Do you go to church?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

6 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

I've never once witnessed a person stating Trump was hand picked by God. Seriously surprised you did. I've certainly seen this or a reasonable facsimile stated on left leaning cable news, but in each case snippets of conversations were taken and not the entire context. 

Whether you personally witnessed it amongst your personal circles is immaterial.  It was a thing and it was fairly widespread and widely known.  It was expressed by rank and file Christian Trump supporters and by various spokespeople with platforms.  A very small sampling:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-god-appointed-christian-interview

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2020/05/belief-that-trump-was-chosen-by-god-increases-among-protestants/

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/432233-mypillow-ceo-says-trump-was-chosen-by-god-to-run-for-president

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/25/why-evangelicals-like-rick-perry-believe-that-trump-is-gods-chosen-one/

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-supporters-say-god-chose-him-to-be-president-221606696.html

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-supporters-say-god-chose-him-to-be-president-221606696.html

 

And it can't be explained away with the notion that Christians believe all civil authorities are appointed by God either, because you couldn't get a fraction of these same folks to say that Obama was chosen by God before.

[abw0004 10,110]

10 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I don't really think this is an accurate assessment of the American church scene.  The dominant form or style of worship these days is the contemporary style similar to COTH.  Growing up, if you wanted that about the only place to find it was in Pentecostal/charismatic circles.  Non denominational churches were still fairly rare and the regular denominations (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc) were still doing things in a more traditional manner (hymns, etc).  Today, it's actually harder to find (outside of Catholic circles) a church that's more traditional than the other way around.  The contemporary worship movement has spread to every denomination and non-denoms have exploded in popularity.  So it really doesn't make sense to tab that as a reason for the decline in Sunday attendance.

That said, it's also far from universal to assume that the younger generation only wants that style.  In fact, more liturgical styles of worship have been experiencing a renaissance of sorts and it's not the grey hairs making it happen.  From about age 14 until my late 30s, I was firmly ensconced in the contemporary church realm, both in Pentecostal/charistmatic and regular non-denominational churches.  And what I'm about to say isn't meant as a blanket criticism or to say that God isn't doing wonderful and awesome things in these kinds of churches.  Nor is it to say that I didn't grow closer to God or experience incredible times of worship there.  Half my family goes to churches like that and they are growing spiritually, discipling well, and doing great things in their communities.  But I was tired.  For me, contemporary church felt like it was constantly reinventing the wheel - fighting to stay current with culture (and usually a few years behind).  Sometimes, it felt gimmicky.  Other times it felt more like a performance than a worship service.  The teaching was excellent, the people were great, the programs were helpful.  But for me, it lacked something.  It's hard to describe but the best way I can put it is that - again, for me - the services often lacked reverence and transcendence.  It didn't feel sacred.  There was no otherness to it.  

As I began to try and figure out why I felt this way, I began to look at the way the church had worshipped for centuries before the contemporary Jesus movement that got kicked off in the 70s started.  And what I came away with after a while of looking at it was that there were so many great elements of church and worship that had sustained believers for two milllenia that had just gotten thrown out with the bathwater.  We'd labeled a bunch of stuff as "stuffy tradition" and tossed all or most of it overboard for a constant pursuit of the new.  I felt like maybe we should reexamine what we discarded and see if we hadn't been hasty.  In the end, I decided that what I was longing for was found in a lot of those elements.  I wanted the weightier theology of a lot of those old hymns.  I wanted the prayers that had been said for centuries.  I wanted to say the creeds.  I wanted Holy Communion every week rather than once a month or once a quarter.  So we searched and found a church like that.  And the thing is, while I know my experience isn't universal, I'm also far from alone.  I was feeling that way in my late 30s.  But there were young couples and families 10-15 years younger than us feeling the same thing.  Our church and our denomination is growing.  Now, we do play some quieter contemporary worship music during the Eucharist, but that's about it.  And what's funny is, the ones in our church who tend to push for the more informal, contemporary stuff is the Baby Boomer generation, not the 40 and under crowd.  

I repeat - what I'm saying here is not an indictment on your church if it's a contemporary style service they use.  I'm just using my experiences to say two things:

1.  It's not true that the younger generation just wants über-contemporary church.  They are the ones driving interest in liturgical worship coming back or in so-called "ancient-future" worship.

2.  Despite #1, the contemporary style has grown and spread in popularity in American evangelicalism.  A lack of options in that style can hardly be blamed for the decline in church attendance.

If you really want to know what's bugging the younger generation when it comes to church, to me you can look no further than them feeling like the church and American politics have gotten far too intertwined and it's compromised their witness.  

I won't get into the political aspect as that is a whole other topic and not one that interests me as much so I will put that part aside.  I am strictly talking about why many are falling away from church.  What I am saying is from what I have believed and seen from my friends because I am that generation.  The difference is I am the current younger generation where what I am saying is from personal experience of what I am looking for as well as people around me.  I am living it.  And to my original post, the style of music is only part of it.  The sermons themselves are also critical.

You find the answer in your assessment above.  Churches that are trying to change with the times are going to a more contemporary in either the music, sermon, or both because they know that is how to stay alive.  Churches that try to do both as you say above is where they tend to stall.  You have two sides of the church pulling at both ends.  You have one side wanting traditional where the other side wants contemporary.  You rarely see this work.  It shows a church that is confused in its identity.  Instead, young adults are hungry for churches that are confident in identity, committed to service and genuine in fellowship.

Here is something from a study that might help bring clarity:

1.              Modern worship is less about the sound and more about the act of creating.

Young adults love getting their hands dirty. They’re involved in DIY projects, gardens, side hobbies and businesses, new technologies, cooking strange foods, and even making clothes. There’s been a revival in creative expression. So when it comes to worshipping God, of course they’re expecting to lift up creativity as an act of worship. “Modern” means that someone is spending time and energy to not only learn the art and craft of music and voice but also using their inner spark to express a closeness to God in new and creative ways.  And we like hymns just fine. They’re beautiful. But hymns were once these exact same creative expressions of the music of the day! If you’re going to sing hymns—infuse it with some creative spark.

2.              We’re not attracted to loudness.

As a church with multiple styles of worship, church leaders often hear people complain about how loud the music is in the contemporary services. You might be surprised to know, then, that in our church, the traditional service is 20% louder than the modern service. Our sound technicians have literally measured.

Technical proof aside, millennials aren’t attracted to loud music. No one is waking up on Sunday morning with the thought “I can’t wait to have my ear drums mutilated for the Lord.” In fact, some of the most successful worship styles know how to nurture and lead people through moments of silence.

So what’s the takeaway? Just like a great speaker, intentional use of loudness and silence stirs up feelings in the listener. Younger generations aren’t looking for loud. We’re looking to be moved. Modern worship may not necessarily have the nuanced lyrics of old hymns, but many songs are masterful in evoking emotion.

3.              It’s about God.

A recent Barna study showed that 20% of millennials who have left church did so because “It feels like God is missing from the church.”  These aren’t wayward souls. They experienced a lack of connection to God in our churches. Part of that is because sometimes we love our music more than we love expressing worship to God. It’s not about singing for the sake of singing—it’s literally an act of worship to the Creator of the Universe… and yet what we bring to the table at churches sometimes lacks the awe and wonder that comes with being connected to the divine.

Whether your church sings hymns or contemporary songs, there are a large number of millennials who simply want to feel connected to God. One of my biggest frustrations of many churches is that the congregation doesn’t see singing as a form of worship. This may actually explain why many of the smaller evangelical denominations in the last 10 years haven’t lost as high of a percentage of millennials as have the bigger “mainline" churches. Those who are not considered mainline seem to pride themselves on worship more than the intellectual capacity of their pastors. There’s more of a focus on God than education.

Personally, I think the third point hits the nail on the head.  People like me did not like how many traditional styles church preached.  It can be very judgmental.  I always found it hypocritical of many Christians to judge others for what they have or have not done, yet go to God and ask Him not to judge themselves.  The biggest thing we can do as Christians is to accept and love everyone for who they are.  This is why Church of the Highlands is so successful, and branched off other successful churches like Northpoint Church in Alpharetta and Buckhead Church in Buckhead.  They understand this.  Not only that, but they are outgrowing the population growth as well.  Each church should be growing based off of the inflation of the population by itself.  This is what frustrated me with the church I grew up in.  They would always tout how much they grew each year, but when you compared it to other church around them, they were actually dying.  When you looked at it further, they were only attracting an older crowd and the children of these people were leaving for other churches.  Once that older generation passes away, they were headed straight for a cliff and still are today. 

And the theology is still there.  Maybe a lot of the old interpretations are outdated.  Remember, a lot of the teachings you learn in a sermon are simply how someone interprets the Bible.  This is what I alluded to in my paragraph above.  A lot of churches can form the sermons on Bible verses on how they believe it should be interpreted.  Sometimes this can turn out bad and you see racialism, with any religion.  Many times this is not the case, but more of an example.  I am just telling you from my experience as the current younger generation, which is different from when you were the young generation.  Churches do need to reach my generation.  It is critical. 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, abw0004 said:

What I am saying is from what I have believed and seen from my friends because I am that generation.

As is what I'm saying and seeing from my friends and from having a spouse on the staff of a church and knowing the kinds of things that are communicated to the pastors and such.

 

1 minute ago, abw0004 said:

The difference is I am the current younger generation where what I am saying is from personal experience of what I am looking for as well as people around me.  I am living it.  And to my original post, the style of music is only part of it.  The sermons themselves are also critical.

And I can appreciate that, but much of my peer group is a good bit younger than me.  Our small group at church has people ranging from their 20 to right at 50.  Some of the couples in the church that we spend the most time with are 20+ years younger than us.  My wife is the children's director and interacts the most of anyone with the youngest families in the church.  

And I realize the music is only part of it, but good, relevant, Biblically solid preaching is not tethered to a contemporary worship style or vibe.

 

1 minute ago, abw0004 said:

You find the answer in your assessment above.  Churches that are trying to change with the times are going to a more contemporary in either the music, sermon, or both because they know that is how to stay alive.  Churches that try to do both as you say above is where they tend to stall.  You have two sides of the church pulling at both ends.  You have one side wanting traditional where the other side wants contemporary.  You rarely see this work.  It shows a church that is confused in its identity.  Instead, young adults are hungry for churches that are confident in identity, committed to service and genuine in fellowship.

I don't find this to be true, at least not in the blanket way you put it.  I mean, certainly it happens some.  Some churches don't know what they want to be so there's a power struggle between those who want it to push creative boundaries and be very seeker-sensitive for first time church goers and such and those who like tradition, familiarity, and such.  But many, many others coexist with traditional and more contemporary services every Sunday.  Others are thriving by being totally one thing or the other with very little blend or overlap in the styles.  

My church is VERY traditional in worship style.  It's liturgical.  The music for most part is ancient hymns.  The main accompaniment is a pipe organ.  We sing parts of the liturgy.  We pray the Lord's Prayer every Sunday and say the Nicene Creed.  The only semi-contemporary part of the service is during communion - the music we play tends to be a mix of hymns with modern arrangements or music from places like Hillsong or Elevation and such.  Given that it's Holy Communion, the music is naturally on the softer side, but it's well done.  But we're thriving and growing and it's not just a bunch of old people.  It's not a "mega" church by any stretch.  We tend to hover around 400 people on a Sunday morning.  But when the church started it tended to be around 170 or so.  We've added young families and plenty of people in the 40-ish crowd as well.  It's a good mix overall.  And I can point to multiple other churches in our area that no one would accuse of being contemporary in style - Baptist, Methodist and Presbyterian, who while they may not be as traditional as we are, are still quite so and are thriving.  

And there are at least two thriving Methodist congregations and perhaps others I'm not familiar with that have a blended style - either in the same service or by having a traditional service and a contemporary one each Sunday.  One of them is one of the largest UMC churches in the entire region.

By the same token there are a multiple congregations in this area that are of the same style as COTH - the music, the production values, the modern "creative" vibe, the multi-site model and they are doing well too.  So long as the Gospel is preached and people are being discipled, more power to them.

I just disagree that the only ones that are thriving and growing are "changing with the times" (whatever that means).

 

1 minute ago, abw0004 said:

Here is something from a study that might help bring clarity:

1.              Modern worship is less about the sound and more about the act of creating.

Young adults love getting their hands dirty. They’re involved in DIY projects, gardens, side hobbies and businesses, new technologies, cooking strange foods, and even making clothes. There’s been a revival in creative expression. So when it comes to worshipping God, of course they’re expecting to lift up creativity as an act of worship. “Modern” means that someone is spending time and energy to not only learn the art and craft of music and voice but also using their inner spark to express a closeness to God in new and creative ways.  And we like hymns just fine. They’re beautiful. But hymns were once these exact same creative expressions of the music of the day! If you’re going to sing hymns—infuse it with some creative spark.

I understand this impulse and don't have any problem with people who like to create new music or like to update old hymns.  But I disagree that it's an imperative to do so or you lose young adults.  I disagree with the idea that the only way to be creative in this space is to modernize everything.

 

1 minute ago, abw0004 said:

2.              We’re not attracted to loudness.

As a church with multiple styles of worship, church leaders often hear people complain about how loud the music is in the contemporary services. You might be surprised to know, then, that in our church, the traditional service is 20% louder than the modern service. Our sound technicians have literally measured.

Technical proof aside, millennials aren’t attracted to loud music. No one is waking up on Sunday morning with the thought “I can’t wait to have my ear drums mutilated for the Lord.” In fact, some of the most successful worship styles know how to nurture and lead people through moments of silence.

So what’s the takeaway? Just like a great speaker, intentional use of loudness and silence stirs up feelings in the listener. Younger generations aren’t looking for loud. We’re looking to be moved. Modern worship may not necessarily have the nuanced lyrics of old hymns, but many songs are masterful in evoking emotion.

I like what they say here.  I wish that all contemporary style churches understood this.  It was one of my main complaints in my pentecostal days - the need to fill every single second with some kind of noise and very little appreciation or quiet and silence.

Only pushback I'd offer is that what I like about the old hymns is less about 'nuance' and more about (for lack of a better term) weightiness.  Don't get me wrong, there are deep, well written modern worship songs and modern hymns out there and I love and appreciate the artists that produce them and the churches that use them.  The downside is that because they're new they haven't had the 100s of years of culling and sifting that most hymnbooks have gone through to lose the chaff.  The result is often overly simplistic lyrics that do little more than evoke emotion.  I think the music should instruct and be part of good spiritual formation just as much (if not more) as move us emotionally.  So you end up with a lot of "Jesus is my boyfriend" sounding music where a change of a word here or there and it's indistinguishable from a pop radio love ballad.

 

1 minute ago, abw0004 said:

3.              It’s about God.

A recent Barna study showed that 20% of millennials who have left church did so because “It feels like God is missing from the church.”  These aren’t wayward souls. They experienced a lack of connection to God in our churches. Part of that is because sometimes we love our music more than we love expressing worship to God. It’s not about singing for the sake of singing—it’s literally an act of worship to the Creator of the Universe… and yet what we bring to the table at churches sometimes lacks the awe and wonder that comes with being connected to the divine.

Whether your church sings hymns or contemporary songs, there are a large number of millennials who simply want to feel connected to God. One of my biggest frustrations of many churches is that the congregation doesn’t see singing as a form of worship. This may actually explain why many of the smaller evangelical denominations in the last 10 years haven’t lost as high of a percentage of millennials as have the bigger “mainline" churches. Those who are not considered mainline seem to pride themselves on worship more than the intellectual capacity of their pastors. There’s more of a focus on God than education.

Personally, I think the third point hits the nail on the head.  People like me did not like how many traditional styles church preached.  It can be very judgmental.  I always found it hypocritical of many Christians to judge others for what they have or have not done, yet go to God and ask Him not to judge themselves.  The biggest thing we can do as Christians is to accept and love everyone for who they are.  This is why Church of the Highlands is so successful, and branched off other successful churches like Northpoint Church in Alpharetta and Buckhead Church in Buckhead.  They understand this.  Not only that, but they are outgrowing the population growth as well.  Each church should be growing based off of the inflation of the population by itself.  This is what frustrated me with the church I grew up in.  They would always tout how much they grew each year, but when you compared it to other church around them, they were actually dying.  When you looked at it further, they were only attracting an older crowd and the children of these people were leaving for other churches.  Once that older generation passes away, they were headed straight for a cliff and still are today. 

And the theology is still there.  Maybe a lot of the old interpretations are outdated.  Remember, a lot of the teachings you learn in a sermon are simply how someone interprets the Bible.  This is what I alluded to in my paragraph above.  A lot of churches can form the sermons on Bible verses on how they believe it should be interpreted.  Sometimes this can turn out bad and you see racialism, with any religion.  Many times this is not the case, but more of an example.  I am just telling you from my experience as the current younger generation, which is different from when you were the young generation.  Churches do need to reach my generation.  It is critical. 

The thing is though, this complaint of yours isn't one that can easily be resolved or understood via a lens of contemporary vs traditional churches.  To be sure there are hide-bound churches out there who refuse to engage or even understand the culture around them, with judgmental preaching and uninspired teaching and programs.  They care far more about checking boxes and doing it the way it's always been done than reaching people.  But there are also plenty of judgmental preachers leading what appear to be vibrant, growing congregations.  There's a certain segment of evangelicalism that wears that angry, combative persona (especially in the pulpit) like a badge of honor and flocks to it.  And also, growth is not always an indicator that it's being done right.  In fact it's precisely the opposite  There are some massive churches in this country that are growing not because of strong, relevant, balanced preaching but because they just tell people what they want to hear.  It's about health and prosperity and God wanting to make all your dreams come true.  They don't challenge people or ever step on their toes spiritually at all. There's very little talk at all about a holy God, about sin, about repentance.  It's about living your "Best Life Now!" and material blessing.  The list goes on.

I guess what I'm saying is, I agree with your desire to reach the younger generations.  I just pushback on the notion that there's this one COTH type model as the way to accomplish it.  I even question the premise that the primary problem is worship style at all.

[abw0004 10,110]

19 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I guess what I'm saying is, I agree with your desire to reach the younger generations.  I just pushback on the notion that there's this one COTH type model as the way to accomplish it.  I even question the premise that the primary problem is worship style at all.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me at all on the style of your church, as long as it appeals to you.  I like diversity in the churches.  That way there is something for everyone.  I am not saying your church is wrong or the way you worship.  I think we, as Christians, need to be less judgmental though.  That is what I really believe is the main cause.  The constant, "You are going to Hell if you do this, this, and this" is a turn-off for many.  Instead of telling us what we are doing is wrong, show us how to be right.  This is why I hated the megaphone preachers that were on Auburn's campus all of the time.  It painted all Christians with the same brush.  We are not all like the Westboro Churches of the world.  And this may be why I gravitated towards contemporary.  

[bigbird 60,494]

11 hours ago, AURex said:

 Why is Going To Church a POLITICAL activity? Going to church is a RELIGIOUS activity. not a POLITCAL activity/. Why is is in this section?

 

 

Why comment?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

43 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me at all on the style of your church, as long as it appeals to you.  I like diversity in the churches.  That way there is something for everyone.  I am not saying your church is wrong or the way you worship.  I think we, as Christians, need to be less judgmental though.  That is what I really believe is the main cause.  The constant, "You are going to Hell if you do this, this, and this" is a turn-off for many.  Instead of telling us what we are doing is wrong, show us how to be right.  This is why I hated the megaphone preachers that were on Auburn's campus all of the time.  It painted all Christians with the same brush.  We are not all like the Westboro Churches of the world.  And this may be why I gravitated towards contemporary.  

Honestly, the megaphone preaching Westboro types are an extreme, EXTREME minority.  They don't come anywhere close to representing most American Christians, or even most conservative or evangelical Christians.  In fact, they'd view 99% of evangelical Christians as spineless apostates.

But also, I think the judgmental thing, while a problem, is still being given too much credit here.  I don't think it's any one thing.  I think that could be some of it.  But then the yin to that yang is, a lot of people are turned off by churches that twist themselves into pretzels to be accommodating.  It comes off as salesmanship rather than being genuine.  They want a place that really believes in something true, solid, and transcendent, not just warm and fuzzy spirituality and self-help.  

I think that the aforementioned political entanglement is a problem.  

I think that hypocrisy is an issue - what does Christianity have to offer me if its followers don't seem to actually be changed?  

I think the overall secularization of the culture contributes to it.  

And I think some of it occurs and would be happening even if the church as a whole were doing it exactly right.  And that's because Christ is a stumbling block.  He's what the scriptures call a "rock of offense."  Sin corrupts the human heart to the point that people don't want to hear the truth no matter how palatable and 'relevant' you try to make it.  The entire notion that God is holy and we are sinful and in need of repentance and redemption offends their sensibilities.  

 

[abw0004 10,110]

8 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Honestly, the megaphone preaching Westboro types are an extreme, EXTREME minority.  They don't come anywhere close to representing most American Christians, or even most conservative or evangelical Christians.  In fact, they'd view 99% of evangelical Christians as spineless apostates.

I agree, but what I am saying is we are all painted with the same brush.  An agnostic person seeing that person with a megaphone would associate that all Christians are like that, unfair or not.  It is similar in my industry of estate planning.  You have life insurance agents claiming they do what I do, but in the end all they are trying to do is sell a life insurance policy in any way they can.  I get painted with that same brush and it is incredibly unfair.

13 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But also, I think the judgmental thing, while a problem, is still being given too much credit here.  I don't think it's any one thing.  I think that could be some of it.  But then the yin to that yang is, a lot of people are turned off by churches that twist themselves into pretzels to be accommodating.  It comes off as salesmanship rather than being genuine.  They want a place that really believes in something true, solid, and transcendent, not just warm and fuzzy spirituality and self-help.  I think that the political entanglement is a problem.  I think that hypocrisy is an issue - what does Christianity have to offer me if its followers don't seem to actually be changed?  I think the overall secularization of the culture contributes to it.  And I think some of it occurs and would be happening even if the church as a whole were doing it exactly right.  And that's because Christ is a stumbling block.  He's what the scriptures call a "rock of offense."  Sin corrupts the human heart to the point that people don't want to hear the truth no matter how palatable and 'relevant' you try to make it.  The entire notion that God is holy and we are sinful and in need of repentance and redemption offends their sensibilities.  

I think we would just need to agree to disagree on this point, which is perfectly okay.  It kind of goes back to what I was saying is just like the Bible can be interpreted differently on which scholar interprets it, you and I can interpret what we need to get out of our church.  And hey, that is 100% okay.  At the end of the day, you and I will still be shaking hands in Heaven, with Auburn polos on to boot!

[bigbird 60,494]

4 hours ago, bigbird said:

Why comment?

I agree, @icanthearyou. I think it was stupid for him to chime in like that too

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

10 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

Do you have an example?

My own family work for you?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

58 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Honestly, the megaphone preaching Westboro types are an extreme, EXTREME minority.  They don't come anywhere close to representing most American Christians, or even most conservative or evangelical Christians.  In fact, they'd view 99% of evangelical Christians as spineless apostates.

Total side bar:  I once walked right past the Westboro folks when leaving the Super Bowl.  It was the game where Russel Wilson threw a pick at the goal line to lose.

Westboro folks were expertly trolling Seahawks fans from a secured, penned in area and I couldn't help but crack up.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

11 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Folks on my FB feed did.

Not on mine nor in my circle of friends.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

7 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Whether you personally witnessed it amongst your personal circles is immaterial.  It was a thing and it was fairly widespread and widely known.  It was expressed by rank and file Christian Trump supporters and by various spokespeople with platforms.

It certainly matters to me. I grew up in a Southern Baptist environment where some folks, probably most, felt everything happens for a reason and was in God's hands. I now attend COTH and have not once heard this stated with regards to Trump nor any politician. Perhaps it was and I missed it, but I don't believe that to be the case.

 

7 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

And it can't be explained away with the notion that Christians believe all civil authorities are appointed by God either, because you couldn't get a fraction of these same folks to say that Obama was chosen by God before.

 I not sure I've heard the same question posed with regard to Obama. But it has been mentioned previously: “Barack Obama didn’t get to be the president of the United States without being ordained by God. Neither did Donald Trump,” Perry asserted. Obviously Perry is included in the group that believes everything is ordained by God. I believe this group to be quite large.

For the record, I believe these reports were merely political attacks on Trump. But in doing so they attacked Christians, churches, etc. It was all unnecessary and done for political gain. I simply don't agree with it. 

[AUFAN78 3,894]

3 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

My own family work for you?

Sure

[TitanTiger 20,472]

29 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

It certainly matters to me. I grew up in a Southern Baptist environment where some folks, probably most, felt everything happens for a reason and was in God's hands. I now attend COTH and have not once heard this stated with regards to Trump nor any politician. Perhaps it was and I missed it, but I don't believe that to be the case.

We weren't discussing what matters to you.  We were discussing whether this was an actual thing in the evangelical culture at large that was at least fairly widespread.  On THAT subject, it is immaterial whether you personally heard it in your circles.

 

Quote

I not sure I've heard the same question posed with regard to Obama. But it has been mentioned previously: “Barack Obama didn’t get to be the president of the United States without being ordained by God. Neither did Donald Trump,” Perry asserted. Obviously Perry is included in the group that believes everything is ordained by God. I believe this group to be quite large.

For the record, I believe these reports were merely political attacks on Trump. But in doing so they attacked Christians, churches, etc. It was all unnecessary and done for political gain. I simply don't agree with it. 

If you corner them on it with the Scriptures that show such, they'll admit it.  Usually.  But rarely if ever do they offer such sentiments freely.  And never in any way that suggests it as a reason to support and pray for him as they did with Trump.  Moreover, the people who expressed this "God's man" type of stuff with Trump did so with more than just a "all authorities on earth are appointed by God" sort of thing.  It was that Trump was God's chosen leader to accomplish big things that are important to God.  This was Pharaoh who got used by God in spite of himself, this was the man God had moved heaven and earth to get into office because he was a godly leader, the one who would establish Godly principles and break the godless opposition in the US gov't kind of stuff.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

8 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

We weren't discussing what matters to you.  We were discussing whether this was an actual thing in the evangelical culture at large that was at least fairly widespread.  On THAT subject, it is immaterial whether you personally heard it in your circles.

Discussing falling attendance in church should matter to all Christians. Trump being the least of my worries in this regard, but Brad brought it up and I opined.

 

11 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

If you corner them on it with the Scriptures that show such, they'll admit it.  Usually.  But rarely if ever do they offer such sentiments freely.  And never in any way that suggests it as a reason to support and pray for him as they did with Trump.  Moreover, the people who expressed this "God's man" type of stuff with Trump did so with more than just a "all authorities on earth are appointed by God" sort of thing.  It was that Trump was God's chosen leader to accomplish big things that are important to God.  This was Pharaoh who got used by God in spite of himself, this was the man God had moved heaven and earth to get into office because he was a godly leader, the one who would establish Godly principles and break the godless opposition in the US gov't kind of stuff.

We disagree. I never heard anyone call Trump a Godly leader. Maybe a few did, but in a population of 331 million they were a minority.

The people reporting this stuff were almost always non-Christian partisans merely out to discredit Trump, Christians and the church. 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

16 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Discussing falling attendance in church should matter to all Christians. Trump being the least of my worries in this regard, but Brad brought it up and I opined.

You're changing the subject.  You responded to the mention of this "God's chosen president" stuff with the anecdotal account that you hadn't heard anyone say that.  I responded that whether you've heard people say that in your personal circles is immaterial, to which you replied it matters a lot to you.  Thus my last response.

Keep up.

 

16 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

We disagree. I never heard anyone call Trump a Godly leader. Maybe a few did, but in a population of 331 million they were a minority.

We didn't ask nor care whether you personally heard it in your circles.  I demonstrated to you with multiple links (and could have shown you scores more) that it was a widespread thing.

 

16 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

The people reporting this stuff were almost always non-Christian partisans merely out to discredit Trump, Christians and the church. 

"If it's not news I like, it's fake news!"  The mating call of the Trumper.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You're changing the subject.  You responded to the mention of this "God's chosen president" stuff with the anecdotal account that you hadn't heard anyone say that.  I responded that whether you've heard people say that in your personal circles is immaterial, to which you replied it matters a lot to you.  Thus my last response.

Keep up.

The OP was regarding falling attendance in church. Brad mentioned Trump and i opined. 

You keep up.

9 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

We didn't ask nor care whether you personally heard it in your circles.  I demonstrated to you with multiple links (and could have shown you scores more) that it was a widespread thing.

Again, Brad brought it up and I opined. I disagree it is widespread.

 

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

"If it's not news I like, it's fake news!"  The mating call of the Trumper.

So you agree with partisans calling out the church and Christians. I don't.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, AUFAN78 said:

The OP was regarding falling attendance in church. Brad mentioned Trump and i opined. 

You keep up.

Not the part of it that we were going back and forth on.  

 

1 minute ago, AUFAN78 said:

Again, Brad brought it up and I opined. I disagree it is widespread.

Doesn't matter what you agree with.  The volume of available info on this phenomenon tells us otherwise.

 

1 minute ago, AUFAN78 said:

So you agree with partisans calling out the church and Christians. I don't.

No.  I don't dismiss out-of-hand news that makes the church and Christians look bad simply because I don't like it.  Sometimes Christians do and say things that are in error, immoral or just plain dumb.  Denying it doesn't help anyone.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

11 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Not the part of it that we were going back and forth on.  

If one is not in church due to Trump them perhaps a conversation with their God is in order. Prayer is a powerful thing.

 

11 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Doesn't matter what you agree with.  The volume of available info on this phenomenon tells us otherwise.

Sure it does. Trump isn't in my head, my pastor's head, our congregations head, etc.  I don't know this minority you speak of nor care to frankly. Well other than to let them know they should seek counsel/divine intervention.

 

11 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

No.  I don't dismiss out-of-hand news that makes the church and Christians look bad simply because I don't like it.  Sometimes Christians do and say things that are in error, immoral or just plain dumb.  Denying it doesn't help anyone.

Agree, but think you missed the point of their message.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Just now, AUFAN78 said:

If one is not to church due to Trump them perhaps a conversation with their God is in order. Prayer is a powerful thing.

 

Sure it does. Trump isn't in my head, my pastor's head, our congregations head, etc.  I don't know this minority you speak of nor care to frankly. Well other than to let them know they should seek counsel/divine intervention.

 

Agree, but think you missed the point of their message.

At this point, I don't even think you know what you're responding to or said previously.  Good day, sir.  

[AUFAN78 3,894]

Just now, TitanTiger said:

At this point, I don't even think you know what you're responding to or said previously.  Good day, sir.  

Funny, I was thinking the same about you. Good day to you as well.

[tomcat 569]

Wow! There has been much back and forth here. Pick your sources(I’ll provide no additional links, the are listed above) but evangelicals embraced Trump because of abortion, primarily. Could it possibly be pastors overtly, or subliminally encouraging a specific. I’m just asking....

The bottom line is there was the ultimate capitulation and embrace of Trump by “Christians” that does not resemble the Christian values I was taught.

[AUFAN78 3,894]

1 hour ago, tomcat said:

evangelicals embraced Trump because of abortion, primarily. Could it possibly be pastors overtly, or subliminally encouraging a specific.

I recall many of the arguments made by Trump's evangelical support revolved around his pro life stance and religious liberty. I also recall much of the outrage came from partisan ill intent. When pressed on so called outrageous comments it always circled back to the two aforementioned categories. Of course that would not have made for flattering liberal headlines. As I stated three separate times in the thread context matters.

 

1 hour ago, tomcat said:

The bottom line is there was the ultimate capitulation and embrace of Trump by “Christians” that does not resemble the Christian values I was taught.

I agree to a point. Trump resembles nothing I was taught, but neither did Hillary. One of the reasons I voted for neither. How he made it out of Republican primaries is another story. But then again, he did run strong on pro life and religious liberty and that would be my best guess. Obviously, there is nothing in his past overtly religious.  

My bottom line was falling church attendance due to Trump is a copout. There is another problem not being addressed.

[AUDub 11,147]

48 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

My bottom line was falling church attendance due to Trump is a copout. There is another problem not being addressed.

You're attacking a strawman. 

[AUFAN78 3,894]

2 hours ago, AUDub said:

You're attacking a strawman. 

I disagree. The OP is falling church attendance. Many examples/thoughts given as to why. One example/argument given was Trump. I primarily explored that example/argument, I didn't make it. IMO the example given was relevant as was the exploration.