BO and TJ

[cole256 17,039]

I know right now there's a debate about Bo being a great athlete, I'm not trying to take away from that convo I'm just sort of place keeping. When that convo has completed I want to talk about how IMO, I think there is a pretty inaccurate perception that Bo has some sort of amazing arm......I don't think his arm sucks but I can't say it's anymore than average at best.

[W.E.D 11,070]

26 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I know right now there's a debate about Bo being a great athlete, I'm not trying to take away from that convo I'm just sort of place keeping. When that convo has completed I want to talk about how IMO, I think there is a pretty inaccurate perception that Bo has some sort of amazing arm......I don't think his arm sucks but I can't say it's anymore than average at best.

We talking just velocity of a ball?  I'd say it's above average, not elite.  Better than average

[AuburnEagle79 2,163]

This may be overly simple, but when comparing SW and Bo, it boils down to Sean having a better touch in the passing game and Bo is probably a little faster and more gifted as far as instincts as a runner. 

 

[DAG 33,955]

38 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I know right now there's a debate about Bo being a great athlete, I'm not trying to take away from that convo I'm just sort of place keeping. When that convo has completed I want to talk about how IMO, I think there is a pretty inaccurate perception that Bo has some sort of amazing arm......I don't think his arm sucks but I can't say it's anymore than average at best.

I would love to get your insight on this?

[DAG 33,955]

Sorry guys, I don't want to make this a Bo bash thread. back to TJ and Bo. I have my opinion on Bo's athleticism. I will end my take on this by saying I believe Bo's Ceiling is Trace McSorley. IF, he can get to that level, I believe we can see a lot of good things this upcoming year.

Edited May 25, 2021 by DAG

[W.E.D 11,070]

11 minutes ago, DAG said:

Sorry guys, I don't want to make this a Bo bash thread. back to TJ and Bo. I have my opinion on Bo's athleticism. I will end my take on this by saying I believe Bo's Ceiling is Trace McSorley. IF, he can get to that level, I believe we can see a lot of good things this upcoming year.

I'd take his JR in a heart beat.  67%, 30/10 td/int ratio, 3500 yards.

Maybe cut down on his picks a little.  I don't think Bo will ever be the rusher TM was

Edited May 25, 2021 by W.E.D

[cole256 17,039]

42 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

We talking just velocity of a ball?  I'd say it's above average, not elite.  Better than average

Better than the average QB? Absolutely not

[cole256 17,039]

32 minutes ago, DAG said:

I would love to get your insight on this?

About the overall athleticism or arm strength?

[DAG 33,955]

4 minutes ago, cole256 said:

About the overall athleticism or arm strength?

Overall Athleticism 

[Barnacle 9,064]

4 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Better than the average QB? Absolutely not

IMO, it depends on how you define the "average" QB. 

I would simply say that his arm strength is adequate. He has the arm strength to make every throw.

[AuburnNTexas 7,127]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

I know right now there's a debate about Bo being a great athlete, I'm not trying to take away from that convo I'm just sort of place keeping. When that convo has completed I want to talk about how IMO, I think there is a pretty inaccurate perception that Bo has some sort of amazing arm......I don't think his arm sucks but I can't say it's anymore than average at best.

I was waiting for this as I agree Bo has a good arm but he does not have a great arm.  With his feet in position he can get some velocity on the ball. Guys with great arms can make a hard long throw even when their feet are out of position.   Bo has shown he can't do that. For Bo to have any chance of being a really good QB even at the college level he has to make great decisions, set his feet and be willing to stay in the pocket and take some hits to allow a play to develop and allow him to make the throw.  A-day showed some improvement in decision making but it also helps knowing you won't get hit. 

 

Assuming Bo wins QB1 and has great games against the initial two easy teams, it will take really good to great games against the next 3 or 4 opponents before I would say he can be a really good college QB. 

[cole256 17,039]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

Overall Athleticism 

I'd say above average because I think as far as that position go he's above average in a couple of different metrics. I don't agree with saying something like he ran a good shuttle so he's athletic! It has to be more. But I think as far as his mobility and strength I'd say he's above the average QB. 

I don't agree with calling him a dual threat until he's able to throw better. This next sentence has race stuff so maybe you'll not agree and others but to me Bo is the classic athlete at QB that is always scrutinized but since he's white he wasn't really hit with the can't throw coming out. People didn't really focus on him not being accurate...It's like people forgot to have that part of the convo about him. And now we're seeing a guy who normally is a project not have to have competition and he was able to develop on his own without a bunch of people saying to replace him and move him to another position.

Sort of compare him to Malik Willis but only if Willis would've been allowed to play. Instead Willis was here and I'm sure you saw the move him to hb, wr, safety posts. Bo didn't get that even though he certainly isn't better at throwing the ball

I also agree with you that Bo couldn't thrive at other positions on the field so yes hold off on making him a super great athlete because if I'm correct you're saying like everything there's levels and Bo couldn't come close to doing that so how could he be a top tier or even second tier athlete. 

And of course all of this is just my opinion.

[DAG 33,955]

3 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

adequate.

Be careful with that word. That is another thing and you make a great point. In what context? we need some pointed representation and definitions when adding qualifiers I think in this discussion. We have to consider who are we comparing and how many actually fit that mold. I just looked at some rushing stats and tbh, there aren't many QBs who dominate the game with their legs, so it is hard to even qualify athleticism in terms of impact of the game. Last year, MW was the top one in the nation based on stats alone.

[cole256 17,039]

7 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

IMO, it depends on how you define the "average" QB. 

I would simply say that his arm strength is adequate. He has the arm strength to make every throw.

I think maybe. The 15 yard out route I don't know. I actually have to see more but in my opinion Bo never zips the ball to anybody. It's always a sort of lob on the ball when he throws intermediate to long balls. The closest I've seen is either his throw in the bammer game or my favorite throw of his was actually his first game against Oregon. 

I'm also aware that may have something to do with his accuracybut I also think throwing hard with control is part of athleticism. I guess like I said I just need to see a bit more.

[DAG 33,955]

8 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I'd say above average because I think as far as that position go he's above average in a couple of different metrics. I don't agree with saying something like he ran a good shuttle so he's athletic! It has to be more. But I think as far as his mobility and strength I'd say he's above the average QB. 

I don't agree with calling him a dual threat until he's able to throw better. This next sentence has race stuff so maybe you'll not agree and others but to me Bo is the classic athlete at QB that is always scrutinized but since he's white he wasn't really hit with the can't throw coming out. People didn't really focus on him not being accurate...It's like people forgot to have that part of the convo about him. And now we're seeing a guy who normally is a project not have to have competition and he was able to develop on his own without a bunch of people saying to replace him and move him to another position.

Sort of compare him to Malik Willis but only if Willis would've been allowed to play. Instead Willis was here and I'm sure you saw the move him to hb, wr, safety posts. Bo didn't get that even though he certainly isn't better at throwing the ball

I also agree with you that Bo couldn't thrive at other positions on the field so yes hold off on making him a super great athlete because if I'm correct you're saying like everything there's levels and Bo couldn't come close to doing that so how could he be a top tier or even second tier athlete. 

And of course all of this is just my opinion.

Thanks for the post. I agree with pretty much all of this actually. And I am going to be real, I don't think Bo nix could switch positions. Just my opinion. Do not shoot the messenger. I think that is a major reason why he isn't asked to do it. Prime example, Trace McSorley was asked by at least one team during the combine would he mine trying out as a DB (Which he refused). There is a reason why at least one team requested that.

[cole256 17,039]

Oh and I think Bo has shown he needs his feet to be right to make decent throws, I think the elite or to wear the gunslinger tag those guys arms are so strong that they make strong accurate throws regardless of that. Literally they generate a crazy amount of velocity just with their arms. 

And lastly not to sound like an ass but if Bo was doing any type of amazing throws or anything close to it, I just think it would be publicized and hyped up and talked about. But that's just me

[Barnacle 9,064]

Just now, cole256 said:

I think maybe. The 15 yard out route I don't know. I actually have to see more but in my opinion Bo never zips the ball to anybody. It's always a sort of lob on the ball when he throws intermediate to long balls. The closest I've seen is either his throw in the bammer game or my favorite throw of his was actually his first game against Oregon. 

I'm also aware that may have something to do with his accuracybut I also think throwing hard with control is part of athleticism. I guess like I said I just need to see a bit more.

I've seen him make the 15 yard out route, although that wasn't exactly a staple in our offense under Gus. Anyway, I'm not saying his arm is anything special, I just have zero concern over it, especially when he gets his feet set. Agree about the athleticism. I think Bo is a good athlete. Is he exceptional, even for his position? No. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

2 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Oh and I think Bo has shown he needs his feet to be right to make decent throws, I think the elite or to wear the gunslinger tag those guys arms are so strong that they make strong accurate throws regardless of that. Literally they generate a crazy amount of velocity just with their arms. 

And lastly not to sound like an ass but if Bo was doing any type of amazing throws or anything close to it, I just think it would be publicized and hyped up and talked about. But that's just me

We're on the same page

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,641]

19 minutes ago, cole256 said:

People didn't really focus on him not being accurate...It's like people forgot to have that part of the convo about him

It’s really funny, someone on here posted he was a sub 60%, like mid 50s% completion rating passer in HS during the midst of his freshman year...and it was an actual revelation on here for a while. I followed the coverage on him as a recruit pretty decently...NEVER got covered

We really have no evidence for him as a player to become a truly accurate guy by this point, and while I don’t like the doomsday narrative, I just wonder why it wasn’t at least suggested early on with how many other QBs here got the “project” label 

[abw0004 10,107]

I do think we should consider Bo just like we are considering TJ.  TJ has largely gotten a pass for his underperformance at LSU but why doesn't Nix receive the same treatment?

Here are some comparisons to consider:

• Both were taught the mechanics of being a quarterback by their fathers.
• Both were early-enrollees as freshmen.
• Both were starters as freshmen.
• Both had below-average offensive lines.
• Both did have talent at WR, TE, and RB to bail them out.
• Both may have been victims of their previous coaching staffs.

I bring this up because we may be counting Bo out before he receives a chance to prove himself with the new coaching staff.  Both QB's situations seem very similar to me and while I am open to the QB competition, I don't want us to count Bo out when we are giving TJ a pass for the very same reasons. Each have unique skillsets, so let them compete, and let the best man win.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by abw0004

[cole256 17,039]

6 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

I've seen him make the 15 yard out route, although that wasn't exactly a staple in our offense under Gus. Anyway, I'm not saying his arm is anything special, I just have zero concern over it, especially when he gets his feet set. Agree about the athleticism. I think Bo is a good athlete. Is he exceptional, even for his position? No. 

I'm not saying I worry over it, I'm saying as far as saying he's a higher tier as far as his arm I don't think he's shown that on film yet. He just rarely even attempted to make challenging throws. Our guys would either have to be wide open or catch a jump ball most times 

But I don't think he has a weak arm either. I think it's average compared to the other QB's that played in our conference. I don't think it's stronger than guys like Florida's QB or Frank's, or the guy coming here. But I think it was probably better than vandy's QB and some other's. 

I think we're saying the same thing

[DAG 33,955]

4 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

 TJ has largely gotten a pass

That is false. I know I've seen flex talk about flaws in his game. In fact, I have said that it is all based on potential, which means he has not done a dang thing yet. I would love to have this discussion with you, but I really don't want to do it under a narrative like that unless it is proven otherwise.

Edited May 25, 2021 by DAG

[metafour 4,958]

1 hour ago, DAG said:

Do you know the definition of adequate? It is satisfactory.  He averaged about 3.4 yards per carry last year. If the lane is open he can get yards. If it breaks down he can leave the pocket and gain some yards. But he is not someone who at any moment is going to break multiple yards for TDs. A good athlete to me is someone like Malik Willis. Another reference is Dak Prescott.  A great Athlete is Lamar Jackson. I would love to see Bo Nix run against Bama or Georgia. Please show me that because supposedly he is a five star dual threat  QB.  I WOULD love for someone to scheme around his only tool as you put it politely. You mentioned he is more athletic than most QBs? In what context? Is he more athletic than pro style QB Matt Corral? 

You just said he is a good athlete because he can move and take hits. Is that the qualifier now? Do you consider Joe Burrow a good athlete?

 

You can show me all the PFF quotes. I can also show you the Kirk Herbstriet quotes too about how great of a dual threat he is, but I WANT TO SEE IT ON THE FIELD. This is exactly why he gets the hate he gets. People overhype the dude and then when he doesn't produce, people are like "Wait this is the next one?"

So Bo Nix, who averaged 3.4 yards per carry (an NCAA stat that is skewed for QB's because it includes yards lost to sacks btw) is just "adequate", but under your own "evaluation" Dak Prescott - who averaged 3.7 yards per carry in his final season at MSU - is "good"? Very interesting...

Malik Willis is also much better than just "good" - so the issue seems to be that your own scale is wonky and not aligned with how anyone else would gauge "athleticism". Malik Willis is one of the best athletes and runners playing the position currently in the NCAA - if not THE best.

Athleticism at the QB position has nothing to do with how many rushing yards a QB has, or what their YPC average is, or whether or not they are "dual threat" or "pro-style". Do me a favor and go look up Russell Wilson's collegiate rushing stats - its a 3.2 ypc career average. Despite that, Russell Wilson is CLEARLY a GOOD athlete at QB. Josh Allen is another example of a guy who wasn't used a runner at all in his final season at Wyoming, and yet he is CLEARLY an above-average athlete at the position.

Bo Nix is ABOVE AVERAGE by way of evaluation of the athletic traits that he shows on the football field. The term "above average" is in comparison to OTHER quarterbacks - most of whom are not as athletic as he is. It's really not that complicated. He makes athletic plays that most other quarterbacks, at this level, are not able to make. That makes him "above average".

[abw0004 10,107]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

That is false. Several of has said that TJ had bad games. In fact, I have said that it is all based on potential, which means he has not done a dang thing yet. I would love to have this discussion with you, but I really don't want to do it under a narrative like that unless it is proven otherwise.

This was not directed at you (although I can now see how you would take it this way now that I saw your discussion with Meta).  In fact, I think you have been very fair in this thread, along with posters like Cole, Malcom, etc.  Others haven't been this way though.  This was really directed at the masses.

Edited May 25, 2021 by abw0004

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, DAG said:

That is false. Several of has said that TJ had bad games. In fact, I have said that it is all based on potential, which means he has not done a dang thing yet. I would love to have this discussion with you, but I really don't want to do it under a narrative like that unless it is proven otherwise.

Um, yeah. The only time that TJ has been offered any "passes" was when people tried to suggest that Bo was at some massive disadvantage comparatively because he played for Gus, as if Finley was somehow playing for 2019 LSU.

"But he got pulled from games..."  Um, yeah. Bo should've gotten yanked multiple times as a true freshman, too. Except he had a coach who absolutely would not pull him under literally any conditions whatsoever. 

It's crap like that. It's always dumb crap like that.

See what I mean, @cole256? It's even the same people.