2023 Discussion Thread

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Just now, AUght2win said:

Goodness gracious, dude. I don’t even know what to say to that other than you’ve got some AU self-loathing tendencies.

Being honest about AU and its historical standing isn't self loathing.

Love Auburn.  Glad I went there.  Doesn't mean its always the best.

[TexasTiger 12,828]

24 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Visiting BR and living somewhere for 4 years aren't comparable.  My experience in EL wasn't "atypical".  I'm guessing you've never been there and thus couldn't tell me what a typical experience would be.

As for MSU football, you should really learn your history before saying its never been on par with Auburn.  They have more national titles than AU, which is traditionally a mid-tier SEC school (sorry, its true).

MSU has the same number of major wire National championships as AU, not more. But the last one was 1965. Over the last 45 years AU has been more consistently relevant.

[AUght2win 6,828]

2 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Being honest about AU and its historical standing isn't self loathing.

Love Auburn.  Glad I went there.  Doesn't mean its always the best.

This is truly not worthy of discussion so I’ll just give a few baseline stats.

Auburn - 13th all time in wins, right behind LSU. Michigan State - not even top 25. We have 46 bowl appearances to their 30, with a better win percentage. MSU did not post a single 10 win season between 1967-1999. They won 1 outright Big Ten title between 2013 and 1967. We’ve had more than double the All Americans over the past 50+ years. In the last 40 years, they’ve had 41 players picked in the first 3 rounds of the draft, we’ve had 65. They’ve never won a Heisman.

They claim a bunch of disputed national titles from prehistoric times (two of which they didn’t even finish first in the Big Ten, and one was 1957 - a year most recognize Auburn for). If that’s your barometer to evaluate program power, teams like Illinois, Minnesota, Georgia Tech, Ole Miss, Army, Iowa, Cal, and even some Ivy League schools are better than us too.

[AUght2win 6,828]

9 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

MSU has the same number of major wire National championships as AU, not more. But the last one was 1965. Over the last 45 years AU has been more consistently relevant.

I’ll never ever ever understand how people put weight on national titles in college football. Especially pre-BCS. Even now, the system is garbage. But all MSU’s titles came from the days when biased regional sportswriters would vote on who was the best team in the nation despite there being literally 1 game on TV per week, and the title was awarded before bowls were even played.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

31 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

This is truly not worthy of discussion so I’ll just give a few baseline stats.

Auburn - 13th all time in wins, right behind LSU. Michigan State - not even top 25. We have 46 bowl appearances to their 30, with a better win percentage. MSU did not post a single 10 win season between 1967-1999. They won 1 outright Big Ten title between 2013 and 1967. We’ve had more than double the All Americans over the past 50+ years. In the last 40 years, they’ve had 41 players picked in the first 3 rounds of the draft, we’ve had 65. They’ve never won a Heisman.

They claim a bunch of disputed national titles from prehistoric times (two of which they didn’t even finish first in the Big Ten, and one was 1957 - a year most recognize Auburn for). If that’s your barometer to evaluate program power, teams like Illinois, Minnesota, Georgia Tech, Ole Miss, Army, Iowa, Cal, and even some Ivy League schools are better than us too.

When you say "MSU is not on par with Auburn.  Never has been," you don't then get to cherry pick stats and years.  The program was a national power in the 50s and 60s.

And over the last decade, they've won more games than AU (83 vs 74), had more 10 win seasons (5 vs 2), more conference titles (2 vs 1), more top 10 finishes (4 vs 1), and have a playoff appearance.  They're a more relevant program than we are right now and that matters in recruiting.

The amount of bowl arguments is dumb without understanding Big 10 history.  Up until the 1975, the conference only allowed one team to participate in bowl games.  So yes, naturally AU has more bowl game appearances.  Perfect example is Michigan from 1972-1974.  They went 30-2-1 and never played a bowl game because of conference rules.  Multiple Big 10 teams in bowl games wasn't a thing.

ETA: The all time wins gap between Auburn (13th) and UGA (11th) is 65 wins.  The gap between Auburn (13th) and MSU (26th) is 67 wins.  Would we really concede that UGA is that much better than Auburn historically?

Edited September 8, 2022 by Brad_ATX

[TexasTiger 12,828]

27 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

When you say "MSU is not on par with Auburn.  Never has been," you don't then get to cherry pick stats and years.  The program was a national power in the 50s and 60s.

And over the last decade, they've won more games than AU (83 vs 74), had more 10 win seasons (5 vs 2), more conference titles (2 vs 1), more top 10 finishes (4 vs 1), and have a playoff appearance.  They're a more relevant program than we are right now and that matters in recruiting.

The amount of bowl arguments is dumb without understanding Big 10 history.  Up until the 1975, the conference only allowed one team to participate in bowl games.  So yes, naturally AU has more bowl game appearances.  Perfect example is Michigan from 1972-1974.  They went 30-2-1 and never played a bowl game because of conference rules.  Multiple Big 10 teams in bowl games wasn't a thing.

ETA: The all time wins gap between Auburn (13th) and UGA (11th) is 65 wins.  The gap between Auburn (13th) and MSU (26th) is 67 wins.  Would we really concede that UGA is that much better than Auburn historically?

How many bowl games for each school since 1975?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

How many bowl games for each school since 1975?

MSU - 26

AU - 30

Pretty close in total appearances during that span.

[AUght2win 6,828]

37 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

When you say "MSU is not on par with Auburn.  Never has been," you don't then get to cherry pick stats and years.  The program was a national power in the 50s and 60s.

And over the last decade, they've won more games than AU (83 vs 74), had more 10 win seasons (5 vs 2), more conference titles (2 vs 1), more top 10 finishes (4 vs 1), and have a playoff appearance.  They're a more relevant program than we are right now and that matters in recruiting.

The amount of bowl arguments is dumb without understanding Big 10 history.  Up until the 1975, the conference only allowed one team to participate in bowl games.  So yes, naturally AU has more bowl game appearances.  Perfect example is Michigan from 1972-1974.  They went 30-2-1 and never played a bowl game because of conference rules.  Multiple Big 10 teams in bowl games wasn't a thing.

ETA: The all time wins gap between Auburn (13th) and UGA (11th) is 65 wins.  The gap between Auburn (13th) and MSU (26th) is 67 wins.  Would we really concede that UGA is that much better than Auburn historically?

You actually cherry picked by reducing programs down to something as subjective and meaningless as claimed national titles from the pre-modern era. A couple decades of good football over a half century ago doesn’t come close to what Auburn has done in its history in the toughest conference in CFB.

Auburn is just a much more relevant program with a much better reputation. Your example. Is UGA much better? No. We have a very similar resume as UGA, from player quality to on-field results, all the while competing in the SEC. A school like MSU is not in our stratosphere.

I’d rank the Spartans in the program tier with Virginia Tech, Okie State, TAMU, West Virginia and Washington. Respectable brands with definite bright spots in their history, but not on the par with SEC powers.

[AUght2win 6,828]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

When you say "MSU is not on par with Auburn.  Never has been," you don't then get to cherry pick stats and years.  The program was a national power in the 50s and 60s.

And over the last decade, they've won more games than AU (83 vs 74), had more 10 win seasons (5 vs 2), more conference titles (2 vs 1), more top 10 finishes (4 vs 1), and have a playoff appearance.  They're a more relevant program than we are right now and that matters in recruiting.

The amount of bowl arguments is dumb without understanding Big 10 history.  Up until the 1975, the conference only allowed one team to participate in bowl games.  So yes, naturally AU has more bowl game appearances.  Perfect example is Michigan from 1972-1974.  They went 30-2-1 and never played a bowl game because of conference rules.  Multiple Big 10 teams in bowl games wasn't a thing.

ETA: The all time wins gap between Auburn (13th) and UGA (11th) is 65 wins.  The gap between Auburn (13th) and MSU (26th) is 67 wins.  Would we really concede that UGA is that much better than Auburn historically?

A great example of the gap between the two programs is 2013. In 2013, going into Championship Week, both Auburn and MSU were 12-1. Both had won 8 games in a row.

In the BIG 10 title game Michigan State BEATS #2 Ohio State in impressive fashion. Yet, we go to the national title game, over them.

Auburn is a power in a more respected conference. There’s a gap in perception.

 

[bigbird 60,461]

7 hours ago, Mikey said:

Two each to Kentucky and Arky in addition to the others? What's happening right now is not normal. One, a year, maybe two in a rare year.

You need to readjust the parameters.  You can't judge or base things today off of anything before 2 years ago. Portal and NIL has completely changed the recruiting landscape.  Like you said, it used to be rare, but the number of recruits signing out of area has exploded in the last couple of cycles.  It's the new norm. 

[bigbird 60,461]

8 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Recruiting is more national now than ever before.  The old ideas of "recruiting area" need to be reconsidered by fans, because coaches have long moved on.  You identify and get talent wherever you can.

Should've read through before I posted. Well stated.

[TexasTiger 12,828]

6 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

MSU - 26

AU - 30

Pretty close in total appearances during that span.

And I’m not saying AU is an overwhelming slam dunk in comparison, but I do think they’ve been more relevant overall, even with MSU’s resurgence since 2010. Alabama has been the biggest force since that time— which team has beaten them the most? Even in 2017 when Bama & UGA played for the title— which team beat them both? AU has also played for 2 titles since 2010 and won one. MSU’s best decade since 1965 has been during that period and they were still less relevant in the national title discussion even during their best years.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

6 hours ago, AUght2win said:

A great example of the gap between the two programs is 2013. In 2013, going into Championship Week, both Auburn and MSU were 12-1. Both had won 8 games in a row.

In the BIG 10 title game Michigan State BEATS #2 Ohio State in impressive fashion. Yet, we go to the national title game, over them.

Auburn is a power in a more respected conference. There’s a gap in perception.

 

We were higher ranked than MSU going into the conference title games, had just beaten #1 and two time defending national champion Bama, and also beat a top 5 Mizzou in Atlanta.

No one was jumping us.  If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have jumped MSU.  Has zero to do with perception.

[bigbird 60,461]

4 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

We were higher ranked than MSU going into the conference title games, had just beaten #1 and two time defending national champion Bama, and also beat a top 5 Mizzou in Atlanta.

No one was jumping us.  If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have jumped MSU.  Has zero to do with perception.

Not really appropriate for the conversation, but a lot forget, we don't make the Championship in '13 without MSU.

 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

And I’m not saying AU is an overwhelming slam dunk in comparison, but I do think they’ve been more relevant overall, even with MSU’s resurgence since 2010. Alabama has been the biggest force since that time— which team has beaten them the most? Even in 2017 when Bama & UGA played for the title— which team beat them both? AU has also played for 2 titles since 2010 and won one. MSU’s best decade since 1965 has been during that period and they were still less relevant in the national title discussion even during their best years.

Nowhere have I said that MSU has been more relevant than us historically.  I've contended that we are on about the same level.  Both programs are historically middle of the pack in their conferences (MSU is 5th all time in the Big 10, we are 6th all time in the SEC).  Both programs have had a good run in particular decades.  And both programs have about the same number of bowl game appearances since the Big 10 changed rules.

And over the last 10 years, they've been consistently better.  Remember, recruits care about now.  These kids going to college were about 8-9 years old when 2013 happened.  Their frame of reference is more modern.  And quite frankly, as much as I like Harsin's coaching style, Mel Tucker is an ace coach and recruiter himself.

So to say "Why would a kid go to MSU" without understanding some nuance is baffling to me.

[augolf1716 21,102]

I worked in the East Lansing area for a number of years. Great college town, good looking women, lots of partying and a few decent golf courses but the damn mosquitoes can eat you alive. Went to a few football games stadium was OK had artificial turf back then did freeze my ass off at a game in Nov. but all in all not to bad. Just my two cents

I will say Auburn feels good were they are at in DB recruiting and I think Colton may have felt he was not going to be a part of it. Not even sure if he had a committable offer

[keywest 138]

17 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Nowhere have I said that MSU has been more relevant than us historically.  I've contended that we are on about the same level.  Both programs are historically middle of the pack in their conferences (MSU is 5th all time in the Big 10, we are 6th all time in the SEC).  Both programs have had a good run in particular decades.  And both programs have about the same number of bowl game appearances since the Big 10 changed rules.

And over the last 10 years, they've been consistently better.  Remember, recruits care about now.  These kids going to college were about 8-9 years old when 2013 happened.  Their frame of reference is more modern.  And quite frankly, as much as I like Harsin's coaching style, Mel Tucker is an ace coach and recruiter himself.

So to say "Why would a kid go to MSU" without understanding some nuance is baffling to me.

"I've contended that we are on about the same level".............. Are you serious?

Auburn historic record 763-447                                          MSU historic record 573-568

Conf. Champ = 8                                                                  Conf. Champ = 1

Bowls = 46                                                                            Bowls = 25 

NC = 2                                                                                   NC = 0

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

30 minutes ago, keywest said:

"I've contended that we are on about the same level".............. Are you serious?

Auburn historic record 763-447                                          MSU historic record 573-568

Conf. Champ = 8                                                                  Conf. Champ = 1

Bowls = 46                                                                            Bowls = 25 

NC = 2                                                                                   NC = 0

Which MSU do you think we're talking about here?  Cause it ain't Mississippi State.

Scroll back and keep up.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

37 minutes ago, augolf1716 said:

I worked in the East Lansing area for a number of years. Great college town, good looking women, lots of partying and a few decent golf courses but the damn mosquitoes can eat you alive. Went to a few football games stadium was OK had artificial turf back then did freeze my ass off at a game in Nov. but all in all not to bad. Just my two cents

I will say Auburn feels good were they are at in DB recruiting and I think Colton may have felt he was not going to be a part of it. Not even sure if he had a committable offer

Golfing has gotten really good in that area now.  You'd love it.

[Mikey 16,569]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

You need to readjust the parameters.  You can't judge or base things today off of anything before 2 years ago. Portal and NIL has completely changed the recruiting landscape.  Like you said, it used to be rare, but the number of recruits signing out of area has exploded in the last couple of cycles.  It's the new norm. 

It takes a whale of a lot of adjusted thinking before one can rationalize that AU getting three of the top 30 (none of the top 14) prospects in Alabama is some kind of acceptable "new norm". If this is the case, we need to keep MSU on our schedule because we'll be very competitive with them. Competitive with the big boys? Not so much.

Subject Rivals list: https://rivals.rivals.com/state_rankings/2023/alabama

[bigbird 60,461]

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

It takes a whale of a lot of adjusted thinking before one can rationalize that AU getting three of the top 30 (none of the top 14) prospects in Alabama is some kind of acceptable "new norm". If this is the case, we need to keep MSU on our schedule because we'll be very competitive with them. Competitive with the big boys? Not so much.

Subject Rivals list: https://rivals.rivals.com/state_rankings/2023/alabama

Disingenuous much?

Who said anything about what your throwing up against the wall?

[Sizzle 3,909]

2 hours ago, augolf1716 said:

I worked in the East Lansing area for a number of years. Great college town, good looking women, lots of partying and a few decent golf courses but the damn mosquitoes can eat you alive. Went to a few football games stadium was OK had artificial turf back then did freeze my ass off at a game in Nov. but all in all not to bad. Just my two cents

I will say Auburn feels good were they are at in DB recruiting and I think Colton may have felt he was not going to be a part of it. Not even sure if he had a committable offer

He didn’t have a commitable offer but Jc Hart did? No disrespect to Hart because he could be legit down the line but I just don’t believe that. Michigan state just beat us, that’s a good school. It’s not like he picked Troy

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sizzle

[AuburnNTexas 7,139]

Its nice to fight over one that got away whether we just got beat fair and square or we weren't pushing that hard for him it doesn't really matter he committed to Michigan State. As to comparing JC Hart versus Hood look at the measurables height and speed and you can see why we might have pushed harder for Hart. Look at how Hart is balling out so far this year.  As a Legacy with his family history I have to admit I wanted Hood but that may be a heart want as opposed to a well thought out head want.

[AUght2win 6,828]

5 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

We were higher ranked than MSU going into the conference title games, had just beaten #1 and two time defending national champion Bama, and also beat a top 5 Mizzou in Atlanta.

No one was jumping us.  If the roles were reversed, we wouldn't have jumped MSU.  Has zero to do with perception.

Why were we higher ranked? Because we play in the SEC against better competition. It has everything to do with perception. 

[AUght2win 6,828]

5 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Nowhere have I said that MSU has been more relevant than us historically.  I've contended that we are on about the same level.  Both programs are historically middle of the pack in their conferences (MSU is 5th all time in the Big 10, we are 6th all time in the SEC).  Both programs have had a good run in particular decades.  And both programs have about the same number of bowl game appearances since the Big 10 changed rules.

And over the last 10 years, they've been consistently better.  Remember, recruits care about now.  These kids going to college were about 8-9 years old when 2013 happened.  Their frame of reference is more modern.  And quite frankly, as much as I like Harsin's coaching style, Mel Tucker is an ace coach and recruiter himself.

So to say "Why would a kid go to MSU" without understanding some nuance is baffling to me.

It’s just a wrong take. Period. Also interested to hear what 5 teams are ahead of Auburn historically and your parameters for that.

You can twist it however you want but Auburn is a power in indisputably the best conference in CFB. MSU is a basketball school in the Big 10. It’s not even close.

And I know you guys hate Mikey, but he is correct that we should be pulling more than 10% of the state’s top talent. Even in our worst years, we should have our choice of a half or third of Alabama’s best players.