The Shooting of Adam Toledo

[AUDub 11,131]

So apparently this is the big one right now. Obviously I had a biased view when I heard about it, particularly when the prosecutor was mistaken with regard to the kid having a gun in hand the moment he was shot.

Then I just now saw the body cam footage of the shooting and there's no way I can come to any other conclusion than justified shoot. 

It is absolutely ******* awful that a 13 year old is dead, but this is not one that anyone wanting police reform in this country should latch on to.

Chicago Sun-Times has the uncensored body cam footage on YouTube. 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

It's so hard.  On the one hand, he told the kid to drop the weapon and put his hands up.  The kid actually complies.  He tosses the weapon as he's raising his hands.

On the other hand, the cop sees the gun being raised and makes a split second call...is it being raised to shoot at me?  Bang.  Decision made.  Another second could mean a bullet is headed his way even if he shoots first.

If you're armed and you want to surrender and not get shot, your movements have to be slow and deliberate with plenty of communication.  I don't think anyone could say that's what the kid did here.  But he's also 13 years old.  I doubt he has any experience knowing how you get yourself out of a situation like that the right way.

What a friggin' mess.

[AUDub 11,131]

Been arguing with all of the smooth brains on reddit and Twitter. Jeez ACAB people are dumb.

Had it been me in the kid's shoes, that gun is immediately hitting the ground at my feet with no effort to toss it, and my hands are both going up slowly and deliberately within plain view of the officer with no attempt to turn and face. Not all suspects and especially not a 13 year old can expected to act in that manner. That's my lone criticism of the officer. He maybe could have been more concise in his orders. 

It's tough. He was pursuing an armed suspect with a gun that had undoubtedly been fired in the dead of night as indicated by shotspotter. He catches up with the suspect. Sees the gun. Sees him conceal it. Sees the kid turn...

And he has to make a guess.

He unfortunately guessed wrong. The kid's hands were definitely up.

But it is definitely understandable. We are literally down to analyzing fractions of a second here, where if the officer guesses wrong we may very well be reading his profile on Officer Down rather than discussing whether this was an unlawful application of force. With the gun being concealed, the officer had to make a guess for his life.

Edited April 17, 2021 by AUDub

[CoffeeTiger 5,084]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:14 AM, AUDub said:

Been arguing with all of the smooth brains on reddit and Twitter. Jeez ACAB people are dumb.

Had it been me in the kid's shoes, that gun is immediately hitting the ground at my feet with no effort to toss it, and my hands are both going up slowly and deliberately within plain view of the officer with no attempt to turn and face. Not all suspects and especially not a 13 year old can expected to act in that manner. That's my lone criticism of the officer. He maybe could have been more concise in his orders. 

It's tough. He was pursuing an armed suspect with a gun that had undoubtedly been fired in the dead of night as indicated by shotspotter. He catches up with the suspect. Sees the gun. Sees him conceal it. Sees the kid turn...

And he has to make a guess.

He unfortunately guessed wrong. The kid's hands were definitely up.

But it is definitely understandable. We are literally down to analyzing fractions of a second here, where if the officer guesses wrong we may very well be reading his profile on Officer Down rather than discussing whether this was an unlawful application of force. With the gun being concealed, the officer had to make a guess for his life.

It's a tough situation for sure. I have no idea what I would have done in the kid's shoes at that exact situation. Adrenalin and heart rate pumping, cop with a gun pointed at you yelling orders....I very well might have been of mind that the best thing to do would be to toss the gun to get it as far away from me as quick as possible.  

 

I don't think it's obvious that the cop acted recklessly here, but it's also not 100% clear in my mind that this shooting could be considered justified. It looks like the kid WAS complying with the cops order, but I guess he wasn't complying correctly, or was complying too fast...i don't know. 

 

[AUDub 11,131]

5 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

...wasn't complying correctly...

That is how I think we ended up here. Kid was obviously trying to keep it concealed as he discarded it. Once the hand holding the weapon went out of sight, all bets were off. 

[AUDub 11,131]

I also think the officer's reaction says a lot. Once the kid hit the ground and could no longer be considered a threat he immediately went to him, began to render aid and called for assistance.

There are plenty of examples of bad policing out there. This is not one of them.

Edited April 19, 2021 by AUDub

[AUDub 11,131]

Police released this breakdown. 

 

[AU9377 4,914]

Why is a 13 year old kid on the streets at 2:30 am with a gun?

[AUDub 11,131]

5 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Why is a 13 year old kid on the streets at 2:30 am with a gun?

Gangs. The 21 year old man he was with was very likely grooming him. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by AUDub

[AU9377 4,914]

5 hours ago, AUDub said:

Gangs. The 21 year old man he was with was very likely grooming him. 

I don't doubt that, but the parents share some of the blame for allowing the streets to raise their child.

[The Freak 2,526]

11 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Why is a 13 year old kid on the streets at 2:30 am with a gun?

"Lil Homicide" isn't exactly gonna need to get up early for Sunday school.

[GoAU 1,599]

There is nothing difficult about this one from a legal standpoint.   The difficulty is only in knowing that a young life was lost and a cop has to live with that, even though he did the right thing.   

[AUDub 11,131]

9 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I don't doubt that, but the parents share some of the blame for allowing the streets to raise their child.

I can't really guess at the circumstances there. His mom had reported him missing to the authorities beforehand and he returned a few days prior to his death. 

[autigeremt 6,569]

20 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I don't doubt that, but the parents share some of the blame for allowing the streets to raise their child.

Parents?!? Are you familiar with that part of the world?

[autigeremt 6,569]

8 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

Parents?!? Are you familiar with that part of the world?

Ichy so typical. LMAO

My comment is based on several factors, but the single parent situation in that part of the city is a major factor in how kids end up. Gangs provide a sense of meaning and purpose in a world where there's so little. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,084]

https://www.al.com/news/2021/04/columbus-ohio-police-fatally-shoot-makhia-bryant-16-release-body-cam-footage.html

 

Another police killing, this time a 16 yo girl that was swinging around a little knife in a fight with another girl. Cops shows up on the scene, gets out of his car, pulls out his gun and just pops her 4 times. The fight had already been going on for a while before the cop arrived and nobody had been killed or wounded by the girl yet.

He Couldn't think of another way to disarm an emotionally charged teenage girl?  It's like the cops in Grand Theft Auto that'll gun you down for running a red light lol. 

 

 

 

 

[AU9377 4,914]

1 hour ago, autigeremt said:

Parents?!? Are you familiar with that part of the world?

Very familiar actually, having lived in Chicago for 2 years.  Whether the family unit is a single mother, father, grand parents or someone else, there is no reason for a 13 year old to be on the streets at 2:30 am.  You can't start parenting when they are old enough to slam the door in your face.

[AUDub 11,131]

27 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

https://www.al.com/news/2021/04/columbus-ohio-police-fatally-shoot-makhia-bryant-16-release-body-cam-footage.html

 

Another police killing, this time a 16 yo girl that was swinging around a little knife in a fight with another girl. Cops shows up on the scene, gets out of his car, pulls out his gun and just pops her 4 times. The fight had already been going on for a while before the cop arrived and nobody had been killed or wounded by the girl yet.

He Couldn't think of another way to disarm an emotionally charged teenage girl?  It's like the cops in Grand Theft Auto that'll gun you down for running a red light lol. 

The body camera footage is all I needed to see. It was light years different how this was initially reported. Everything happened so fast. 

[AU9377 4,914]

30 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

https://www.al.com/news/2021/04/columbus-ohio-police-fatally-shoot-makhia-bryant-16-release-body-cam-footage.html

 

Another police killing, this time a 16 yo girl that was swinging around a little knife in a fight with another girl. Cops shows up on the scene, gets out of his car, pulls out his gun and just pops her 4 times. The fight had already been going on for a while before the cop arrived and nobody had been killed or wounded by the girl yet.

He Couldn't think of another way to disarm an emotionally charged teenage girl?  It's like the cops in Grand Theft Auto that'll gun you down for running a red light lol. 

 

 

 

 

Anybody ever hear of firing a warning shot?

[TexasTiger 12,811]

23 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Anybody ever hear of firing a warning shot?

See the slowed video? He may have saved a life.

[AUDub 11,131]

16 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Anybody ever hear of firing a warning shot?

Happened too fast. Girl in pink was about to have a new orifice.

I think warning shots are something police should do more often in the certain circumstances, like if loss of life isn't imminent, you know where you're aiming and all that, but I don't fault the officer shooting to kill given what was happening here.

[aubearcat 2,132]

Warning shots, shooting to injure, ... etc are not a part of law enforcement. You are taught to shoot to stop the threat and aim center mass.  Shooting until the threat is ended is very subjective. The ended threat may be perceived differently by officers involved in the same call/situation. 
 

[TexasTiger 12,811]

2 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

Warning shots, shooting to injure, ... etc are not a part of law enforcement. You are taught to shoot to stop the threat and aim center mass.  Shooting until the threat is ended is very subjective. The ended threat may be perceived differently by officers involved in the same call/situation. 
 

I generally agree about warning shots (where might those bullets go?). But some cases involve multiple shots that seem way more than needed for the perceived threat.

[AUDub 11,131]

5 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

Warning shots, shooting to injure, ... etc are not a part of law enforcement. You are taught to shoot to stop the threat and aim center mass.  Shooting until the threat is ended is very subjective. The ended threat may be perceived differently by officers involved in the same call/situation. 
 

I think there was debate about that in the last few years, but I can definitely understand why they're perceived to be a bad idea.

[I_M4_AU 7,772]

It’s interesting that the police are now publishing body cam footage to try to quell the false narrative that has already promulgated.