WR coach Cornelius Williams fired

[TitanTiger 20,471]

1 minute ago, W.E.D said:

I don't see how you can give excuses to every position group, but WRs.  They are either untalented Seniors with 7 career catches or super raw Freshman/Sophs.  Hell, Kobe was a QB in HS and is probably our most dynamic WR.

We have two seniors.  We have six 4-stars who are sophomores for the most part.  

I'm not expecting miracles here.  I'm not saying Corn should have had them on the level of Devonta Smith, Henry Ruggs and Calvin Ridley.  I'm saying, even with the inexperience I think it's reasonable to expect more from them than we're getting.  And I didn't make excuses except for perhaps the OL.  I just don't think they are capable of a whole lot better.  But they have improved from last year.  But the QBs?  No excuse - Bo got benched for Finley.  The defense?  Screwed up but also fixed their issues in games - something the WRs have not done at all.

In summary:
QBs - made a change and benched a 2+ year starter and Auburn legacy.

OL - still not great but better than previous years, low ceiling.  What's a coaching change going to do?

Defense - gotten gashed but also shown the ability to adjust and get things fixed.  If it continues to be a problem maybe some coaches or starters' butts are on the line too.

WRs - repeated mistakes, not getting better

Given those facts, I can reasonably see the WR coaches head being the first to roll.  Doesn't mean it will be the last.

[cole256 17,039]

And I need to apologize for the defense. I admit I fell for the hype. I'm usually the guy that will tell everybody you are too optimistic and everybody get mad and hate me 

I knew switching to a 3-4 we would suck before we get better. It's ALWAYS the case. We just had some very good returning players so I thought we could might do it. We can't. I did bring up we don't have a pass rush but 3-4 doesn't necessarily get pressure from d line BUT d line has to be dominate. That's my bad. We thought the d was going tocarry us. That's not the case.

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

1 minute ago, tgrogan21 said:

Yep, lets hold the WRs to a different and higher standard than all the other position groups despite being the least experienced group on the team. You would think that the positions full of junior and senior leadership and experience would be the ones that should be scrutinized the most.

So let me start by saying I am not disagreeing with this statement, just considering something.

So the entire team went through a coaching change, correct? We are implementing a new system schematically on both sides of the ball. So in that regards....does being a Jr or Sr really matter in terms of learning playbook, plays, assignments, alignments, etc as opposed to being an underclassmen? They all had to learn a new system. So I believe from a pure performance standpoint...you are right. Lots of groups not performing like they should be, but on the level of missed alignments and incorrect routes etc, maybe the WRS have been messing up more with that side of things compared to other position groups? Just a thought. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

OL - still not great but better than previous years, low ceiling.  What's a coaching change going to do?

After all this, you're still calling this a "fact" that somehow doesn't also apply to the wide receivers. Unreal.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

4 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Now this is interesting, the wr's have the same problems that you listed for those particular groups but don't have the solutions you offered for those groups. 

It's like you didn't even read what I said about the other groups.

The WRs haven't shown they are getting their s*** fixed like the defense has show they can do.

The WRs have all been playing already, though it looks like Harsin may enforce a different rotation this weekend.  There is no simple ability to yank them and put in new ones the way we could with Bo getting benched for Finley.

The WRs while young, I believe had a higher ceiling than a quite experienced offensive line.  And even though they still aren't SEC caliber overall, they've shown improvement from last year.  

The solutions or reasons that apply to the other groups aren't applicable to the WRs.  None of them are consistently getting the job done, they aren't showing any improvement or learning from mistakes, there's no one else to turn to instead of them, and they should have a higher ceiling than the OL we've had for basically a third season straight.

[cole256 17,039]

1 minute ago, Tigerpro2a said:

So let me start by saying I am not disagreeing with this statement, just considering something.

So the entire team went through a coaching change, correct? We are implementing a new system schematically on both sides of the ball. So in that regards....does being a Jr or Sr really matter in terms of learning playbook, plays, assignments, alignments, etc as opposed to being an underclassmen? They all had to learn a new system. So I believe from a pure performance standpoint...you are right. Lots of groups not performing like they should be, but on the level of missed alignments and incorrect routes etc, maybe the WRS have been messing up more with that side of things compared to other position groups? Just a thought. 

I think playing experience matters and matters greatly. Actually being in situations. Not so much learning a play book quicker

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, cole256 said:

And I need to apologize for the defense. I admit I fell for the hype. I'm usually the guy that will tell everybody you are too optimistic and everybody get mad and hate me 

I knew switching to a 3-4 we would suck before we get better. It's ALWAYS the case. We just had some very good returning players so I thought we could might do it. We can't. I did bring up we don't have a pass rush but 3-4 doesn't necessarily get pressure from d line BUT d line has to be dominate. That's my bad. We thought the d was going tocarry us. That's not the case.

I had hoped Tony Fair was the magic pill. 

[tgrogan21 6,198]

2 minutes ago, Tigerpro2a said:

So let me start by saying I am not disagreeing with this statement, just considering something.

So the entire team went through a coaching change, correct? We are implementing a new system schematically on both sides of the ball. So in that regards....does being a Jr or Sr really matter in terms of learning playbook, plays, assignments, alignments, etc as opposed to being an underclassmen? They all had to learn a new system. So I believe from a pure performance standpoint...you are right. Lots of groups not performing like they should be, but on the level of missed alignments and incorrect routes etc, maybe the WRS have been messing up more with that side of things compared to other position groups? Just a thought. 

I think the thing that matters the most is that before this season our WRs as a group not counting Robertson had 27 career catches total. AS A GROUP. Some of those catches from Capers and Canion who, IMO, have been sitting on the bench when they should be starting. As soon as those two started playing more and the QB changed in the 4th, the WRs were making catches. So, yeah, I think that position should get the most leeway out of any other position due to the sheer lack of experience.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, cole256 said:

I think playing experience matters and matters greatly. Actually being in situations. Not so much learning a play book quicker

Also, more time in the weight room, more time figuring out campus life, more time developing bonds with teammates... 

Another way to say it might be that learning new plays, alignments, terminology, etc. is *all* upperclassmen have to do while underclassmen are piling that on top of trying to remember where Haley Center is. 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Just now, McLoofus said:

After all this, you're still calling this a "fact" that somehow doesn't also apply to the wide receivers. Unreal.

Ok, not a fact.  But I've watched this basically same group of offensive linemen for over 2 seasons now.   I think if they were capable of drastically better play, we'd have seen it by now or at least flashes of it.  I just don't think it's there.  The WRs are young and we have some athletes.  They've made some nice catches and I think they can end up being a pretty good group.  Until some more time goes by and shows me otherwise, I think they can be better at their position than this group of OL can be at theirs.

In the end, I think we can get the WRs playing at a much higher level than they are now.  I do not think any amount of coaching is going to make this OL significantly better.  They can still improve some, but I just don't see how much more.

[keesler 5,924]

Harsin has/had his man in an analyst role.  With the pressure he's heard about the poor clock management & play calling vs PSU + the boos reverberating through JHS on Homecoming coupled with the crapshow in the GaState game, he's probably had enough of it.  He mentioned at the replacement knows the offense, knows what Harsin wants to run and he's familiar with Harsin's system.  If anything Harsin has a comfort feeling with this guy and he knows the job will be done like he wants. 

What's done is done, it's time to move on get to work. 

 

[cole256 17,039]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

It's like you didn't even read what I said about the other groups.

The WRs haven't shown they are getting their s*** fixed like the defense has show they can do.

The WRs have all been playing already, though it looks like Harsin may enforce a different rotation this weekend.  There is no simple ability to yank them and put in new ones the way we could with Bo getting benched for Finley.

The WRs while young, I believe had a higher ceiling than a quite experienced offensive line.  And even though they still aren't SEC caliber overall, they've shown improvement from last year.  

The solutions or reasons that apply to the other groups aren't applicable to the WRs.  None of them are consistently getting the job done, they aren't showing any improvement or learning from mistakes, there's no one else to turn to instead of them, and they should have a higher ceiling than the OL we've had for basically a third season straight.

I did read it and I have rebuttalsbut you are ignoring them. The wr play did get better when the QB change happened. WR play is linked with the QB. Unlike o line and defense having to be linked. WR play could be much better if we had a decent QB. 

And a bunch of this is just your opinion. I understand you are saying that the wr are more talented than o line. I do not. When you say we need better horses for the o line I feel this exact way about wr. 

We could have sat a couple of wr and played the others. I don't know why you say we couldn't. 

We can't know if the wr's improved or not because we literally couldn't see them play because they didn't. 

The first games all I heard was how Kobe and Jackson has improved

[McLoofus 35,182]

Not quoting Keesler because I know he doesn't want to get caught up in the back and forth, but I think that's really the biggest part of it.

And that doesn't contradict what Cole is suggesting. It doesn't mean Corn deserved to get fired any more than anyone else. It's just that Corn was the one unlucky enough to have his replacement already on staff. 

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Look, I feel like we're at a point where we just keep rehashing the same things over and over and no one is either getting what the other is trying to say, or we simply disagree.  I still fall on the side of believing that Harsin made a reasonable decision given what we know.  Now by reasonable I'm not saying ideal.  Just that I don't see a good reason to believe it was capricious, nepotistic, or rash.  I'll let you guys keep arguing if that floats your boat.

[cole256 17,039]

Once again our QB was a 5 star. Sec freshman of the year everybody kept saying. Has the most experience than every other sec QB. After all this one on one tutelage he still can't throw a forward pass over 15 yards consistently.....Harsin and the QB coach aren't accountable for that the way what's his face is for the wr's?

[tgrogan21 6,198]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

Not quoting Keesler because I know he doesn't want to get caught up in the back and forth, but I think that's really the biggest part of it.

And that doesn't contradict what Cole is suggesting. It doesn't mean Corn deserved to get fired any more than anyone else. It's just that Corn was the one unlucky enough to have his replacement already on staff. 

I'm excited to see what the new WR coach can do. I believe he has more experience at many different schools and from the little I've seen he has made good impressions with his past WRs. Harsin now has his man that he really wanted in the position. I still don't believe Corn should have been fired over other position coaches and no amount of people saying otherwise can convince me that Corn wasn't the scapegoat or just a stop gap because he couldn't hire Kiesau for the position because he was waiting to see if he got the BSU coaching job.

[cole256 17,039]

Cool. To me this doesn't make sense, it has to be something else. We have a bunch of problems and wr is just one of many. Now if it makes people mad that it doesn't make sense to me oh well 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

@cbo@AU-24 Knock it off.  No one is interested in this personal bickering between you two.  Take it to PM.

Well hold on.  I was quite amused.

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

And until that good reason is made available or until those other units actually show that their leadership deserves to remain intact, then it's perfectly fair to wonder.

I mean, if we're going to just shut down all speculation, then you might as well hit the lights on this website. There's literally nothing to talk about if we're not going to question our head coach's decisions. I know you know this. 

Something else to consider: its been reported from sources inside the program that other changes are likely to come at season's end. If that is true, it is certainly fair to  speculate as to why those decisions are being deferred. In my opinion, the timing of Corn's firing has more to do with the availability of Kiesau and the opportunity for a smooth transition for that group with someone that Harsin trusts. That's probably the only position group where that would be possible, outside of RBs or TEs, but those don't appear to be problem areas in this offense. We will see what happens with Friend and Bobo after the season. 

edit: What Keesler said

Edited September 28, 2021 by Barnacle

[McLoofus 35,182]

8 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

 I'll let you guys keep arguing if that floats your boat.

Except you started all this by calling someone else's very reasonable assumption into question while propping up your own as superior. You should own that.

[tgrogan21 6,198]

I'm just happy that Harsin gave us another thing to discuss this week. You know it's not like the possible QB change or playing LSU at home was enough.

[cole256 17,039]

2 minutes ago, tgrogan21 said:

I'm excited to see what the new WR coach can do. I believe he has more experience at many different schools and from the little I've seen he has made good impressions with his past WRs. Harsin now has his man that he really wanted in the position. I still don't believe Corn should have been fired over other position coaches and no amount of people saying otherwise can convince me that Corn wasn't the scapegoat or just a stop gap because he couldn't hire Kiesau for the position because he was waiting to see if he got the BSU coaching job.

Improvement will be on QB play. People take that it touched your hands you have to catch it too far. That's something said to try to be superhuman, like in basketball it's just you and him who wants it more! I could want it just as much as that guy but if he's better he's just better. I can just try. 

Yeah this ball hit my hand as I dived for it but if you throw a ball in a guy's radius he's much more likely to catch that ball

[atl-tiger 655]

52 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

I don't really like that he is slowly making this thing all Boise State coaches.  We need some variety.  We blasted Malzahn for staying within his tree and never branching out, and I feel like Harsin is doing the same thing.

Concerned with this as well. It will be interesting what happens with our current OL coach Friend and TE coach Bedell, who was harsins OL coach at Boise. 

[TJRanger175 209]

Based on what I have heard from interviews and podcasts, the following seems like it is the most likely scenario:

1.       Harsin wants his OC (Eric Kiesau) to follow him but Kiesau wanted to see if he would either be in contention for the HC or OC position in Boise (I can understand this- moving is horrible and why take a demotion when you can be the guy calling plays).

2.       When neither position materialized, Kiesau joined the staff in February as an analyst (after all the positions had been filled).

3.       A few other WR coaches did not pan out so Harsin hired a talented young receivers coach (C-Will) that had a history of coaching productive WR’s and had a great reputation among high school coaches in the SE.

4.       C-Will served as WR coach for two no-huddle spread offensive “Guru’s” (Neal Brown and Chip Lindsey).

5.       The two offenses, while a little more sophisticated than Malzahn’s offense, are no where near as sophisticated as the multiple pro set offenses employed by Harsin/Bobo.

6.       It is a distinct possibility that C-Will may have had issues himself adjusting to the new offense (total conjecture)

7.       What has been said is that the WR room was not held to a high enough standard for knowing the game plan week in and week out.

8.       It has also been said that the WR room was not held to a high enough standard for enforcing attention to detail when it came to specific technique.

9.       Obviously there were issues with the WR rotation during games, as well as ensuring the proper players were out there for the specific offensive packages.

10.   There has also been mention of receivers running wrong routes because they are not proficient at reading coverages.

11.   Once the problems with attention to detail became overwhelming, Harsin made the change.

It is entirely possible that while C-Will is a great guy he may have been out of his element and not ready for the jump he was being asked to make.

I think a lot of leeway may have been made just because of his reputation as a recruiter.

There is a saying- Hire slow, fire fast.

I don’t think this move happens if Kiesau is not already in Auburn.

I think the hiring may have been Harsin taking a chance on a young stud with great recruiting credentials.

I don’t think anything horrible or back handed happened.

Just a case of someone not being able to carry out their responsibilities.

Bottom Line- I don’t know if we will ever find out the real story. I certainly don’t know.

 

 

[tgrogan21 6,198]

1 minute ago, cole256 said:

Improvement will be on QB play. People take that it touched your hands you have to catch it too far. That's something said to try to be superhuman, like in basketball it's just you and him who wants it more! I could want it just as much as that guy but if he's better he's just better. I can just try. 

Yeah this ball hit my hand as I dived for it but if you throw a ball in a guy's radius he's much more likely to catch that ball

Should have clarified that I'm curious about how he'll do with assignments and rotations since apparently Harsin gives the assistants full control over rotations I want to see if Robertson will play this week. I want to see if Canion and Capers will be coming off the bench. But yeah, most important thing for improvement as far as production will come from QB. I just hope that Finley is gonna get the start so we can give him the chance he deserves to get in rhythm with these receivers.