FDR and the Minimum Wage...

[I_M4_AU 7,788]

We have high unemployment, illegal aliens flooding the southern boarders at the invite of the POTUS and we are even discussing a hike in the minimum wage?  I don’t think the timing is right.

Does anyone think the job losses in red states are not going to cost those families more than the windfall of the people in other states?  Will businesses hire the new arrivals at a reduced rate as there will be more workers than jobs for the foreseeable future?

Its just not the time to implement this and Biden should see this, but a promise is a promise.  Right?

[homersapien 11,357]

On 2/28/2021 at 9:27 AM, Grumps said:

You are missing the point. I  (and I suspect alex as well) am in favor of doing everything reasonable to eliminate poverty.

Seriously, why not $30? If the answer is because the country cannot afford it then it seems reasonable to ask whether the country can afford $15. Why not just raise the minumum to $10. Then study what happens and decide in a year or two rather to raise it again. Has it been determined that $15 is some magic number that make poverty disappear. This is absolutely political.

Because obviously, most entry level or part time jobs aren't worth $30.  Duuuuuh.    It would guarantee the negative effects people are crying about with a $15 min. 

Considering inflation, $15.00 is a reasonable goal to work toward over a 3-5 year period.  The minimum wage is an incentive for people to work, as much as a way to end poverty.  We also need an earned income tax credit to supplement the minimum wage.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

While one can appreciate David's advocacy, it will cost millions upon millions of jobs nationwide. There is simply no way for many everyday mom and pop stores to remain viable under a $15 minimum wage. 

Brief example: Couple owns a local Bham business where they net barely over 6 figures. A move to $15 minimum drops them to roughly $65-70K and they can't sustain. Doors close. This helped who?

So why not tie it to net income? McDonalds = no problem. Betty's Boutique deserves some grace.  

[homersapien 11,357]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

Exactly! And let's not discuss any possible unintended consequences because that means that we are cruel and heartless and don't care about the impoverished.

 

Do you seriously think economists - of all stripes - are ignoring the possibility of unintended consequences?

To borrow a rhetorical device from you, why don't we lower the minimum wage to $2.50?

And while I know it's hard for a MAGA, stop sounding so defensive.

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

7 hours ago, alexava said:

I do care about the impoverished. I do think the minimum wage is low. But I also think doubling it can be devastating to the entire country. Hurting the very class of people that it’s intended to help the most. 

Why do you think that? History doesn't bear out those kinds of fears...which are some of the same from the list trotted out every time the minimum wage is raised.

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

5 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

While one can appreciate David's advocacy, it will cost millions upon millions of jobs nationwide.

Same argument is made every time. And every time it's been wrong, for many reasons.

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, CleCoTiger said:

Same argument is made every time. And every time it's been wrong, for many reasons.

Has it ever doubled?

[alexava 6,973]

7 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

While one can appreciate David's advocacy, it will cost millions upon millions of jobs nationwide. There is simply no way for many everyday mom and pop stores to remain viable under a $15 minimum wage. 

Brief example: Couple owns a local Bham business where they net barely over 6 figures. A move to $15 minimum drops them to roughly $65-70K and they can't sustain. Doors close. This helped who?

So why not tie it to net income? McDonalds = no problem. Betty's Boutique deserves some grace.  

Who it helps are the corporate chains that compete with the mom and pop businesses. They will keep prices low until the small businesses disappear , then up prices. 
     The big companies are going to screw people. Employees worth 10$ will now get 15$. 15$ employees will still get 15. Even some 20$ employees will now get 15$. 

[SaltyTiger 7,777]

21 hours ago, homersapien said:

Because obviously, most entry level or part time jobs aren't worth $30.  Duuuuuh.    It would guarantee the negative effects people are crying about with a $15 min. 

Considering inflation, $15.00 is a reasonable goal to work toward over a 3-5 year period.  The minimum wage is an incentive for people to work as much as it is to end poverty.  We need an earned income tax credit to supplement the minimum wage.

 I like the term "reasonable goal". No great way to determine a fair base wage with everything varying so much from state to state and industry to industry. I can see where smaller boutique companies in say Kentucky or Alabama could take hit. Seems that a national wage increase would force states meeting or close to the rate now to adjust upward or loose labor to lower cost of living locations. Know you have worked a career and I have as well. In my experiences rarely heard employers complain about rates they had to pay employees. Heard complaints everywhere about not being able to find people willing to work. 

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/minimum-wage-debate/

[AUwent 3,747]

I’m starting to be more for a $2K/month UBI myself.

For now though I would take a $15 minimum wage...thanks Manchin and Synema. 🤬 

Will elaborate later, but ATM I have very little hope for this country.

[homersapien 11,357]

55 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

 I like the term "reasonable goal". No great way to determine a fair base wage with everything varying so much from state to state and industry to industry. I can see where smaller boutique companies in say Kentucky or Alabama could take hit. Seems that a national wage increase would force states meeting or close to the rate now to adjust upward or loose labor to lower cost of living locations. Know you have worked a career and I have as well. In my experiences rarely heard employers complain about rates they had to pay employees. Heard complaints everywhere about not being able to find people willing to work. 

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/minimum-wage-debate/

From your link:

.......Why Raising the Minimum Wage is the Right Thing to Do

Looking at how the current federal minimum wage has flatlined over the past 12 years makes it clear: Low-wage earners are falling behind. They’re working for less money, thanks to inflation, making them poorer over time. 

Pew Research points out that wage growth has largely gone to the highest earners—and a separate EPI analysis notes that it has also remained unequal by race, with significant widening gaps in wages between Black and white Americans—but raising the minimum wage could help. Research about raising the minimum wage in 1966 reveals it led to a significant drop in earnings inequality between Black and white Americans, accounting for more than 20% in the reduction in racial earnings and the income gap. A stagnant minimum wage is clearly becoming a proponent of the widening racial wealth gap in the country.

Over 100 economists agree. A letter from the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) has garnered dozens of signatures from economists all over the country in support of raising the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour by 2024. 

The letter cites the stagnant minimum wage growth as “directly responsible for growing inequality between the bottom and the middle class,” and adds “this minimum wage increase would provide a significant and much needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.” 

The letter also says complementary policies, such as an expanded Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and increased job training, should accompany the wage hike. Such changes are included in President Biden’s $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan.

What comes next for the federal minimum wage increase remains to be seen. What is known, though, is that most Americans support a $15 minimum wage; a recent poll from Reuters/Ipsos found 59% of respondents are in favor of the idea. We can expect to see both Democrats and Republicans battle to raise the wage in a separate bill, even if it doesn’t land directly on $15 an hour. 

[AUwent 3,747]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

From your link:

.......Why Raising the Minimum Wage is the Right Thing to Do

Looking at how the current federal minimum wage has flatlined over the past 12 years makes it clear: Low-wage earners are falling behind. They’re working for less money, thanks to inflation, making them poorer over time. 

Pew Research points out that wage growth has largely gone to the highest earners—and a separate EPI analysis notes that it has also remained unequal by race, with significant widening gaps in wages between Black and white Americans—but raising the minimum wage could help. Research about raising the minimum wage in 1966 reveals it led to a significant drop in earnings inequality between Black and white Americans, accounting for more than 20% in the reduction in racial earnings and the income gap. A stagnant minimum wage is clearly becoming a proponent of the widening racial wealth gap in the country.

Over 100 economists agree. A letter from the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) has garnered dozens of signatures from economists all over the country in support of raising the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour by 2024. 

The letter cites the stagnant minimum wage growth as “directly responsible for growing inequality between the bottom and the middle class,” and adds “this minimum wage increase would provide a significant and much needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.” 

The letter also says complementary policies, such as an expanded Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and increased job training, should accompany the wage hike. Such changes are included in President Biden’s $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan.

What comes next for the federal minimum wage increase remains to be seen. What is known, though, is that most Americans support a $15 minimum wage; a recent poll from Reuters/Ipsos found 59% of respondents are in favor of the idea. We can expect to see both Democrats and Republicans battle to raise the wage in a separate bill, even if it doesn’t land directly on $15 an hour. 

The problem is that it is clear the Dems will not fight for it.

[homersapien 11,357]

2 minutes ago, AUwent said:

The problem is that it is clear the Dems will not fight for it.

We shall see. It's not over.

[DKW 86 7,419]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

We shall see. It's not over.

It is now....
Thank you Corporate Dems...Back to normalcy. 

Dropping bombs (UNAUTHORIZED by Congress) on a random ME Nation full of brown people: CHECK
Looking the other way when a Journalist was brutally murdered: CHECK 
Torpedoing $15/hr Minimum Wage: CHECK

The Senate Parliamentarian, if you dont know, neither does anyone else. a random low tier Senate leadership position has killed the Democrat's $15 Min Wage. He said it cant happen thru Reconciliation. You know what you do? You fire his ass and get another one.

 

 

[AUFAN78 3,894]

31 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

It is now....
Thank you Corporate Dems...Back to normalcy. 

Dropping bombs (UNAUTHORIZED by Congress) on a random ME Nation full of brown people: CHECK
Looking the other way when a Journalist was brutally murdered: CHECK 
Torpedoing $15/hr Minimum Wage: CHECK

The Senate Parliamentarian, if you dont know, neither does anyone else. a random low tier Senate leadership position has killed the Democrat's $15 Min Wage. He said it cant happen thru Reconciliation. You know what you do? You fire his ass and get another one.

 

 

You keep dropping Krystal and Dub is out for another vacation. 

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

18 hours ago, alexava said:

Has it ever doubled?

It won't double all at once this time. 

[TexasTiger 12,828]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

It is now....
Thank you Corporate Dems...Back to normalcy. 

Dropping bombs (UNAUTHORIZED by Congress) on a random ME Nation full of brown people: CHECK
Looking the other way when a Journalist was brutally murdered: CHECK 
Torpedoing $15/hr Minimum Wage: CHECK

The Senate Parliamentarian, if you dont know, neither does anyone else. a random low tier Senate leadership position has killed the Democrat's $15 Min Wage. He said it cant happen thru Reconciliation. You know what you do? You fire his ass and get another one.

 

 

I believe the Parliamentarian is a she. In this case, she’s correct. Replacing her because she stood in the way of a raw power grab would be the Trumpiest thing the Dems could do. Instead, work on a compromise bill and build public support— you know, like they do in democracies.

[AUwent 3,747]

3 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

It is now....
Thank you Corporate Dems...Back to normalcy. 

Dropping bombs (UNAUTHORIZED by Congress) on a random ME Nation full of brown people: CHECK
Looking the other way when a Journalist was brutally murdered: CHECK 
Torpedoing $15/hr Minimum Wage: CHECK

The Senate Parliamentarian, if you dont know, neither does anyone else. a random low tier Senate leadership position has killed the Democrat's $15 Min Wage. He said it cant happen thru Reconciliation. You know what you do? You fire his ass and get another one.

 

 

Dems setting themselves up for another 2010. Round and round we go...

[SaltyTiger 7,777]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Instead, work on a compromise bill and build public support— you know, like they do in democracies.

Makes to much sense Tex

[DKW 86 7,419]

5 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I believe the Parliamentarian is a she. In this case, she’s correct. Replacing her because she stood in the way of a raw power grab would be the Trumpiest thing the Dems could do. Instead, work on a compromise bill and build public support— you know, like they do in democracies.

You are under the bewildering crazy idea that the Dems ever wanted to do it. Replacing the Parliamentarian is absolutely nothing new. Been done before. They didnt want to have to do the minmum wage now and so they let a mole hill become a mountain. I am  sorry that this is that hard for you to see, but knowing how much of a partisan you are it isnt really disappointing anymore. 

Compromise? Where was all this compromise over the last 20 years? Was ACA a compromise? etc, etc, etc.

[TexasTiger 12,828]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

You are under the bewildering crazy idea that the Dems ever wanted to do it. Replacing the Parliamentarian is absolutely nothing new. Been done before. They didnt want to have to do the minmum wage now and so they let a mole hill become a mountain. I am  sorry that this is that hard for you to see, but knowing how much of a partisan you are it isnt really disappointing anymore. 

Compromise? Where was all this compromise over the last 20 years? Was ACA a compromise? etc, etc, etc.

ACA had a 60 vote senate— until it went to 59 and the House had to pass it. But, yes, it was a compromise. Parliamentarians are not routinely replaced if the majority party doesn’t like a ruling. This ruling was not clearly wrong. In fact, it was almost certainly right. Most Dems do want a $15 min wage. But there are only 48 Dems in a 100 person Senate and even then all don’t agree.

Funny how you’re the guy wanting them to run roughshod over the process, I’m saying compromise with the other party, if possible, and try to govern. I also said take the PR campaign to the people. Yet you say it’s because I’m the partisan. 🙄

[DKW 86 7,419]

 

Since when do Dems care about compromise? This is the same party that has done away with the filibuster 2x. Seems to all rational humans that doing away with a parliamentarian would be second nature to them by now. So doing away with the brakes is okay, but changing the paint color on the car, well that is just insane? Is that your point? Do you ever listen to yourself?

BTW, do you have a drug problem or a sanity problem?

[TexasTiger 12,828]

55 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

 

Since when do Dems care about compromise? This is the same party that has done away with the filibuster 2x. Seems to all rational humans that doing away with a parliamentarian would be second nature to them by now. So doing away with the brakes is okay, but changing the paint color on the car, well that is just insane? Is that your point? Do you ever listen to yourself?

BTW, do you have a drug problem or a sanity problem?

My problem is that, on occasion, I try to reason with imbalanced people. This was one of those times.

[DKW 86 7,419]

7 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

My problem is that, on occasion, I try to reason with imbalanced people. This was one of those times.

No, more correctly you try to put reason to imbalanced ideas. Tossing away the filibuster is bad on a cosmic scale and has already bitten the Dems in the ass already. But they are going to do it again because the faux urgency is so bad that, well, we must do away with the brakes for everyone in the future. But at the same time, they could proceed with a Biden Campaign "promise," one they obviously never meant to keep. But they wont. They got a half-assed reason to abandon the lowest tier of the middle class and they went with it.

They allow a second tier Parliamentarian to be the reason they do not proceed. What they are really telling and showing is that they never meant Minimum Wage Reform, not for one minute. The "promise' was just more "meaningless words." 

[creed 1,635]

I'm thinking back to my Economics 101 class where we discussed the law of supply and demand. The goal of a supplier of a general product or service is to maximize profit, which is theoretically accomplished by manipulating the price of the product to achieve equilibrium in the supply/demand curve. So just a thought, as minimum wage increases, the initial demand for products/services is expected to increase from the lower income earners, which will increase product/services pricing. The pricing may take time to adjust but eventually the increased minimum wage group will again be below the poverty level.

This is what I remember from 101, which was a long time ago. Please add corrections of what you remember from Economics 101.