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The Argument for Prosecution


homersapien

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2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I personally see this argument as one that does not have to take place at this time.  Everyone should be respected for who they are, but it isn't a stretch of reason to expect high school athletes to participate in sports based on the gender as noted on their birth certificate.  I can disagree with Biden and some Democrats about this issue, while still agreeing on many others.

The problem is Biden thrust this issue into the limelight with his EO for whatever reason.

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A law school moot court exercise would produce more convincing arguments than the display of disjointed and largely irrelevant arguments presented by Trump's attorneys today.  That was pathetic.  They could walk in and sing the theme song from the Mickey Mouse Playhouse (Hot dog, hot dog, hot diggity dog) and likely get the same vote totals at the end, but they should be embarrassed with that effort.

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On 2/8/2021 at 4:52 PM, AU9377 said:

He actually said a female.  He did not pledge to name a POC.  He has stated that he would like to place a female African American on the Supreme Court.  I agree that he should not have painted himself into a corner in that way, but it was his decision to make.  The reason he has signed so many EOs is that they are required to undo the many things that Trump did by their use.

Yeah, committing yourself to choosing from a majority of the American populace is really "painting yourself into a corner".   :laugh:

Well, maybe if your a white supremacist.

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21 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

You know I can’t answer that, but I can tell you it’s way more then the *green jobs* that are available to the workers that did lose their job.

No, you can't tell me that.  You don't know.  Worse, you apparently aren't concerned about your own ignorance.

Fact Sheet - Jobs in Renewable Energy, Energy Efficiency, and Resilience (2019)

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-jobs-in-renewable-energy-energy-efficiency-and-resilience-2019

 

Renewable Energy Job Boom Creates Economic Opportunity As Coal Industry Slumps

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/04/22/renewable-energy-job-boom-creating-economic-opportunity-as-coal-industry-slumps/?sh=67ad38cb3665

 

Clean energy is building a new American workforce

https://www.edf.org/energy/clean-energy-jobs

 

Employment Implications of Green Growth: Linking jobs, growth, and green policies

https://www.oecd.org/environment/Employment-Implications-of-Green-Growth-OECD-Report-G7-Environment-Ministers.pdf

 

US ‘green economy’ generates $1.3 trillion and employs millions, new study finds

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/us-green-economy-generates-1point3-trillion-and-employs-millions-new-study-finds.html

 

NOW HIRING: THE GROWTH OF AMERICA’S CLEAN ENERGY & SUSTAINABILITY JOBS

http://edfclimatecorps.org/sites/edfclimatecorps.org/files/the_growth_of_americas_clean_energy_and_sustainability_jobs.pdf

 

National Solar Jobs Census

https://www.thesolarfoundation.org/national/

 

 

....etc.

 

 

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21 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Would not be anything close what has been in some reports. The “green jobs” is nothing more for affected workers than talk.

et tu "Brother"?    :-\

Look up green energy or solar jobs and find out what's actually happening.

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20 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I personally see this argument as one that does not have to take place at this time.  Everyone should be respected for who they are, but it isn't a stretch of reason to expect high school athletes to participate in sports based on the gender as noted on their birth certificate.  I can disagree with Biden and some Democrats about this issue, while still agreeing on many others.

The fact that MAGAs are grasping at things like this - and the Keystone pipeline - as being existential issues is a simple indicator of just how much better off we are with Biden.

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1 hour ago, homersapien said:

The fact that MAGAs are grasping at things like this - and the Keystone pipeline - as being existential issues is a simple indicator of just how much better off we are with Biden.

Lord I hope you are right about Biden and I am wrong, especially for out kids sake, but I see a world of hurt coming for all of us in the near future.   

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@homersapien now that is a lot of *green* jobs, but they are already have people working in those jobs.  We are in a pandemic and the unemployment rate is pretty high if you haven’t noticed.  A job would have to open up for these pipeline workers to be eligible for it and there is no guarantee they would be hired.  In years past, when some businesses have failed due to government interference, the government have given priority to the employees that found themselves unemployed.  An example of this is Braniff International Airlines after deregulation killed that airline.  It was the fault of the management, but the government stepped in to save many of those jobs as other airlines were on a hiring spree.

Now lets look at the salaries of these people that have become unemployed;

Pipeline Worker Salaries

Pipeline positions are compensated according to risks of the job, level of skill and scope of responsibility. Overtime is typically expected to keep up with the pipeline construction schedule. Pipeline welders earn the highest wages in the pipeline transportation sector, according to annual average wages reported in 2019 by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). For example:

  • Pipeline welders: $80,620
  • Gaugers and petroleum pump system operators: $72,640 
  • Gas compressor and gas pump station operators: $71,690 
  • Control and valve installers and repairers: $69,790

Regional differences also affect pay. For example, pump system operators and gaugers working in Montana make the most money, earning an average salary of $88,630 per year. These same pipeline jobs in California and Illinois pay $86,670 and $83,760, respectively. On the low end of the wage continuum, states like Arizona, Missouri, Indiana, Alabama and Florida pay somewhere between $30,380 and $58,190 per year.

https://work.chron.com/salaries-pipeline-workers-6492.html

Most of these jobs were lost in Montana and average earning were $88,630 per year.  This works out to be $42.61 an hour.

According to the Forbes article you posted the average *green job* wage was between $29 and $26 an hour;

Mean hourly wages by clean energy economy sector, 2016

Mean hourly wages by clean energy economy sector, 2016

 THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION

That is a $14.20 reduction of salary from a pipeline worker to a worker in clean energy production.  That is a $29,537.20 reduction in yearly salary, couple that with a move to another state (California) and the money you can keep at the end of the day takes a drastic hit.

So, yes I can comfortably say that the jobs available for these workers today is a lot less than the number of pipeline workers laid off by Biden.  He doesn’t care for the well-being of these workers.

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1 hour ago, homersapien said:

et tu "Brother"?    :-\

Look up green energy or solar jobs and find out what's actually happening.

Yep, understand there are a few. Saw that the Panama City FL area may be getting a solar farm.

https://www.wjhg.com/2020/10/08/new-solar-plant-could-come-to-gulf-county/

The MAGA in me comes out when I hear “green jobs” or “better choices” sometimes.

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32 minutes ago, rhughes said:

Lord I hope you are right about Biden and I am wrong, especially for out kids sake, but I see a world of hurt coming for all of us in the near future.   

 

Keep in mind that "fear" is a very powerful psychological tool that political parties and supporters use all the time to try and demean their opponents and support their positions. 

 

Obama was absolutely going to send the military to confiscate our guns and destroy the 2nd amendment. 

Obamacare was absolutely going to literally destroy American healthcare and was going to result in 'death clinics' where the government would kill any sick people they deemed not worth saving. Private insurance was going to be destroyed and never recover if Obamacare passed.

Placing regulations on businesses would absolutely plunge America into a Soviet era Communistic system with the government taking control of everything and everyone becoming poor and downtrodden.  

Raising the minimum wage would absolutely destroy private business in America resulting in depression era unemployment and make owning a profitable business completely impossible.

"Mask Orders" are absolutely a test run for the government to test how to control the population for it's incoming martial law orders. 

 

It's always fear about the future and what is "coming just down the road" that drives a lot of what you are told to believe and to be afraid of. 

 

 

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On 2/10/2021 at 1:07 PM, SaltyTiger said:

Yep, understand there are a few. Saw that the Panama City FL area may be getting a solar farm.

https://www.wjhg.com/2020/10/08/new-solar-plant-could-come-to-gulf-county/

The MAGA in me comes out when I hear “green jobs” or “better choices” sometimes.

You really need to address that "MAGA in you" if you still can.  It's a complete dead end.

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1 hour ago, rhughes said:

Lord I hope you are right about Biden and I am wrong, especially for out kids sake, but I see a world of hurt coming for all of us in the near future.   

That's possible.  Such short term hurt would certainly be typical of waiting overly long to address existential problems requiring such basic changes.

But it still pales compared to the long term "hurt" that will result from continuing to deny the need for enacting significant change.

Far better to see this as an opportunity for your kids, which it also is.

 

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1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

@homersapien now that is a lot of *green* jobs, but they are already have people working in those jobs.  We are in a pandemic and the unemployment rate is pretty high if you haven’t noticed.  A job would have to open up for these pipeline workers to be eligible for it and there is no guarantee they would be hired.  In years past, when some businesses have failed due to government interference, the government have given priority to the employees that found themselves unemployed.  An example of this is Braniff International Airlines after deregulation killed that airline.  It was the fault of the management, but the government stepped in to save many of those jobs as other airlines were on a hiring spree.

Now lets look at the salaries of these people that have become unemployed;

Pipeline Worker Salaries

Pipeline positions are compensated according to risks of the job, level of skill and scope of responsibility. Overtime is typically expected to keep up with the pipeline construction schedule. Pipeline welders earn the highest wages in the pipeline transportation sector, according to annual average wages reported in 2019 by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). For example:

  • Pipeline welders: $80,620
  • Gaugers and petroleum pump system operators: $72,640 
  • Gas compressor and gas pump station operators: $71,690 
  • Control and valve installers and repairers: $69,790

Regional differences also affect pay. For example, pump system operators and gaugers working in Montana make the most money, earning an average salary of $88,630 per year. These same pipeline jobs in California and Illinois pay $86,670 and $83,760, respectively. On the low end of the wage continuum, states like Arizona, Missouri, Indiana, Alabama and Florida pay somewhere between $30,380 and $58,190 per year.

https://work.chron.com/salaries-pipeline-workers-6492.html

Most of these jobs were lost in Montana and average earning were $88,630 per year.  This works out to be $42.61 an hour.

According to the Forbes article you posted the average *green job* wage was between $29 and $26 an hour;

Mean hourly wages by clean energy economy sector, 2016

Mean hourly wages by clean energy economy sector, 2016

 THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION

That is a $14.20 reduction of salary from a pipeline worker to a worker in clean energy production.  That is a $29,537.20 reduction in yearly salary, couple that with a move to another state (California) and the money you can keep at the end of the day takes a drastic hit.

So, yes I can comfortably say that the jobs available for these workers today is a lot less than the number of pipeline workers laid off by Biden.  He doesn’t care for the well-being of these workers.

There's an old saying, when you find yourself in a very deep hole - such as we are in regarding global warming -  the first thing you should do is take away the shovels.

But you just keep kicking that can down the road.  

Maybe you'll be dead before the s*** really hits the fan.  (I probably will.)  At least I don't have any progeny I am responsible for.

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25 minutes ago, homersapien said:

There's an old saying, when you find yourself in a very deep hole - such as we are in regarding global warming -  the first thing you should do is take away the shovels.

But you just keep kicking that can down the road.  

Maybe you'll be dead before the s*** really hits the fan.  (I probably will.)  At least I don't have any progeny I am responsible for.

The debate isn’t over climate change, it’s over taking jobs away from American workers and not providing an adequate substitute so these people can make a living during the pandemic.  Stop moving he goal posts.

The earth will get greener as corporations have already moved in that direction.  The government should be cognizant of the people that will have to transform their lives to meet this goal.  Biden is basically saying *let them eat cake*.  No plan for the American worker. 

Only by the grace of God concerning offspring.

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1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

The debate isn’t over climate change, it’s over taking jobs away from American workers and not providing an adequate substitute so these people can make a living during the pandemic.  Stop moving he goal posts.

The earth will get greener as corporations have already moved in that direction.  The government should be cognizant of the people that will have to transform their lives to meet this goal.  Biden is basically saying *let them eat cake*.  No plan for the American worker. 

Only by the grace of God concerning offspring.

His MO is to move the goalposts and to buy in to the left bs idea that the US alone can end global warming by killing American jobs. While other countries just keep polluting more and more. 

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3 hours ago, homersapien said:

You really need to address that MAGA in you if you still can.  It's a complete dead end.

Yep, Mrs Salty said no more of “The Apprentice” reruns.....claims it is weird for me to keep watching them.

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1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

His MO is to move the goalposts and to buy in to the left bs idea that the US alone can end global warming by killing American jobs. While other countries just keep polluting more and more. 

So your solution is to pretend that nothing is wrong until others start doing more?

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27 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

So your solution is to pretend that nothing is wrong until others start doing more?

No, as I stated many times before we need to lead a transition of other countries to get away from coal and on to natural gas and then on to more green alternatives. Otherwise, having the US go green and killing the oil and gas industry before our technology can foster development in other countries does more harm than good. But hey, if the left wants to pay themselves on the back for going green when in reality doesn’t move the needle as much as it could then good for them. 

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On 2/9/2021 at 6:02 PM, I_M4_AU said:

The problem is Biden thrust this issue into the limelight with his EO for whatever reason.

The only "limelight" is your obsession. :-\

Meanwhile Republican traitors in the senate are about to exonerate their Dear Leader who has betrayed the country. We have more than enough problems immediately at hand to worry about stupid extrapolations made from an EO.

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17 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

The debate isn’t over climate change, it’s over taking jobs away from American workers and not providing an adequate substitute so these people can make a living during the pandemic.  Stop moving he goal posts.

The earth will get greener as corporations have already moved in that direction.  The government should be cognizant of the people that will have to transform their lives to meet this goal.  Biden is basically saying *let them eat cake*.  No plan for the American worker. 

Only by the grace of God concerning offspring.

Hmmmm, let's see.  What, 35 (permanent) jobs vs. pumping more carbon in the air when the long term objective is to stop pumping carbon in the air?  What a decision!  (Your kids will be proud of you.)

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/24/investing/keystone-pipeline-jobs-trump/index.html

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16 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

His MO is to move the goalposts and to buy in to the left bs idea that the US alone can end global warming by killing American jobs. While other countries just keep polluting more and more. 

First, I am not moving the goalpost.  This was always about investing in more carbon production when the goal is to reduce it.  It's not my fault you are too dumb to realize that.

No one has claimed the U.S. alone can end climate change.  But without leadership from the U.S. to reverse the trend the trend will not be reversed.  That's simple scientific fact.

And don't forget we contributed more to the problem than anyone else.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/22/the-u-s-has-contributed-more-to-global-warming-than-any-other-country-heres-how-the-earth-will-get-its-revenge/

The rest of the world will fall in line.  (They have scientists too.)  But to argue we cannot lead is a losing argument.

 

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Even if you ignore the environmental concerns, if you look at the shift from fossil fuels from a purely economic point of view it also makes sense to take the lead. There is certainly short-term pain and I don't wish to minimize it, but in the long term if you allow others to take the lead and get ahead of us, they will be the ones reaping the financial benefits for decades. The first ones to get things right are inevitably the ones people turn to, and there is a great deal of wealth and influence that goes with that. We do not want to be riding the coattails of other countries in making this change.

I am not saying we go damn-the-torpedoes rushing ahead. We do need to consider those that will be negatively impacted during this shift, and try to find ways to help them cope and get jobs in the new industries, but the shift is now inevitable. It will of course help the environment overall, but again from a financial outlook, we can either do what's best for us in the long-term, or allow others to reap the greater benefits.

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3 hours ago, homersapien said:

Hmmmm, let's see.  What, 35 (permanent) jobs vs. pumping more carbon in the air when the long term objective is to stop pumping carbon in the air?  What a decision!  (Your kids will be proud of you.)

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/03/24/investing/keystone-pipeline-jobs-trump/index.html

Biden gets us back in the Paris Accord only to fine France is not meeting its goals according to the agreement.

In its ruling, the administrative court recognized ecological “deficiencies” linked to climate change and held the French state responsible for failing to fully meet its goals in reducing greenhouse gases.

https://apnews.com/article/europe-climate-climate-change-paris-france-108722d3e8bc587d9300ec189b99a07d

So Biden, who has never had an original thought, is following an accord that the original country is not doing its part.  This is why a lot of Americans just can’t get behind this pie in the sky accord.  Without being a part of the accord the US lead the world in reducing carbon emissions.  You would think France would double their efforts to get ahead of America to show the world they were serious about Climate Change. 

Now that we have a Climate Czar, that flies around in a private jet, we find that he is a typical elitist that has no clue of what working Americans are going through.  Do as I say, not as I do.  A lot of Dem Governors are that way too.  Can somebody lead?

My kids are already proud of their old man, thanks for asking.  Too bad you didn’t have kids, I’m sure the climate crisis would be over by now it you did.

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2 hours ago, Leftfield said:

in the long term if you allow others to take the lead and get ahead of us, they will be the ones reaping the financial benefits for decades. The first ones to get things right are inevitably the ones people turn to, and there is a great deal of wealth and influence that goes with that. We do not want to be riding the coattails of other countries in making this change.

In times past this statement would be true, however, with the way countries steel technology and have a labor force that is not paid, say $15 an hour, it doesn’t matter anymore.  JMO.

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3 hours ago, homersapien said:

No one has claimed the U.S. alone can end climate change.  But without leadership from the U.S. to reverse the trend the trend will not be reversed.  That's simple scientific fact.

A short few weeks ago you were saying the US is no longer a world leader...

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