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"WR and TEs aren't creating separation" (or are they?)


W.E.D

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16 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

It definately wasn't as bad of a throw as the throw to Fromm and the 1st throw to DRob.

He tried to back shoulder that ball to Fromm and missed badly. When was that first one to DRob?

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8 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Replacing Bo really hasn't crossed my mind. I guess because I don't know about Finley either. 

Ah, gotcha.  I think you were talking about Bo/Clifford switch.  I think that's a carry over from the other thread and didn't think that's what you meant.

Clifford played out of his mind, better than he probably has in any big game.  Credit goes to him for making plays.

10 minutes ago, cole256 said:

To be honest Bo really has to fix the deep ball stuff because I don't know what we will do if he can't. I wish we had a back up that was already established and we would just get DD ready

Yeah agree.  He goes from 0% to even 33% and we've got a different game.  Not to mention momentum swings, defensive rest, etc.  I don't know the exact games, but we've had losses in the past where he's missed wide open WRs deep, but typically they were overthrown by a long shot.

There is another pay in the 1st that I didn't take screen shots of where Shed kinda beat his guy and Bo had a clean pocket but he does some ridiculous shot put type throw where his fee are almost parallel.  It was under thrown, Shed has to slow down and it was at best a 50/50 ball and the DB easily broke it up b/c Shed kinda had to catch it off the DBs back.

It's just frustrating

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2 minutes ago, ValleyTiger said:

He tried to back shoulder that ball to Fromm and missed badly. When was that first one to DRob?

The back shoulder throw to Kobe was really nice and an amazing catch by him.  I'm not sure that pass to Fromm was a back shoulder.  There was no reason to do that b/c Fromm had his guy beat down the field.  A back shoulder throw would have been into the guy covering him.

The 1st throw to DRob was the 1st post ITT.  It was the endzone shot down the right sideline

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5 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

The back shoulder throw to Kobe was really nice and an amazing catch by him.  I'm not sure that pass to Fromm was a back shoulder.  There was no reason to do that b/c Fromm had his guy beat down the field.  A back shoulder throw would have been into the guy covering him.

The 1st throw to DRob was the 1st post ITT.  It was the endzone shot down the right sideline

He put a back shoulder on Shenker that was nice, too. 

The one to Fromm, he climbs the pocket and looks like he aims it at the back shoulder. It was a bad miss. No doubt a good throw gets Fromm a huge completion on 3rd down.

Gotcha, thought for a second you were bringing up another separate target to DRob.

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Nice post, OP. I think we all know they can’t get separation but putting visually helps understand it better. 
 

Shenker has been fantastic. I know he’s not super fast but he’s been open a lot. He will be a catalyst all season 

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3 hours ago, cole256 said:

That's my point as far as the switch QB thing.....if psu miss one of the big plays to their tight end they probably don't win. It's that important. 

If we would’ve held PSU to a FG on one of their red zone trips, specifically the one where the RB walked in for a easy TD on 3rd and goal, and Bo completes one of those bombs for a TD, I feel like we would’ve won the game

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19 hours ago, W.E.D said:

These have been some of the criticisms, and at times accurate.  But we aren't really going into the times they are in position to make plays but don't have the opportunity to do so.

I've got a couple posts lined up outlining a few of these....

 

Any chance you can get a good view of the 4th and 2 fade route? Listened to Cole Cubelic and Greg McElroy this morning and McElroy's take was similar to what I thought I saw, i.e. that even if the receiver didn't get tangled up with the DB, the pass was out of bounds and uncatchable.

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7 minutes ago, CleCoTiger said:

Any chance you can get a good view of the 4th and 2 fade route? Listened to Cole Cubelic and Greg McElroy this morning and McElroy's take was similar to what I thought I saw, i.e. that even if the receiver didn't get tangled up with the DB, the pass was out of bounds and uncatchable.

that's what it seemed to me. which leads credence to the suspicion that they he was only looking for a PI call. either that or he has no business ever throwing that pass again.

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34 minutes ago, CleCoTiger said:

Any chance you can get a good view of the 4th and 2 fade route? Listened to Cole Cubelic and Greg McElroy this morning and McElroy's take was similar to what I thought I saw, i.e. that even if the receiver didn't get tangled up with the DB, the pass was out of bounds and uncatchable.

20:17 mark in the video I posted earlier in the thread for the SkyCam view.

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4 hours ago, EastAl_Tiger said:

1st drive, D Rob had his man beat almost from the get go. Ball needs to hit him in the hands down the sideline at the goal line. easy 6 pts. Nix panics because 17 is bearing down on him and just heaves it. ball is way left and way way long.

The second D Rob miss on the left side, I ve watched it over and over and still don'e know if it was catchable or not, although I'm leaning "not".  Again he's got his man beat. If Nix just makes the throw, 6 pts. There was no need to intentionally throw to the outside there.(which I doubt was the case.)

I think on the 2 deeper passes down the left and right side to Robertson, in both cases, after seeing the replays, it seems to me that Bo(has he has done at times in the past 2 years), waits to see Robertson separate from the DB before Bo throws it. And as he does wait, he is getting a little more pressure from the pass rush(especially on the pass down the left side).

On that play down the left side, Robertson begins to separate from the DB near the goal line, and Bo waits a split second too late causing him to rush it and he is turning away as he chunks it causing it to fade to the outside of the sideline. If Bo throws it ANTICIPATING Robertson is going to break away, then it needs to throw it inside the EZ pylon, and it is a TD. Robertson looking for the ball had nothing to do with him losing it in the lights.  

Your sky cam images do a good job of showing whats going around Bo, and seems to show he had some good pocket protection most of the time.

 

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15 minutes ago, CleCoTiger said:

Any chance you can get a good view of the 4th and 2 fade route? Listened to Cole Cubelic and Greg McElroy this morning and McElroy's take was similar to what I thought I saw, i.e. that even if the receiver didn't get tangled up with the DB, the pass was out of bounds and uncatchable.

I have been looking for a better view of that play in particular as well.

I was listening to one of the podcast guys (Zac or Justin maybe?) and they were talking about when they took another look into the footage there were a couple of things that stood out.

One- it looked like the receivers on the right side were running a pick/rub route combo and then could not get pass their defenders. Based on what you just said, that makes sense- despite the errant throw.

Two- the TE and Tank were pretty wide open on the play.

It does look like the play was a good one, but the execution was not good at all.

 

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3 minutes ago, TJRanger175 said:

I have been looking for a better view of that play in particular as well.

I was listening to one of the podcast guys (Zac or Justin maybe?) and they were talking about when they took another look into the footage there were a couple of things that stood out.

One- it looked like the receivers on the right side were running a pick/rub route combo and then could not get pass their defenders. Based on what you just said, that makes sense- despite the errant throw.

Two- the TE and Tank were pretty wide open on the play.

It does look like the play was a good one, but the execution was not good at all.

 

That's what I wanted a reporter yesterday to ask..."was the play on 4th 2, executed correctly by our players? If that is the case, then the problem is that Bo with all his options, picked the low percentage option, which had no chance. 

On the TE and Tank..To me on a slow mo-ing the replay, the TE is NOT open as he gets sandwiched at the Goal line by 2 defenders. Now tank would have been open ofc, but you have to freeze the play just before Bo turns his head to throw it to Hudson to see where Tank is and the Penn St defenders. They overloaded that side, and yes Bo could have gotten it to Tank, but Tank was going to have to break a tackle to get to the EZ. If continue on to see the TE and Tank open as he goes towards the middle, well, by that time everyone could see Bo was throwing it to his right, and everyone tended to move that way by then...

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3 hours ago, woodford said:

Nice post, OP. I think we all know they can’t get separation but putting visually helps understand it better. 

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but initially my title was in quotes b/c it was the commentary of the board/internet...not directly my statements.  I'm still not sure why @WarTiger changed the title making it look like I said they can't get separation.

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15 minutes ago, TJRanger175 said:

I have been looking for a better view of that play in particular as well.

I was listening to one of the podcast guys (Zac or Justin maybe?) and they were talking about when they took another look into the footage there were a couple of things that stood out.

One- it looked like the receivers on the right side were running a pick/rub route combo and then could not get pass their defenders. Based on what you just said, that makes sense- despite the errant throw.

Two- the TE and Tank were pretty wide open on the play.

It does look like the play was a good one, but the execution was not good at all.

 

The "good play, poor execution" take was the Cubelic/McElroy opinion as well.

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19 minutes ago, ValleyTiger said:

20:17 mark in the video I posted earlier in the thread for the SkyCam view.

Thanks. Pass definitely landed a few yards out of bounds. Don't know if that means it was uncatchable for sure, but it was long. (Link cued to the play.)

 

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51 minutes ago, CleCoTiger said:

Any chance you can get a good view of the 4th and 2 fade route? Listened to Cole Cubelic and Greg McElroy this morning and McElroy's take was similar to what I thought I saw, i.e. that even if the receiver didn't get tangled up with the DB, the pass was out of bounds and uncatchable.

It's in the Tank Angle route topic.  The ball might have landed like a yard out of bounds, but at 6' or where the WR would have jumped to catch it was catchable inbounds.  I'm not sure about timing of the two meeting at that point if the WR could have gotten cleanly off the line.

Tried to pause it as closely as possible.  From the Sky Cam, it doesn't look like the ball is more than 4-6' above the sideline, so it's catchable.  Last pick is maybe a few frames before it hit the ground, tried a few times and this was as best I could get.  yeah, it did land 2 yards out of bounds?  But just b/c the ball lands out of bounds doesn't mean it isn't catchable.  You don't have to catch a ball in the spot it touches the ground.

I'd say timing of the ball meeting the WR is probably a limiting factor moreso than the ball placement.

ball1.JPG

ball2.JPG

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3 minutes ago, CleCoTiger said:

Thanks. Pass definitely landed a few yards out of bounds. Don't know if that means it was uncatchable for sure, but it was long. (Link cued to the play.)

 

Ball looks uncatchable.

Was Hudson held?

His body positioning is confusing to me... did he fall down or was he "helped" down?

(Wish I knew the rules better... maybe someone can enlighten me)

Shenker and Tank were pretty open.

 

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6 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

It's in the Tank Angle route topic.  The ball might have landed like a yard out of bounds, but at 6' or where the WR would have jumped to catch it was catchable inbounds.  I'm not sure about timing of the two meeting at that point if the WR could have gotten cleanly off the line.

Tried to pause it as closely as possible.  From the Sky Cam, it doesn't look like the ball is more than 4-6' above the sideline, so it's catchable.  Last pick is maybe a few frames before it hit the ground, tried a few times and this was as best I could get.  yeah, it did land 2 yards out of bounds?  But just b/c the ball lands out of bounds doesn't mean it isn't catchable.  You don't have to catch a ball in the spot it touches the ground.

I'd say timing of the ball meeting the WR is probably a limiting factor moreso than the ball placement.

ball1.JPG

ball2.JPG

As I was- ball was catchable.

Thanks for the clarification.

In your opinion was it mainly Hudson not getting a clean release?

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14 minutes ago, TJRanger175 said:

In your opinion was it mainly Hudson not getting a clean release?

I have no idea.  He seemed to turn around kinda quickly at the goal line and lost any leverage against the DB and fell over.  I'm not sure it was really PI.  Bo threw that ball kinda of quick w/ not a ton of arc, I'm not sure if Kobe was supposed to fight through more to get to the spot or Bo didn't throw it well.

It's hard to tell.  He's at the EZ and he's already cleared his hips back to the QB.  there no chance of him getting to where Bo through the ball, this had little to do with the DB and the release.  I can't tell if it's a bad ball or bad route or both

Maybe CC and McElory are saying it wasn't catchable b/c the ball was supposed to be kinda like a jump ball to the WRs left shoulder?  Would make sense with how the WR is pivoting a little.  

 

ball3.JPG

Edited by W.E.D
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It seems to me that the way Bo throws the deep ball has been changed by coaching. He overthrew a lot last year by not putting enough air under it. Now he seems to be overcompensating. He's not just throwing the deep ball anymore, he's almost trying to guide it there. 

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42 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but initially my title was in quotes b/c it was the commentary of the board/internet...not directly my statements.  I'm still not sure why @WarTiger changed the title making it look like I said they can't get separation.

Not sarcasm at all. Sorry, didn’t know title was changed. 

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4 minutes ago, woodford said:

Not sarcasm at all. Sorry, didn’t know title was changed. 

Yeah, the title originally was intended to be quotes then examples ITT of them creating separation.  Still don't get why the thread title was changed.  Just edited it a little.

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  • W.E.D changed the title to "WR and TEs aren't creating separation" (or are they?)
25 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

I have no idea.  He seemed to turn around kinda quickly at the goal line and lost any leverage against the DB and fell over.  I'm not sure it was really PI.  Bo threw that ball kinda of quick w/ not a ton of arc, I'm not sure if Kobe was supposed to fight through more to get to the spot or Bo didn't throw it well.

It's hard to tell.  He's at the EZ and he's already cleared his hips back to the QB.  there no chance of him getting to where Bo through the ball, this had little to do with the DB and the release.  I can't tell if it's a bad ball or bad route or both

Maybe CC and McElory are saying it wasn't catchable b/c the ball was supposed to be kinda like a jump ball to the WRs left shoulder?  Would make sense with how the WR is pivoting a little.  

 

ball3.JPG

It really doesn't matter about where Bo threw the ball, the fact is the WR never could get there anyway. 

It does look like Hudson realized the DB was NOT going to let him get to the corner, which is allowable, so Hudson tried to twist around and IMO basically lost his balance and fell down. Whether he decided to fake a push who knows.

And if you look just when Bo gets the snap, the TE was not going to be open based on his route. Tank would have been open just bc he was behind the LOS. He would have caught a side pass from Bo, if he decided to go that way, but Tank was going to have to break a tackler or even 2 to get those final yards.

I would like to know if Harsin thought the players(Hudson and JAckson) executed that play correctly. If so, it was just a poor choice by Bo to hope Hudson could get to the corner to catch a contested ball.

I would have hoped his 2 best options are his 2 best known offensive players...Sheneker at TE, and Tank. If you lose that battle so be it. 

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