Ryan Pugh

[AUght2win 6,818]

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Anyway, so many of these people are "you loot, we shoot" and "everyone is responsible for their own actions" and "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" until a bunch of Republican terrorists storm the nation's capitol at their candidate's request or

Don't go this route. Don't lose credibility while making a clearly righteous argument. The villifying "straight white male" stuff and making it political muddies this and makes you come off as obnoxious and unsound. It's the reason people (rightfully, actually) ignore counter arguments. 

[jAUSon 2,836]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Um, feel free to say that about people participating in this conversation, but there are a shitload more than just one breathing person on the planet saying that and much worse. 

It's actually shocking if you actually believe what you typed. 

No sir. I'm not threading this imaginary needle about what is and aint appropriate. None of this matters, the court of public opinion took out Pugh, I'm not defending the guy. Cole said

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

 

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

 

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

That statement is f'ing ridiculous. NOBODY THINKS THAT.

[AUApostle 7,648]

4 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Bro this is a stupid semantics game. Whether he is "racist" or "insensitive" or "ignorant" or whatever doesn't matter. What Ryan did was wrong.

It was 10 years ago, and he likely wouldn't do it again, but it happened. He SHOULDN'T be canceled but y'all SHOULDN'T act like blackface in and of itself is fine. It isn't. Half the people in this thread maintain he did nothing wrong. 

Anybody with a decent set of parents knows it's wrong and any school should be absolutely cautious about hiring him.  My point is that people can change (heck, my raging alcoholic father transformed into an incredibly kind and loving person).  I don't agree that automatic cancellation of someone for sins 10 years ago is a good thing.  People deserve second chances for many things, as long as decision makers move forward in wisdom and discernment regarding that individual.  Maybe Ryan is a D-B to this day...I don't know, never met him.

[cole256 17,039]

3 minutes ago, jAUSon said:

No sir. I'm not threading this imaginary needle about what is and aint appropriate. None of this matters, the court of public opinion took out Pugh, I'm not defending the guy. Cole said

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

 

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

 

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

That statement is f'ing ridiculous. NOBODY THINKS THAT.

Lol. Yeah racist do not exist do they?

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, jAUSon said:

"whatever you want to black people and there be no repercussions"

That statement is f'ing ridiculous. NOBODY THINKS THAT.

Then you really need to peek outside of whatever tiny bubble in which you live. 

Actually, don't. It sounds nice in there. I genuinely wish I believed as you do.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

52 minutes ago, cole256 said:

This is almost the equivalent of asking if you guys use the word how come it's racist if I use it

No not even close to an equivalent. Everyone knows about the word and it's connotation still today. Not so much with blackface, the fact that people say they did not know it had racial undertones until they learned about it in college separates it from the word by a good margin. 

 

26 minutes ago, cole256 said:

You may not feel like I countered what you said but I feel like I did that and then more. But what I really don't understand is you talking about one person and trying to use that as to say this black face thing wasn't from an evil place. There was nothing that I said that can be disputed either. So the origins was to exclude, to make fun of, to humiliate, even used by the kkk to recruit and you're saying because this man did it you can't really be offended? And are you suggesting that Pugh was thinking about Al Jolson.

What you fail to understand is that you are trying to lump everyone that uses blackface into the category that they are using it because they are trying to humiliate, make fun of, etc. 

 

Does intent matter? If a black person does the above in whiteface to humiliate, make fun of, etc. it is just as racist as a white person doing it to black people. I don't see you caring about the intent of it, just the color of the persons skin that is doing it. If intent doesn't matter wrong is wrong no matter which way it goes. I suspect you know this and that is why you can't answer if the other examples are racist.  

 

Are suggesting you know Pugh was wanting to use black face in a derogatory way? If you don't isn't it unfair to automatically assume he was? Just as it isn't right to assume he wasn't meaning to do it. 

[cole256 17,039]

2 minutes ago, AUDevil said:

Anybody with a decent set of parents knows it's wrong and any school should be absolutely cautious about hiring him.  My point is that people can change (heck, my raging alcoholic father transformed into an incredibly kind and loving person).  I don't agree that automatic cancellation of someone for sins 10 years ago is a good thing.  People deserve second chances for many things, as long as decision makers move forward in wisdom and discernment regarding that individual.  Maybe Ryan is a D-B to this day...I don't know, never met him.

So why is it you can explain and talk with anybody else but me you get on the high horse and make like I'm stupid to say it's wrong?

[AUght2win 6,818]

4 minutes ago, AUDevil said:

Anybody with a decent set of parents knows it's wrong and any school should be absolutely cautious about hiring him.  My point is that people can change (heck, my raging alcoholic father transformed into an incredibly kind and loving person).  I don't agree that automatic cancellation of someone for sins 10 years ago is a good thing.  People deserve second chances for many things, as long as decision makers move forward in wisdom and discernment regarding that individual.  Maybe Ryan is a D-B to this day...I don't know, never met him.

Sure they do. But Baylor doesn't necessarily have to bite the bullet. Why should they take all that on when just hiring a guy? Especially after a decade of scandal. 

Ryan deserves forgiveness. Baylor also deserves to not want to serve as his road for redemption. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

43 minutes ago, ScotsAU said:

Fallon has since apologized for that sketch. FYI.

He apologized for being racist?

[McLoofus 35,182]

10 minutes ago, TigerHorn said:

Baylor had this guy quit a job and commit to them.

It's a shame they didn't receive the information sooner. Doesn't mean they had to deal with his baggage. Also, how do you know that he wasn't asked a direct question that would have allowed him to be forthcoming about this and he chose not to?

Quote

That should be a two way street, ESPECIALLY for a Christian school, where forgiveness is a core value.

Christians don't have any domain over the concept of forgiveness. Also, you're talking about the school that had a systemic rape problem. Let's not pretend that they're in any ways arbiters of decency, or that reneging on a contract with blackface guy is anywhere near the top of their list of shortcomings. 

Quote

Apparently he's done quite well coaching black players at Troy and other stops. Should all of those players that he helped now turn their back on him?

Nope. I have zero opinion on what they should or shouldn't do. That's up to them. And it has nothing to do with what Baylor should or shouldn't do.

Quote

Neither of us is without sin 'Loof. The standard CANNOT be perfection in all aspects of life. 

That is similarly irrelevant. I'm not opining at all on the guy's actions. Only that Baylor doesn't have to hire him. And if Pugh was actually perfect besides that one incident, he'd probably still be headed there. But again, they're not firing Jesus for cheating on a math test. They're choosing not to follow through on hiring some guy from Troy.

Quote

WRT to his teammates, they all played their hearts out together at AU, black and white. It's not at all impossible that one of his black teammates made the suggestion for the costume, is it? Not all people of any color think the same. Just ask Thomas Sowell. 

Feel free to say these things to someone else, but they have nothing to do with my prior response to you or anything else I've said. But I would caution you against putting any more effort into making what he did okay. That's not forgiving. That's normalizing. And it's bad. 

[cole256 17,039]

4 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

No not even close to an equivalent. Everyone knows about the word and it's connotation still today. Not so much with blackface, the fact that people say they did not know it had racial undertones until they learned about it in college separates it from the word by a good margin. 

 

What you fail to understand is that you are trying to lump everyone that uses blackface into the category that they are using it because they are trying to humiliate, make fun of, etc. 

 

Intent matters, if a black person does the above in whiteface to humiliate, make fun of, etc. it is just as racist as a white person doing it to black people. I don't see you caring about the intent of it, just the color of the persons skin that is doing it. Wrong is wrong no matter which way it goes. I suspect you know this and that is why you can't answer if the other examples are racist. 

 

Are suggesting you know Pugh was wanting to use black face in a derogatory way? If you don't isn't it unfair to automatically assume he was? Just as it isn't right to assume he wasn't meaning to do it. 

What? So I have to not care because of ignorance? I don't know what a swastika mean so if I wore one it's cool? And you assuming ignorance. He knew not to do that at the football party. Actually most times when the people are caught doing this it's a private all white get togethers. Why is that?

[TigerHorn 1,351]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

It's a shame they didn't receive the information sooner. Doesn't mean they had to deal with his baggage. Also, how do you know that he wasn't asked a direct question that would have allowed him to be forthcoming about this and he chose not to?

Christians don't have any domain over the concept of forgiveness. Also, you're talking about the school that had a systemic rape problem. Let's not pretend that they're in any ways arbiters of decency, or that reneging on a contract with blackface guy is anywhere near the top of their list of shortcomings. 

Nope. I have zero opinion on what they should or shouldn't do. That's up to them. And it has nothing to do with what Baylor should or shouldn't do.

That is similarly irrelevant. I'm not opining at all on the guy's actions. Only that Baylor doesn't have to hire him. And if Pugh was actually perfect besides that one incident, he'd probably still be headed there. But again, they're not firing Jesus for cheating on a math test. They're choosing not to follow through on hiring some guy from Troy.

Feel free to say these things to someone else, but they have nothing to do with my prior response to you or anything else I've said. But I would caution you against putting any more effort into making what he did okay. That's not forgiving. That's normalizing. And it's bad. 

You're in no position to caution or judge me in any way, nor am I with you. Baylor does have a lot of ground to make up. They could start with living up to their core values. I'm done here. 

[metafour 4,958]

36 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I don't give Trudeau a pass for it either.  But his consequences are up to the people of Canada.  The consequences in Pugh's case were up to the administration at Baylor.  I'm not going to feel bad for the guy.

I don't feel bad for Pugh either, and Baylor did what they had to do in a landscape wherein the ramifications are obvious. But your response is a half-answer and you know it. If you can't tell by now; everything that you do is judged based off of the political affiliation you hold and the consequences/punishments are in fact levied under that parameter. The "people of Canada" didn't punish Trudeau because he is a member of the Liberal party which affords him special privileges. Had he been a CONSERVATIVE Prime Minister, the streets would have been lined with people demanding his resignation. You see this through and through in every aspect of life. Jimmy Kimmel does blackface and all he has to do is shed a few tears and apologize, go on a vacation, and everything is back to normal. What the hell is that all about?

 

[cole256 17,039]

9 minutes ago, TigerHorn said:

You're in no position to caution or judge me in any way, nor am I with you. Baylor does have a lot of ground to make up. They could start with living up to their core values. I'm done here. 

So somebody does something racist you get say no harm no foul!?

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, TigerHorn said:

You're in no position to caution or judge me in any way, nor am I with you. Baylor does have a lot of ground to make up. They could start with living up to their core values. I'm done here. 

Cool. But I promise, I'm just looking out for you. It's not smart to rationalize blackface. By all means, forgive. Chalk it up to youthful ignorance. Believe that the dude has turned over a new leaf. But don't posit that maybe it was a black guy's idea. I'm totally cautioning you against that. I promise I'm in a good position to do that. 

[cole256 17,039]

And once again I didn't say anything about this guy's employment I said that this stuff is racist and wrong. I don't see how you can argue that 

[jAUSon 2,836]

26 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Then you really need to peek outside of whatever tiny bubble in which you live. 

Actually, don't. It sounds nice in there. I genuinely wish I believed as you do.

You've been my favorite guy on here for like ten years. My bubble is bigger than yours. Everybody knows there'll be consequences no matter where they draw their personal line in the sand. Anything? A person can do anything? No consequences? Cole can re-word that or go fk hisself I dont care 

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

9 hours ago, Tigerpro2a said:

I think that is a horrible comparison. Since when is blackface compared to nazi? 

I see nothing wrong with it personally. society just decided it was racist asking with everything else. 

Unless you are a black person....you don't get to decide if it's "wrong". You don't get to tell them it's nothing. Unless you are a black person who understands the context of blackface....you should maybe be quiet about it. 

Here's a clue...what you just posted is the subtle, casual racism I spoke about....so ingrained that you can't even see that what you posted was racist and mean-spirited. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, jAUSon said:

Everybody knows there'll be consequences no matter where they draw their personal line in the sand. Anything? A person can do anything? No consequences?

This was said by a woman who participated in an insurrection and forced her way into our nation's capitol:

Quote

"This is not America," she said. "They're shooting at us. They're supposed to shoot BLM, but they're shooting the patriots."

I see that you're being super literal, and maybe if Cole had used a word like "should" it would have completely changed your opinion, but it strikes me as an odd semantic hill to die on. 

[homersapien 11,354]

3 hours ago, metafour said:

Cole, I've agreed with you a lot lately, but if you actually knew the history of blackface then you would know that it is a dicey topic at best. Al Jolson, the "King of Blackface", was a legitimate champion of black culture - as per the recollection of actual black people and performers of the time who knew and interacted with him. Al Jolson legitimized jazz and black entertainers into mainstream white American culture back when that was unheard of. I realize that the norm now is to rewrite history as you see fit; but it's quite fallacious to speak on behalf of black people who actually lived in the era of legitimate racism. There were quite clearly racist blackface performances, and there were blackface performances which were the exact opposite (like Al Jolson). This is a very "touchy" subject for modern black people because it requires the admission that the majority of black Americans at the time actually supported SOME of these performances.

I was born and raised in Alabama and here's our history of blackface that I personally experienced (as a "semi-modern" white person ).

I was born in Birmingham in 1951.  My mother attended Woodlawn High School in Birmingham.  At that time, Woodlawn was famous for it's annual "Minstrel" show which was presented by the Woodlawn Glee Club, all of whom naturally appeared in black face - complete with the white lips.

My mother took me to one of these minstrel shows when I was about 10 years old. The music that was performed - Stephen Foster, standards, etc. - was beautiful and made an impression on me.

What made an even bigger impression on me were the comedy acts that interspersed the musical numbers.  There were a couple of guys in black face and raggedy clothes that ran out on the stage with huge dice props they rolled around while telling jokes and generally ridiculing colored people (as they were called back then.)

This was a time of blatant racism in Alabama which I am not "rewriting".

The all-white audience loved it, including me (I suppose) but I didn't fully understand the racial implications. 

At the time I was in the Cub Scouts and our "Den mother" - also my own mother - organized a minstrel for us to perform, pantomiming a recording of "Way Down Upon the Suwanee River". We held in the basement of the Methodist church.  We all wore black face and of course, the audience was all white. (We didn't do the racist comedy though.)

Later, in hindsight, I recognized the inherent racism in all this. But I understood it as a reflection of the (white) society I grew up in.  Likewise, I can relate with the stories others have mentioned about the racism noted in their families.  Mine came from the same place but my parents never exhibited racism nor tolerated it from me. (The rest of the family, no so much.) Having said that, I also witnessed a change in attitude in some family - particularly my father, who was in charge of several Bell System telephone repair crews that were just starting to integrate (way before the rest of the city). He told a story in which his crews had stopped at a motel or restaurant who refused service to a black man in the crew.  He said if you can't serve him you won't serve any of us and packed everyone up and left.

Personally I went through Junior and Senior high schools that were still largely segregated.  I didn't really have any significant black acquaintances or friends until I met some while working at U.S. Steel in B'ham.  I got to know Leon Sanky - a black Viet Nam vet - while working next to him on a production line.  We talked a lot about music. (I fancied myself as a blues and jazz fan but found out real quick that I didn't know squat about the actual origins of the music I was listening to, which were was mostly covers by (white) English R&R musicians.)

Leon was generous enough to invite me to his home to listen to the original stuff and introduced me to Charlie Parker, John Coltrain, etc. It was eye opening, even though his wife was clearly a little nervous about it. (This was the early 70's.)

My point in relating all this is to illustrate that our individual experiences with racism varies greatly with one's own race (obviously) and circumstances.  White people have an obligation to at least try to understand what it's like to be the object of racism and to recognize the life-affecting implications of that racism, much less acknowledging the countries history of racism.  

The good news is things are improving - even if much too slowly.  Most importantly, we - is to know that we as individuals - are capable of change.

In this case, it's hard to know Ryan Pugh's heart and intent.  It's quite possible - or even likely - that what he did was innocent and there was zero element of racism intended. It's unfortunate that it cost him a job, but I also understand Baylor's position.  Broadly speaking, it could be argued Ryan just another victim of our culture of racism that has been the history of our country from the beginning. 

I suspect we won't be completely free of it until we are integrated down to the family level. 

 

 

 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 minute ago, cole256 said:

What? So I have to not care because of ignorance? I don't know what a swastika mean so if I wore one it's cool? And you assuming ignorance. He knew not to do that at the football party. Actually most times when the people are caught doing this it's a private all white get togethers. Why is that?

Cole, I know you are an intelligent guy. But you are letting emotions override your thinking. 

 

You made a blanket statement that anyone who wears blackface is racist. So this goes beyond Pugh and as such I am not referring solely to Pugh here. If you are saying you know for sure he did not wear it to the football party but then wore it to a private all white party then yes he did it in a racist way. Or are you just assuming that is what happened? There is a big distinct difference there. Which this has been my point this entire time that intent matters!!! So if you want to throw a blanket statement out that all blackface is racist, then all whiteface is racist. Someone dressed up in whiteface at a private all black party would be racist as well. The magnitude of racism may not be equal, but as far as I am concerned racism is racism and we should strive to rid it all. 

 

If you wore a swastika because you didn't know what it meant, no it would not be cool and if you (are anyone else for that matter made an honest mistake I would be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. ) My initial response would be WTF, but that is the same response I get when I see people in blackface and when I saw my friend in whiteface. 

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

35 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

No not even close to an equivalent. Everyone knows about the word and it's connotation still today. Not so much with blackface, the fact that people say they did not know it had racial undertones until they learned about it in college separates it from the word by a good margin. 

 

What you fail to understand is that you are trying to lump everyone that uses blackface into the category that they are using it because they are trying to humiliate, make fun of, etc. 

 

Does intent matter? If a black person does the above in whiteface to humiliate, make fun of, etc. it is just as racist as a white person doing it to black people. I don't see you caring about the intent of it, just the color of the persons skin that is doing it. If intent doesn't matter wrong is wrong no matter which way it goes. I suspect you know this and that is why you can't answer if the other examples are racist.  

 

Are suggesting you know Pugh was wanting to use black face in a derogatory way? If you don't isn't it unfair to automatically assume he was? Just as it isn't right to assume he wasn't meaning to do it. 

All blackface is derogatory whether it's meant to be or not. It's not cute or funny or cool. And it wasn't 10 years ago either.  My suspicion is that he was just a tone deaf, casual racist without any understanding that what he did was hurtful. But he should learn a lesson from it and work to change his racist thought processes from here on out. NOW he can't say he didn't know better. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

Just now, Tigerbelle said:

All blackface is derogatory whether it's meant to be or not. It's not cute or funny or cool. And it wasn't 10 years ago either.  My suspicion is that he was just a tone deaf, casual racist without any understanding that what he did was hurtful. But he should learn a lesson from it and work to change his racist thought processes from here on out. NOW he can't say he didn't know better. 

Hence my question to Cole was if it is derogatory no matter what, whiteface should be unacceptable too right? 

[homersapien 11,354]

4 hours ago, AUDevil said:

Racism is simply a flavor of hate.  You ever hated anybody?

No, it's much more complicated than that.

Racism can be manifested in bias, bigotry, contempt, or even fear, none of which require hatred.

That's one of the problems with discussing racism - many whites can rightly claim they don't hate black people - but that doesn't mean they are completely free of racist thought. 

You see many examples of that on this forum, such as the disdain or contempt that is frequently expressed over the BLM "movement".

[cole256 17,039]

19 minutes ago, jAUSon said:

You've been my favorite guy on here for like ten years. My bubble is bigger than yours. Everybody knows there'll be consequences no matter where they draw their personal line in the sand. Anything? A person can do anything? No consequences? Cole can re-word that or go fk hisself I dont care 

Cole isn't rewording anything. You can miss Cole's ass because I promise you I could care less that you don't agree