FDR and the Minimum Wage...

[DKW 86 7,410]

https://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/f-d-r-makes-the-case-for-the-minimum-wage/

Yes, he actually did say this. 

Objection: Raising the minimum wage will hurt business and reduce employment.

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” (1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act)

Objection: $10.10 an hour is too much, maybe $9.

“By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.” (1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act)

Objection: Once you add in public assistance and tax credits, $9 an hour is plenty, and business could survive that.

“Do not let any calamity-howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day, who has been turning his employees over to the Government relief rolls in order to preserve his company’s undistributed reserves, tell you – using his stockholders’ money to pay the postage for his personal opinions — tell you that a wage of $11.00 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all American industry.” (1938, Fireside Chat, the night before signing the Fair Labor Standards Act that instituted the federal minimum wage)

Objection:   The minimum wage is a government mandate that interferes with the free market.

“All but the hopelessly reactionary will agree that to conserve our primary resources of man power, government must have some control over maximum hours, minimum wages, the evil of child labor and the exploitation of unorganized labor.” (1937, Message to Congress upon introduction of the Fair Labor Standards Act)

It took five years from F.D.R.’s first inauguration in 1933 to enact the federal minimum wage. The period encompassed “Black Monday” on May 27, 1935, when the Supreme Court invalidated the new labor standards in the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, and “White Monday” on March 29, 1937, when the Court reversed course by upholding the minimum wage in Washington state, setting the stage for passage of a federal version.

Today, with census data showing that one third of Americans are either in or near poverty, the arguments in favor of an adequate  minimum wage are still compelling. The difference is that the minimum wage has gone from being a bold advance  in labor law to a basic tool for broader prosperity, albeit one that Congress has failed to deploy fully. That is a shame. What F.D.R. said in 1938 about establishing a minimum wage is also true about raising it: “Without question it starts us toward a better standard of living and increases purchasing power to buy the products of farm and factory.”

 

 

[I_M4_AU 7,760]

This is all well and good for established businesses.  How do you think it will affect startups and restaurants who have typically let tips subsidize the low wage?  With regard to restaurants; do you thing the tips will be the same or will it be more like Europe in that tips are not required, but accepted by the wait staff.

I found this table showing the affects of minimum wage by 2025.

TABLE 4

Summary of impact of increasing the minimum wage to $15 by 2025 (in 2025), by state

State	Total estimated state workforce (thousands)	Directly affected (thousands)	Share of state workforce directly affected	Indirectly affected (thousands)	Share of state workforce indirectly affected	Total affected (thousands)	Total share of state workforce affected	State’s share of total affected nationally	Change in total annual wages of state’s affected workers (2018$, thousands)	Change in avg. annual earnings of state’s affected year-round affected workers (2018$)	Real percent change in avg. annual earnings
National total	150,469	23,237	15.4%	10,222	6.8%	33,459	22.2%	100.0%	$109,327,417	$3,300	13.3%
Alabama	2,016	565	28.0%	153	7.6%	717	35.6%	2.1%	$2,880,374	$4,000	16.6%
Alaska	352	66	18.8%	19	5.4%	85	24.2%	0.3%	$220,584	$2,600	9.2%
Arizona	3,020	149	4.9%	850	28.2%	999	33.1%	3.0%	$830,454	$800	3.0%
Arkansas	1,246	360	28.9%	97	7.8%	457	36.7%	1.4%	$1,017,352	$2,200	8.3%
California	19,073	5	0.0%	5	0.0%	9	0.0%	0.0%	$15,863	$1,700	5.9%
Colorado	2,684	97	3.6%	621	23.1%	718	26.8%	2.1%	$532,839	$700	2.7%
Connecticut	1,778	8	0.5%	44	2.5%	52	2.9%	0.2%	$72,685	$1,400	5.1%
Delaware	436	102	23.5%	32	7.3%	134	30.8%	0.4%	$438,661	$3,300	13.9%
District of Columbia	364	2	0.6%	9	2.3%	11	3.0%	0.0%	$34,029	$3,100	9.3%
Florida	8,969	2,397	26.7%	712	7.9%	3,109	34.7%	9.3%	$10,803,265	$3,500	14.0%
Georgia	4,564	1,197	26.2%	333	7.3%	1,530	33.5%	4.6%	$6,381,944	$4,200	17.4%
Hawaii	729	174	23.9%	51	7.0%	225	30.9%	0.7%	$561,361	$2,500	9.7%
Idaho	712	194	27.3%	54	7.6%	248	34.9%	0.7%	$1,001,496	$4,000	17.0%
Illinois	6,164	52	0.8%	167	2.7%	219	3.6%	0.7%	$467,096	$2,100	8.1%
Indiana	3,026	776	25.6%	240	7.9%	1,016	33.6%	3.0%	$3,618,793	$3,600	15.3%
Iowa	1,525	386	25.3%	105	6.9%	491	32.2%	1.5%	$1,619,966	$3,300	14.5%
Kansas	1,381	329	23.8%	119	8.6%	447	32.4%	1.3%	$1,490,682	$3,300	13.7%
Kentucky	1,860	513	27.6%	139	7.5%	652	35.1%	1.9%	$2,781,378	$4,300	18.0%
Louisiana	1,993	557	27.9%	163	8.2%	720	36.1%	2.2%	$3,271,408	$4,500	18.7%
Maine	616	32	5.1%	160	26.0%	192	31.1%	0.6%	$176,685	$900	3.5%
Maryland	3,056	24	0.8%	87	2.8%	111	3.6%	0.3%	$324,647	$2,900	10.6%
Massachusetts	3,470	25	0.7%	90	2.6%	115	3.3%	0.3%	$263,292	$2,300	8.6%
Michigan	4,375	1,001	22.9%	356	8.1%	1,357	31.0%	4.1%	$3,547,310	$2,600	11.0%
Minnesota	2,777	333	12.0%	97	3.5%	430	15.5%	1.3%	$733,545	$1,700	7.6%
Mississippi	1,204	378	31.4%	100	8.3%	478	39.7%	1.4%	$2,176,212	$4,600	18.7%
Missouri	2,762	636	23.0%	210	7.6%	846	30.6%	2.5%	$1,336,602	$1,600	6.3%
Montana	457	123	26.9%	33	7.2%	156	34.1%	0.5%	$421,124	$2,700	11.6%
Nebraska	951	203	21.4%	95	9.9%	298	31.3%	0.9%	$721,848	$2,400	10.0%
Nevada	1,396	393	28.2%	146	10.4%	539	38.6%	1.6%	$1,050,316	$1,900	7.0%
New Hampshire	678	116	17.1%	43	6.4%	159	23.5%	0.5%	$460,966	$2,900	13.3%
New Jersey	4,439	15	0.3%	139	3.1%	154	3.5%	0.5%	$336,402	$2,200	7.7%
New Mexico	940	264	28.0%	88	9.3%	351	37.4%	1.0%	$777,868	$2,200	8.5%
New York	9,535	135	1.4%	966	10.1%	1,101	11.5%	3.3%	$902,245	$800	3.0%
North Carolina	4,496	1,192	26.5%	308	6.8%	1,500	33.4%	4.5%	$6,204,993	$4,100	17.3%
North Dakota	380	72	19.0%	27	7.2%	100	26.2%	0.3%	$299,781	$3,000	12.7%
Ohio	5,309	1,365	25.7%	370	7.0%	1,735	32.7%	5.2%	$5,476,859	$3,200	13.4%
Oklahoma	1,724	427	24.8%	135	7.9%	563	32.6%	1.7%	$2,355,164	$4,200	17.1%
Oregon	1,824	19	1.1%	270	14.8%	289	15.9%	0.9%	$147,427	$500	1.8%
Pennsylvania	5,920	1,391	23.5%	449	7.6%	1,840	31.1%	5.5%	$6,840,333	$3,700	16.4%
Rhode Island	518	87	16.8%	44	8.5%	131	25.3%	0.4%	$278,357	$2,100	8.9%
South Carolina	2,140	502	23.5%	182	8.5%	684	32.0%	2.0%	$2,772,993	$4,100	16.9%
South Dakota	414	98	23.6%	35	8.5%	133	32.0%	0.4%	$323,404	$2,400	9.8%
Tennessee	2,933	766	26.1%	243	8.3%	1,009	34.4%	3.0%	$3,949,924	$3,900	15.9%
Texas	13,345	3,543	26.6%	996	7.5%	4,539	34.0%	13.6%	$19,553,032	$4,300	17.5%
Utah	1,369	354	25.8%	99	7.2%	453	33.1%	1.4%	$1,451,431	$3,200	14.4%
Vermont	301	58	19.2%	22	7.4%	80	26.6%	0.2%	$109,636	$1,400	5.4%
Virginia	4,058	863	21.3%	263	6.5%	1,126	27.7%	3.4%	$4,261,538	$3,800	15.9%
Washington	3,360	3	0.1%	3	0.1%	6	0.2%	0.0%	$10,222	$1,800	6.6%
West Virginia	717	185	25.8%	51	7.1%	236	32.9%	0.7%	$784,426	$3,300	13.7%
Wisconsin	2,834	643	22.7%	186	6.6%	829	29.2%	2.5%	$2,920,966	$3,500	16.2%
Wyoming	279	63	22.6%	19	6.7%

https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-15-by-2025/

I found it interesting that the most fiscally irresponsible states (California, New York, New Jersey and Illinois) were, for the most part, already at the $15 minimum wage.  This begs the question was this a way to increase the tax base or was it a concern for their livability?

[DKW 86 7,410]

That is amazing. You managed to come up with some PROJECTION on the same thing that FDR was speaking against. You do realizr that we have minimum wages for decades and yet somehow none of the PROJECTED bad thngs actually happened right. I can basically hallucinate any projection i can dream up to promote it because it is just a projection, as in not based in actual fact. It is based on assumptions that i want to reinforce. So, any other things o need to debunk?

[I_M4_AU 7,760]

I just asked questions as to how you think certain areas will be dealt with.  If you don’t want to engage, that’s fine. 

Do you think the minimum wage should be included in the COVID-19 relief package?  One of the reasons it in there is that this bill falls under the budget reconciliation which only requires a simple majority.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

I just asked questions as to how you think certain areas will be dealt with.  If you don’t want to engage, that’s fine. 

Do you think the minimum wage should be included in the COVID-19 relief package?  One of the reasons it in there is that this bill falls under the budget reconciliation which only requires a simple majority.

Minimum wage should be a stand alone or at least along with other labor issues in a separate bill. I think the minimum wage needs to be addressed, but cramming it in the relief bill hoping it rides along with a simple majority pass isn’t the way to do it. 

[I_M4_AU 7,760]

6 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Minimum wage should be a stand alone or at least along with other labor issues in a separate bill. I think the minimum wage needs to be addressed, but cramming it in the relief bill hoping it rides along with a simple majority pass isn’t the way to do it. 

That was my thought too. 

[DKW 86 7,410]

http://www.facebook.com/berniesanders/videos/1031044247420433

 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

On 2/24/2021 at 12:16 PM, I_M4_AU said:

That was my thought too. 

Senate ruling says Democrats can't put $15 minimum wage in Covid relief bill (msn.com)

Looks like the ref threw a flag on the play. 

[jj3jordan 2,039]

Minimum wage is for employees with no experience and no skills/training. Usually high school students. After 3 months they DO have experience and skills and should be given raises. Also when they begin to be more productive or move to another job they should be paid more than minimum wage.  Part of the problem is businesses who are keeping costs down by offering jobs that are paid at minimum wage regardless of the applicant. I think business owners are part of the problem and should pay more for an employee who will produce more than a person with no skills and no experience. If you do this you will not have this conflict between what is a living wage and making it high enough to live and raise a family on.  Mandating or legislating "living" wages will never solve the problem because that definition is different for everyone.  

[autigeremt 6,560]

Democrats want state sponsored pay. Republicans want free or cheap labor.  

[DKW 86 7,410]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

Minimum wage is for employees with no experience and no skills/training. Usually high school students. After 3 months they DO have experience and skills and should be given raises. Also when they begin to be more productive or move to another job they should be paid more than minimum wage.  Part of the problem is businesses who are keeping costs down by offering jobs that are paid at minimum wage regardless of the applicant. I think business owners are part of the problem and should pay more for an employee who will produce more than a person with no skills and no experience. If you do this you will not have this conflict between what is a living wage and making it high enough to live and raise a family on.  Mandating or legislating "living" wages will never solve the problem because that definition is different for everyone.  

No, it is not and it hasnt ever been. This is the silliness of the Limbaugh Lunatics. Read the opening post.

 

[jj3jordan 2,039]

3 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

No, it is not and it hasnt ever been. This is the silliness of the Limbaugh Lunatics. Read the opening post.

 

What does Limbaugh have to do with my comments? I was merely opining on what minimum wage is designed for. It’s not really contentious toward any idea or statement made by FDR or any other president. You could disagree and that’s fine.  Are you saying that minimum wage is not what an employee with no experience or skills should be paid?  I guess somewhere at the top of every company there is a rich guy that makes more than everybody else. That is going to be hard to avoid no matter what you pay your employees. I was advocating for bossmen to pay their employees MORE once they have acquired some job skills and experience. 

[DKW 86 7,410]

Totally wrong. that is what  the quotes from FDR prove. It was his legislation. The minimum wage was never to be for teenagers etc. It was introduced to make a platform floor for supporting your family. READ THE OPENING POST. 

[TexasTiger 12,796]

Romney/Cotton are proposing a $10 an hour minimum wage by 2025. I’d like to see a bipartisan compromise at $12.50 by 2025 then indexed to inflation. The states with higher costs of living will need to be higher to be competitive. But Manchin knows $15 an hour in WV will probably result in significantly fewer jobs. I don’t think NYC and Bluefield, WV need to have the same minimum wage to both have living wages.

[alexava 6,972]

20 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Totally wrong. that is what  the quotes from FDR prove. It was his legislation. The minimum wage was never to be for teenagers etc. It was introduced to make a platform floor for supporting your family. READ THE OPENING POST. 

Why not 20$/  hour 25$-30$? Why stop at 15?

[DKW 86 7,410]

13 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Romney/Cotton are proposing a $10 an hour minimum wage by 2025. I’d like to see a bipartisan compromise at $12.50 by 2025 then indexed to inflation. The states with higher costs of living will need to be higher to be competitive. But Manchin knows $15 an hour in WV will probably result in significantly fewer jobs. I don’t think NYC and Bluefield, WV need to have the same minimum wage to both have living wages.

I agree, but we both know without the National discussion, no one in WV, nor Alabama, would be talking about this. Thus the need for a national Wage.

[DKW 86 7,410]

13 hours ago, alexava said:

Why not 20$/  hour 25$-30$? Why stop at 15?

Another Strawman. No one is talking about a wage that high. The Minimum Wage is a national Minimum Standard Wage for EVERYONE. It was never intended for just teens, etc. That is just plain BS. If we had done the right thing and indexed it to inflation we would have a national standard of about 11-12/hour in most places and just about 15 if you factor in the major cities like NYC, SF, etc. 

I dont get why this is so hard, even for the pseudo-Lefties here. The problem is that this is just politics.
Conservatives dont give a damn about anyone, screw what they mouth on Sundays.
DNC-NeoLibs think this will hurt them at the polls: So **** the people who actually need the help. 
I used to be one of each. 

All we are doing now is subsidizing these minimum wages, wages that never get raised because everyone is gaming the system.
We raise wages, Section 8 Housing will almost be a thing of the past. People could afford and would be forced off of welfare and countless other programs like Medicaid, ADC, etc. They would and could buy low level housing, housing they would care for because they own it. They could eat better. be healthier, etc.Better schools, better childcare, better food. 

We have neglected a portion of our society for too long. 

Other wages would also raise as employers had to compete against the new minimums. Today in my plant, we have 300-400 workers making 10.25 an hour.
1) The Minimum Wage means nothing for them. It is so ridiculously low even in Alabama it is meaningless.
2) We have maybe another 700-800 making 12.50 to 15/hr. 

We are making $$$ hand over fist. It is time someone at the middle class level enjoys the fruits of success and not just the Elites.

 

[Grumps 3,693]

3 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Another Strawman. No one is talking about a wage that high. The Minimum Wage is a national Minimum Standard Wage for EVERYONE. It was never intended for just teens, etc. That is just plain BS. If we had done the right thing and indexed it to inflation we would have a national standard of about 11-12/hour in most places and just about 15 if you factor in the major cities like NYC, SF, etc. 

I dont get why this is so hard, even for the pseudo-Lefties here. The problem is that this is just politics.
Conservatives dont give a damn about anyone, screw what they mouth on Sundays.
DNC-NeoLibs think this will hurt them at the polls: So **** the people who actually need the help. 
I used to be one of each. 

All we are doing now is subsidizing these minimum wages, wages that never get raised because everyone is gaming the system.
We raise wages, Section * housing will almost be a thing of the past. People could afford and would be forced off of welfare and countless other programs like Medicaid, ADC, etc. They would and could buy low level housing, housing they would care for because they own it. They could eat better. be healthier, etc.

We have neglected a portion of our society for too long. 

Other wages would also raise as employers had to compete against the new minimums. Today in my plant, we have 300-400 workers making 10.25 an hour.
1) The Minimum Wage means nothing for them. It is so ridiculously low even in Alabama it is meaningless.
2) We have maybe another 700-800 making 12.50 to 15/hr. 

We are making $$$ hand over fist. It is time someone at the middle class level enjoys the fruits of success and not just the Elites.

 

alex was asking a question. What is the answer? Why not $30?

The U.S. can instantly eliminate all poverty by just giving everyone enough money to put them over the poverty line. Problem solved, right?

[DKW 86 7,410]

Just now, Grumps said:

alex was asking a question. What is the answer? Why not $30?

The U.S. can instantly eliminate all poverty by just giving everyone enough money to put them over the poverty line. Problem solved, right?

1) No one is asking that much money.
2) Maybe we all need to ask ourselves why we as the wealthiest nation on earth do not want to help eliminate poverty.
3) Why dont we want to see others benefit from the wealth of the nation?

[DKW 86 7,410]

https://www.facebook.com/berniesanders/videos/173509847874661

 

[Grumps 3,693]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

1) No one is asking that much money.
2) Maybe we all need to ask ourselves why we as the wealthiest nation on earth do not want to help eliminate poverty.
3) Why dont we want to see others benefit from the wealth of the nation?

You are missing the point. I  (and I suspect alex as well) am in favor of doing everything reasonable to eliminate poverty.

Seriously, why not $30? If the answer is because the country cannot afford it then it seems reasonable to ask whether the country can afford $15. Why not just raise the minumum to $10. Then study what happens and decide in a year or two rather to raise it again. Has it been determined that $15 is some magic number that make poverty disappear. This is absolutely political.

[DKW 86 7,410]

36 minutes ago, Grumps said:

You are missing the point. I  (and I suspect alex as well) am in favor of doing everything reasonable to eliminate poverty.

Seriously, why not $30? If the answer is because the country cannot afford it then it seems reasonable to ask whether the country can afford $15. Why not just raise the minumum to $10. Then study what happens and decide in a year or two rather to raise it again. Has it been determined that $15 is some magic number that make poverty disappear. This is absolutely political.

I am pushing for $15 because if we asked for $10, we would get $7.75.

That is just how ****** up we are in America.

[alexava 6,972]

2 hours ago, Grumps said:

You are missing the point. I  (and I suspect alex as well) am in favor of doing everything reasonable to eliminate poverty.

Seriously, why not $30? If the answer is because the country cannot afford it then it seems reasonable to ask whether the country can afford $15. Why not just raise the minumum to $10. Then study what happens and decide in a year or two rather to raise it again. Has it been determined that $15 is some magic number that make poverty disappear. This is absolutely political.

Not even just our country. Instead of giving aid to other countries to eliminate poverty, just tell them all to install a high minimum wage requirement and eliminate poverty that way? If that’s going to work with no unintended consequences, why not?

[Grumps 3,693]

30 minutes ago, alexava said:

Not even just our country. Instead of giving aid to other countries to eliminate poverty, just tell them all to install a high minimum wage requirement and eliminate poverty that way? If that’s going to work with no unintended consequences, why not?

Exactly! And let's not discuss any possible unintended consequences because that means that we are cruel and heartless and don't care about the impoverished.

 

[alexava 6,972]

5 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Exactly! And let's not discuss any possible unintended consequences because that means that we are cruel and heartless and don't care about the impoverished.

 

I do care about the impoverished. I do think the minimum wage is low. But I also think doubling it can be devastating to the entire country. Hurting the very class of people that it’s intended to help the most.