]

33 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Then quit responding to me and move along. It is really that simple.

That works both ways, ya know. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

That works both ways, ya know. 

Well yeah, but you know. 

[AUDub 11,132]

2 hours ago, AUght2win said:

Don't play into their crap. RDJ in Tropic thunder was in no way racist. This is oversimplifying.

It's one of those things where you're treading a very fine line. If you can do it in a manner that you're not dehumanizing or insulting anyone, obviously meant to be a caricature of people who do it in an racist/insensitive manner and most importantly funny, then you can get away with it.

In Tropic Thunder the joke worked because it digs at the asshat producers racist enough to cast an obviously caucasian man to play a black character and RDJ's character having his head so far up his own ass that the fact that it is racist is completely lost on him.

[cole256 17,039]

I think this may be a perfect time for me to start another Auburn football forum

[AUDub 11,132]

26 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I think this may be a perfect time for me to start another Auburn football forum

Is it the RDJ stuff, Cole?

[cole256 17,039]

Oh no, it's convo's like these that make me think I bet there is other demographics that would like a forum such as this

[autigeremt 6,569]

8 hours ago, cole256 said:

Lol I don't even know what you are talking about. I was talking about this stuff. And that's the other messed up thing. Then you have the people that aren't racist but won't step up and call out the racist stuff and when you are calling out the racist stuff they want to interject and say well you guys are racist too! They don't want to x talk about what was done in the past and that's why the present is so messed up. 

Use an example what are you talking about specifically because I know you don't want to hear my side

I'm fine with hearing your side. Matter of fact I believe I've heard it from my Army, USCG, Law Enforcement, Fire and EMS buddies and am always interested in hearing it. However I have found in the last few years that my side is of no value and therefore can be dismissed even though I'm over a 1/4 Cherokee and know what my ancestors went through avoiding the Trail of Tears. I'm just not sure the white side of my ancestry can relate since only a few of them are still alive. 

[DKW 86 7,412]

11 hours ago, cole256 said:

If you wear black face you're absolutely racist? I'm assuming you're saying something different?

Dont say that outloud tho man. The blind sycophantic Democrats here that supports Governor Northam in Virginia will have to discipline you with 2-3 facepalms or...even the dreaded.... thumbs down. How dare you say that wearing black face is racist? Why thinking like that might cost the Dems a few elected offices across America and when it comes to racism or power, well theDems are always gonna choose power. 

[AUDub 11,132]

10 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Dont say that outloud tho man. The blind sycophantic Democrats here that supports Governor Northam in Virginia will have to discipline you with 2-3 facepalms or...even the dreaded.... thumbs down. How dare you say that wearing black face is racist? Why thinking like that might cost the Dems a few elected offices across America and when it comes to racism or power, well theDems are always gonna choose power. 

Northam is kind of a unique situation.

For one, his second in line had sexual assault allegations leveled against him, and third in line also got caught up in a blackface scandal. 

For another, the polling of black folks in the state overwhelmingly revealed they did not want him to resign.

For yet another, fast moving media cycle these days and people moved on to the next outrage (whatever the hell Trump was up to at the time) and it just sort of fell by the wayside.