Vaccine passport on the way?

[SLAG-91 1,483]

Put me down as a "no, thanks" on this idea...I imagine I'm probably in the minority on this board, though. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/03/28/vaccine-passports-for-work/

[metafour 4,968]

This would have been considered a "conspiracy theory" just a ~year ago.

Remember when it was just a two-week lockdown to make sure that hospitals weren't over-crowded? Nothing more?

 

[CoffeeTiger 5,099]

1 hour ago, metafour said:

This would have been considered a "conspiracy theory" just a ~year ago.

Remember when it was just a two-week lockdown to make sure that hospitals weren't over-crowded? Nothing more?

 

Things change. Remember when the entirety of the GOP was telling everyone that the virus was either  1)A fake hoax that doesn't exists. 2) Very minor. no worse than a slight flu. 3) Bragged about how low the total numbers and deaths in the US were early on to justify not needing masks or social distancing, or any precautions what so ever?

People rag on Fauci and other scientist for not knowing exactly what the world was dealing with from day one and use that as a justification for not believing anything they say in the future, but in my view their predictions and assessments were much more accurate from day one than what the "other side" were giving us. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SaltyTiger 7,789]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Remember when the entirety of the GOP was telling everyone that the virus was either  1)A fake hoax that doesn't exists.

Do not remember that. Do recall Trump saying the Democrat criticism of him regarding the virus was their new hoax. Some merit to that. A shame we had just gone through the Russia collusion and impeachment hoax’s. Planted much distrust.

[homersapien 11,362]

3 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Do not remember that. Do recall Trump saying the Democrat criticism of him regarding the virus was their new hoax. Some merit to that. A shame we had just gone through the Russia collusion and impeachment hoax’s. Planted much distrust.

Boy, talk about undermining your own argument! 

And how about explaining how valid Democratic criticism of Trump's handling of an all-too-real pandemic as a hoax?  

That makes no sense.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 7,792]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

People rag on Fauci and other scientist for not knowing exactly what the world was dealing with from day one and use that as a justification for not believing anything they say in the future, but in my view their predictions and assessments were much more accurate from day one than what the "other side" were giving us. 

There are two things here; one, Fauci deserves to be ragged on as he has changed his outlook and policies almost from day one.  The most famous one is that Americans don’t need to wear masks, changed his mind within weeks and now recommend two masks after dissing it originally.  I realize science changes, but this man is a tool.  People also praised him for denouncing the Trump administration for not listening to him, but, once again, if he was so concerned why not buck that administration to the point he would be fired.  That would have made him more of a man with conviction instead of a weasel the plays to the public’s view.

The other thing (issue), is that *other scientists* (dissenting) aren’t getting the air time Fauci is and are not taken seriously.  Yet they seem to make more sense and have been consistent.

What is your opinion of Fauci’s concern that the results of the positives at this time are not low enough to open things up?  He doesn’t say what the level that would ease his mind, somewhere around 10,000 a day or so, but no hard number.  Considering we are letting thousands of illegal immigrants cross our southern boarders and some of those (about 10%) have tested positive that are transported through the land; do you think we will ever be at a level that Fauci is comfortable with?  Who elected Fauci and where is our leadership?

[CoffeeTiger 5,099]

44 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

There are two things here; one, Fauci deserves to be ragged on as he has changed his outlook and policies almost from day one.  The most famous one is that Americans don’t need to wear masks, changed his mind within weeks and now recommend two masks after dissing it originally.  I realize science changes, but this man is a tool.  

 

The original "no masks needed" guidance was a well documented mistake and was wrong advice that was given early on (March 8 in fact is when Fauci said it in a 60 minuets interview) before much at all was known about the virus and the government was concerned about a lack of PPE availability for hospitals/nursing homes and the like if the entire US population rushed to buy up masks all at once. 

After this interview and after the CDC updated it's guidelines Fauci did start recommending wearing masks and saying they were important the following month in April. He did change on that one issue, but after recommending masks be worn, he has stayed consistent with that recommendation ever sense. 

44 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

 

 

People also praised him for denouncing the Trump administration for not listening to him, but, once again, if he was so concerned why not buck that administration to the point he would be fired.  That would have made him more of a man with conviction instead of a weasel the plays to the public’s view.

Because at the time he was the only person high up in the Trump Administration that was actually telling the truth about what the virus was and what was likely going to happen and what would be needed to stop it. Trump went on the record multiple, multiple times saying the Virus wouldn't be an issue, would go away magically without needing any real precautions and that there was nothing to be concerned about. That was all 100% false information that Trump was giving Americans. Fauci was doing a service by being a counterpoint of reason during the chaos. 

It amuses me when Trump supporters dog Fauci for "loving the spotlight" and just wanting to be in front of the camera, when that is Trump's entire personality is centered around his desire to be in front of a camera and to be the center of attention in everything. That's why Trump always referneced crowd sizes and television views/ratings so often. He views success by how many people are watching you. His supporters love it when Trump does it, but when a scientist steps up to contradict Trump and suddenly its the scientist that has 'suspicious motivations', and they can't trust him because it's apparently so weird to see the nations top disease expert give so many interviews in the middle of a global pandemic. 

44 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The other thing (issue), is that *other scientists* (dissenting) aren’t getting the air time Fauci is and are not taken seriously.  Yet they seem to make more sense and have been consistent.

I'll say with honesty that I'm not sure what other scientist you are referencing. I know that one doctor in Texas that Conservatives loved because she liked hydroxychloroquine and said she could cure people of Covid or something. She's also the one that believed in the lizard people conspiracy and that we were being incriminated with demon sperm or something. I'm surprised she wasn't hired by the GOP to be their chief 'alternative' medicine expert. 

I also know that Dennis Prager last year had various videos with this unemployed, Russian ex-doctor that looked like he hadn't shaved in years, to get on his program and talk about how Fauci was wrong about everything and that hydroxychloroquine was the future or whatever. I haven't seen Prager bring him back up in a while though. 

44 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

What is your opinion of Fauci’s concern that the results of the positives at this time are not low enough to open things up?  He doesn’t say what the level that would ease his mind, somewhere around 10,000 a day or so, but no hard number.  Considering we are letting thousands of illegal immigrants cross our southern boarders and some of those (about 10%) have tested positive that are transported through the land; do you think we will ever be at a level that Fauci is comfortable with?  Who elected Fauci and where is our leadership?

I think that the experts are right that we need to hold out just a bit longer till the vaccine has been more widely distributed. There is going to be a bigger infection increase and more deaths than needed because places are opening back up and people are feeling more secure even though only about 28% of the national population has been vaccinated. It feels a bit premature to jump the gun on reopening right as we're at the end point of hopefully having it all contained.

The 'immigrants spreading the virus' is just another GOP strawman argument. Same as when it was "immigrants are killing and raping Americans" or "immigrants are taking all our jobs" Anytime there is a problem the Republicans ALWAYS try to make immigrants a scapegoat.  I agree immigrants should be adequately tested, but the Republicans making such a big deal about it is hilarious since most officials who bring this point up also proclaim out the other side of their mouth that don't believe the virus is a big deal or that preventative measures should be taken. 

[SLAG-91 1,483]

20 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

I think that the experts are right that we need to hold out just a bit longer till the vaccine has been more widely distributed.

So...two more weeks? 👀

[homersapien 11,362]

21 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

Put me down as a "no, thanks" on this idea...I imagine I'm probably in the minority on this board, though. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/03/28/vaccine-passports-for-work/

So, have you had an opportunity to get vaccinated?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I think that like it or not, some businesses aren't going to be comfortable opening up to full capacity again without some assurance like this.  They might informally require people to be vaccinated to come in.

Can I ask, what are the worries about something like this?  What do you think the government is going to be able to do with information on whether you're vaccinated or not?

[I_M4_AU 7,792]

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I'll say with honesty that I'm not sure what other scientist you are referencing.

A recent example;

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we’d call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

 

 

 

Now add people getting vaccinated. As of this week, 15% of Americans have received the vaccine, and the figure is rising fast. Former Food and Drug Commissioner Scott Gottlieb estimates 250 million doses will have been delivered to some 150 million people by the end of March.

There is reason to think the country is racing toward an extremely low level of infection. As more people have been infected, most of whom have mild or no symptoms, there are fewer Americans left to be infected. At the current trajectory, I expect Covid will be mostly gone by April, allowing Americans to resume normal life.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/well-have-herd-immunity-by-april-11613669731

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I think that the experts are right that we need to hold out just a bit longer till the vaccine has been more widely distributed. There is going to be a bigger infection increase and more deaths than needed because places are opening back up and people are feeling more secure even though only about 28% of the national population has been vaccinated. It feels a bit premature to jump the gun on reopening right as we're at the end point of hopefully having it all contained.

So, states like Florida and South Dakota that opened early and have not ruined their economies were in correct?  Yet their deaths per million are much better than NY, NJ and other lock down states.  The WSJ article I posted refers to natural immunity that your 28% figure doesn’t include and is why the infection rates are declining.  I don’t feel it is premature at all, I think it is a little late.  The rules have not affected my life much at all, but there are millions of Americans that have been affected in a negative way.

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I agree immigrants should be adequately tested, but the Republicans making such a big deal about it is hilarious since most officials who bring this point up also proclaim out the other side of their mouth that don't believe the virus is a big deal or that preventative measures should be taken.

Are you seriously saying you’re alright with injecting Covid positive people into America and its not a big deal?  By now most state have their senior citizens vaccinated and its not as big a deal, but why would America’s policy makers allow any Covid positive person into the US?  If you travel from aboard you must be Covid negative or isolate in place before entering the US, but not if you come here illegally.  And Fauci is alright with this policy?  The man is a tool for the Biden Administration.

Has Fauci approved the social distancing we see at the detention facilities on the border? 

[SaltyTiger 7,789]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

That makes no sense.

No it does’t unless you understand that Trump referenced things he did not like as a “hoax”. Of course you think all criticism was “valid”. You posted numerous anti Trump/virus articles daily. Your obsession with Trump was incessant and a bit fascinating.

[SLAG-91 1,483]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

I think that like it or not, some businesses aren't going to be comfortable opening up to full capacity again without some assurance like this.  They might informally require people to be vaccinated to come in.

Can I ask, what are the worries about something like this?  What do you think the government is going to be able to do with information on whether you're vaccinated or not?

HIPAA, for one. My medical information is no one else's business except my doctor and any designees that I state. I don't care if it's depression, vaccination status or an oozing carbuncle. 

Also, if someone has had Covid already, especially a severe case, why get vaccinated right now? The natural antibodies demographic would rightly have a beef.

I know that if I'd already had a rip-roaring case of Covid, I'd be skipping the vaccine.

The vaccine is now available to any adult in the state of Texas who wants to get it, and I imagine this will be the case in other states sooner rather than later. At that point, when it's a matter of "won't" vs. "can't", restrictions/mandates should be gone...if some of you want to continue wearing masks, there is not a damn thing stopping you. Go right ahead. It's like paying more taxes...Uncle Sam gets enough of my money already. If you want to pay more, there's nothing stopping you.

Tangent over.

Bottom line, my vaccination status is on a need to know basis, and the government isn't on my invitation list.

[tomcat 569]

I wonder if any of the naysayers actually know anyone that has died or been severely ill (weeks..months) from Covid19...

It seems many slide by unaffected or mostly unscathed. However, there are over 540,000 dead in the US. Most people I know are totally unaffected. Some have been seriously affected. One is now likely to die. .......and people seriously want to quibble about the courtesy of wearing a mask? What a me world we live in.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

3 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

HIPAA, for one. My medical information is no one else's business except my doctor and any designees that I state. I don't care if it's depression, vaccination status or an oozing carbuncle. 

Also, if someone has had Covid already, especially a severe case, why get vaccinated right now? The natural antibodies demographic would rightly have a beef.

I know that if I'd already had a rip-roaring case of Covid, I'd be skipping the vaccine.

The vaccine is now available to any adult in the state of Texas who wants to get it, and I imagine this will be the case in other states sooner rather than later. At that point, when it's a matter of "won't" vs. "can't", restrictions/mandates should be gone...if some of you want to continue wearing masks, there is not a damn thing stopping you. Go right ahead. It's like paying more taxes...Uncle Sam gets enough of my money already. If you want to pay more, there's nothing stopping you.

Tangent over.

Bottom line, my vaccination status is on a need to know basis, and the government isn't on my invitation list.

I think that when your health decisions can have repercussions for other people, HIPPA may not apply.  In a pandemic that has killed this many people, that concern likely overrides your privacy. We aren’t talking about a vasectomy here. 

As far as getting COVID previously, the data indicates the immunity from contracting it doesn’t last as long as it appears the vaccine will. Reinfection can and does happen. 

There will be employers who simply aren’t going to risk hiring people who aren’t vaccinated. They don’t want to put their reputation on the line from one of their employees causing an outbreak. 

[Strychnine 1,802]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think that like it or not, some businesses aren't going to be comfortable opening up to full capacity again without some assurance like this.  They might informally require people to be vaccinated to come in.

Can I ask, what are the worries about something like this?  What do you think the government is going to be able to do with information on whether you're vaccinated or not?

 

I frequently see a piece of tape covering a laptop's webcam and mic.  The same user that taped up both, is carting around a smartphone, with no tape covering anything.  You are trying to apply rationality to the irrational.

[Grumps 3,704]

3 hours ago, tomcat said:

I wonder if any of the naysayers actually know anyone that has died or been severely ill (weeks..months) from Covid19...

It seems many slide by unaffected or mostly unscathed. However, there are over 540,000 dead in the US. Most people I know are totally unaffected. Some have been seriously affected. One is now likely to die. .......and people seriously want to quibble about the courtesy of wearing a mask? What a me world we live in.

Hmm. Which is worse? I live in a "me" world in which I am concerned about my actions and how my actions affect others and how the government's action and the actions of others affect me.  Someone else lives in a "you" world where they are focused on the actions of others and how others' actions affect still others and how the government's actions affect others. In the "me" scenario, I am focused on my behavior over which I likely have some control and can therefore potentially cause changes which can make things better for myself and those I come into contact with. This control and the ability to create positive change reduces personal frustration. In the "you" scenario, the person has virtually no control over the actions of others and has almost no ability to create change over any situation. This lack of control and lack of ability to create positive change seems more likely to leaving the person frustrated and unfulfilled.  But maybe I am just selfish.

Sorry about your sick acquaintance!

[SLAG-91 1,483]

6 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think that like it or not, some businesses aren't going to be comfortable opening up to full capacity again without some assurance like this.  They might informally require people to be vaccinated to come in.

More things like this would be a step in the right direction

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2021/03/29/desantis-signs-covid-19-liability-bill-promises-action-against-vaccine-passports/

Referencing the first part, some liability protection will get some of those business restrictions loosened/tossed. They're in place because they don't want to get sued, not because of some overwhelming sense of virtue. "Follow the green" is the correct answer most of the time.

A yearly booster shot (once a vaccine gets past EUA) once we start treating this as being endemic like (cover your eyes, sensitive ones) the flu makes more sense. 

I'm not anti-vaccine...will be getting a shingles shot (or shots) before too long. Those have been put through all of their approval paces, though. Forgive me if I'm going to make a decision for my own health based on my current lifestyle. If that makes me a selfish bastard, then I'll wear that pejorative and drive on...

 

[johnnyAU 3,630]

Ridiculous

[TitanTiger 20,472]

8 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

More things like this would be a step in the right direction

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2021/03/29/desantis-signs-covid-19-liability-bill-promises-action-against-vaccine-passports/

Referencing the first part, some liability protection will get some of those business restrictions loosened/tossed. They're in place because they don't want to get sued, not because of some overwhelming sense of virtue. "Follow the green" is the correct answer most of the time.

I think for some that's what matters most.  Certainly no one wants to lose everything over a lawsuit from a disease they can't completely control for.  But a lot of workplaces are like family.  They actually care about their employees as people, not just means to an economic end.  They don't want their people getting seriously ill or dying from careless customers, and they don't want their employees carelessly giving it to customers either - because they actually care about people.

 

Quote

A yearly booster shot (once a vaccine gets past EUA) once we start treating this as being endemic like (cover your eyes, sensitive ones) the flu makes more sense.

I'm not anti-vaccine...will be getting a shingles shot (or shots) before too long. Those have been put through all of their approval paces, though. Forgive me if I'm going to make a decision for my own health based on my current lifestyle. If that makes me a selfish bastard, then I'll wear that pejorative and drive on...

I'm sure eventually that's how it will work - a yearly booster for those who've already gotten the initial dose.

That said, don't overdo it in terms of putting stock in how long typical vaccine trials take.  For one, none of the steps in these COVID vaccine trials were skipped.  Because of the pandemic some trial phases were permitted to overlap.  But also, while typical clinical trials take many years, it's mostly about the cost of each step - not for medical or safety reasons. Because there are no guarantees and no protections from huge financial loss from a vaccine not being efficacious, the time and money for each phase is not invested until the prior phase is complete and has demonstrated the desired safety and efficacy.  Here's where some credit is due the Trump Administration.  For all the legitimate criticism they deserve for overall handling of the pandemic here, the removal or lessening of financial risk for the vaccine makers, as well as massive government and private investment, allowed them to proceed to the next phase of each trial quicker than normal.

With COVID, we not only had significant removal of risk, but huge private and government investment that has enabled planning for all phases of clinical trials to take place at the beginning, allowing the next phase of the clininal trials to proceed quickly - as soon as the data from the previous phase supports it without worrying about the money. Thus vaccine development has happened at a rate much faster than previous ones - but without compromising any of the usual processes required to be certain about their safety or effectiveness.

And FWIW, this same process has resulted in other COVID vaccine candidates being abandoned.  Merck had two COVID vaccines going through the trial phases and found that the data didn't show immune responses that were any better than natural infection or the other vaccines out there from Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, and so on.  Merck has since offered to help J&J manufacture their vaccine to help increase production.

[around4ever 4,139]

But you don’t have to prove who you are or that you are an American citizen to vote?  These people are crazy.  

[Bottomfeeder 244]

On 3/29/2021 at 6:45 PM, tomcat said:

I wonder if any of the naysayers actually know anyone that has died or been severely ill (weeks..months) from Covid19...

It seems many slide by unaffected or mostly unscathed. However, there are over 540,000 dead in the US. Most people I know are totally unaffected. Some have been seriously affected. One is now likely to die. .......and people seriously want to quibble about the courtesy of wearing a mask? What a me world we live in.

I have lost someone to this disease, or what they call complications related to Covid 19 (Covid 19 via a positive PCR test that detects a fragment of the viirus SARS-CoV-2; we need to be testing for antibodies before indiscriminantly vaccinating enmasse). It seems she (78 years-old with at least 4 comorbitities) was sent home with no meds to treat the early stage of the disease and it replication which lead to the second stage of the disease, "cytokine storm" that killed her.

<edited>
This is not a place to peddle medical disinformation.  There are plenty of places on the interwebs for that nonsense, but AUF will not be one of them.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Bottomfeeder
spelling

[I_M4_AU 7,792]

And now we hear from Rochelle Walensky about our *impending doom*.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[SLAG-91 1,483]

Saw that yesterday...good heavens. That is fear porn defined. "Doom?" C'mon.

She can be scared all she wants on a personal level. We are not her nationwide therapy session, though.

In her capacity as a professional, there should be some attempt at objectivity and disseminating facts, not feelings. It's essntially crybullying on her part.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

21 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

Saw that yesterday...good heavens. That is fear porn defined. "Doom?" C'mon.

She can be scared all she wants on a personal level. We are not her nationwide therapy session, though.

In her capacity as a professional, there should be some attempt at objectivity and disseminating facts, not feelings. It's essntially crybullying on her part.

There are a lot of healthcare professionals who don't like the trendlines.  Cases are up 12% in the last week or two.  No one wants a fourth wave.  And she's not demanding anything here - just asking people not to let up too early.  We are very close to getting in front of this as vaccine production and distribution ramps up.  But what we don't need are people going buckwild acting like this is over.  It's not.  Not yet.  We need to squash this thing before another surge happens to prevent more and more variants from evolving.