Russia vs Ukraine

[GoAU 1,599]

I thought it made a lot of sense that Ukraine handed out 10k assault rifles to its citizens to be able to defend themselves individually if necessary.  That could make life very difficult for an invading army. 

[TexasTiger 12,828]

2 minutes ago, GoAU said:

I thought it made a lot of sense that Ukraine handed out 10k assault rifles to its citizens to be able to defend themselves individually if necessary.  That could make life very difficult for an invading army. 

The invaded are far more motivated than the invaders.

[GoAU 1,599]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Interesting take:

 

Some definite truth there.  And he is correct about the improvements of the Ukrainian army.  Not sure when he interacted with the Russian army, but seems like “Cold War” Russia.  I know they have been doing a lot of modernization of their military hardware. Not sure how it’s affected training, but I’ve heard upgrading of military capabilities has been a point of emphasis since the campaign into Crimea

Edited February 25, 2022 by GoAU

[AU9377 4,922]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:15 AM, GoAU said:

And just to make it even more complicated, I forgot to include the commitments we made as a nation under the Budapest Memorandum.  The general Clif Notes for anyone not familiar are that when the Ukraine split from Russia they would have been #3 globally in the number of nukes they had.  We reassured them from a security standpoint that we would keep them safe if they got rid of their nukes.  They did.  Now??

The U.S. will not fight a ground war over Ukraine.  Russia being Russia is not worth one American life.

[TexasTiger 12,828]

18 hours ago, Grumps said:

Carlson is again overly dramatic, but I didn't see or hear anything particularly stupid. Was there something specific or is it just Carlson in general that you think is stupid?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/24/tucker-carlson-says-ukraine-is-not-democracy-here-are-facts/

[Grumps 3,704]

14 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/24/tucker-carlson-says-ukraine-is-not-democracy-here-are-facts/

I will read the article when I get home. Thanks for sharing. My comments were in reference to the 9+ minute video that was posted. Also, I am not a fan of Carlson. He is after ratings and wants to push his/Fox's agenda far more than he wants to inform people or tell the truth.

[I_M4_AU 7,788]

You have to feel sorry for Ukraine’s President, he put faith in Biden and his *this is who we are as American’s* mantra.  

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy released a statement scolding his country's allies for "watching from afar" as the country is forced to defend itself alone against a much larger Russian military invasion.

In a statement, Zelenskyy seemed to swipe U.S. President Biden and others who imposed sanctions against Russia, which he claims did little to deter Russian aggression.

"This morning we are defending our state alone. Like yesterday, the world's most powerful forces are watching from afar," he said, the Kyiv Independent reported.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-president-throws-shade-biden-us-afar

 

[I_M4_AU 7,788]

This really sounds like a good argument about NATO and is apropos to today’s crisis.

 

Orange man is a tough SOB.

[CoffeeTiger 5,089]

25 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

You have to feel sorry for Ukraine’s President, he put faith in Biden and his *this is who we are as American’s* mantra.  

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy released a statement scolding his country's allies for "watching from afar" as the country is forced to defend itself alone against a much larger Russian military invasion.

In a statement, Zelenskyy seemed to swipe U.S. President Biden and others who imposed sanctions against Russia, which he claims did little to deter Russian aggression.

"This morning we are defending our state alone. Like yesterday, the world's most powerful forces are watching from afar," he said, the Kyiv Independent reported.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-president-throws-shade-biden-us-afar

 

Just last week Zelenskyy was criticizing Biden and America for overreacting to the Russian situation and that the warnings about an invasion were hurting the Ukrainian economy and scaring people. 

 

I'm sure he would rather America and Europe start lobbing Missiles into Moscow and starting a global war to save his government, but that's not a realistic option at this point. I feel for Ukraine and hope they give the Russians a hell of a fight and make them bleed for everything they take, but Ukraine should have joined NATO when it had the chance.

Just 10 years ago Ukraine declined joining NATO and the population had very little support for it. Ukraine wanted to remain neutral and maintain good but independent relations with both Russia and Europe, but unfortunately that just left them in this situation. 

[I_M4_AU 7,788]

My God, where are all the *tough* sanctions?  China is staying out of the fray as they need Russian oil.  This is such a weak response.  Hope we can stop all the globalization talk now, it will never work.  We don’t need to be separatists, but giving away our leadership in the world will never work.

[I_M4_AU 7,788]

3 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Just last week Zelenskyy was criticizing Biden and America for overreacting to the Russian situation and that the warnings about an invasion were hurting the Ukrainian economy and scaring people. 

 

I'm sure he would rather America and Europe start lobbing Missiles into Moscow and starting a global war to save his government, but that's not a realistic option at this point. I feel for Ukraine and hope they give the Russians a hell of a fight and make them bleed for everything they take, but Ukraine should have joined NATO when it had the chance.

Just 10 years ago Ukraine declined joining NATO and the population had very little support for it. Ukraine wanted to remain neutral and maintain good but independent relations with both Russia and Europe, but unfortunately that just left them in this situation. 

We left Zelenskyy blowing in the wind.  When Biden saw troop buildups on the Ukraine border America did nothing.  Congress tried to shutdown the Nord Stream 2 pipeline and the measure failed, talks were going on with our allies and no tough talk was being brought forward (it appears Germany and other European nations can’t do without oil), yet our unwavering support for a country we spend billion of dollars on was all talk.  Do you think Ukraine had faith in a country that supported their efforts of becoming a democratic state?  Do you think any other country will do the same after the Afghanistan, Iraq and Ukraine experiment failed?  How about Taiwan?  It’s next.

Biden already told Russia no US troops were going to be deployed to Ukraine, so where was the pushback?  We are sending troops to NATO countries as we speak getting ready for what exactly?  The US sacrificed Ukraine after trying to show solidarity.  This is not the first time America has done this, countries around the world have short memories.

Joining NATO would put NATO on the border of Russia and is one of Russia’s hot points.  It wanted a buffer between itself and NATO.  It wasn’t going to happen.  Its the price Zelenskyy paid, not understanding what was at stake.  Do you think if Ukraine would have opted for NATO 10 years ago things would have been different?

I’m not sure what the purpose of all this is.  I guess we will find out soon enough.

[CoffeeTiger 5,089]

48 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

We left Zelenskyy blowing in the wind.  When Biden saw troop buildups on the Ukraine border America did nothing.  Congress tried to shutdown the Nord Stream 2 pipeline and the measure failed, talks were going on with our allies and no tough talk was being brought forward (it appears Germany and other European nations can’t do without oil), yet our unwavering support for a country we spend billion of dollars on was all talk.  Do you think Ukraine had faith in a country that supported their efforts of becoming a democratic state?  Do you think any other country will do the same after the Afghanistan, Iraq and Ukraine experiment failed?  How about Taiwan?  It’s next.

Biden already told Russia no US troops were going to be deployed to Ukraine, so where was the pushback?  We are sending troops to NATO countries as we speak getting ready for what exactly?  The US sacrificed Ukraine after trying to show solidarity.  This is not the first time America has done this, countries around the world have short memories.

Joining NATO would put NATO on the border of Russia and is one of Russia’s hot points.  It wanted a buffer between itself and NATO.  It wasn’t going to happen.  Its the price Zelenskyy paid, not understanding what was at stake.  Do you think if Ukraine would have opted for NATO 10 years ago things would have been different?

I’m not sure what the purpose of all this is.  I guess we will find out soon enough.

Yes, I think this situation would be drastically different if Ukraine had joined NATO before. 

Russia already borders NATO countries in Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. 

You are talking as if we are 'betraying' Ukraine here....what are you proposing? Are you saying we should declare war on Russia and start a global conflict? Start open conflict with Russian forces to force them out of Ukraine? 

Biden is steadfastly standing by Ukraine here, but he never promised we would spill American blood and start a World War to protect Ukraine. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by CoffeeTiger

[I_M4_AU 7,788]

41 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Yes, I think this situation would be drastically different if Ukraine had joined NATO before. 

Russia already borders NATO countries in Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. 

You are talking as if we are 'betraying' Ukraine here....what are you proposing? Are you saying we should declare war on Russia and start a global conflict? Start open conflict with Russian forces to force them out of Ukraine? 

Biden is steadfastly standing by Ukraine here, but he never promised we would spill American blood and start a World War to protect Ukraine. 

The situation got way too far ahead of itself without intervention in the first place.  Why would you relax sanctions on Russia 5 days after you were sworn in?  What purpose does that serve?  Biden’s weakness has been shown and Russia has responded.

The time to act is BEFORE the invasion, not after it has begun.  Biden *knew* Russia was going to invade weeks before hand and also knew he did have the support of his NATO allies for tough energy sanctions against Russia.  We did know that, but Biden did.  He was not arguing from a position of strength and he threw up his hands and sent his VP to Europe instead of going himself to sooth our allies.  That didn’t help.

His sanctions will do nothing to deter Russia and Biden has even said so.

The first thing I would do is get our energy production up to the point it could support Europe without Russia’s oil.  Then put on sanctions against Russia exporting oil even to China.  That would be a win/win situation.  LeBron would disagree.  Then just hold tight and build up our forces in our bases in Europe.  Peace through strength.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by I_M4_AU

[pensacolatiger 313]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

My God, where are all the *tough* sanctions?  China is staying out of the fray as they need Russian oil.  This is such a weak response.  Hope we can stop all the globalization talk now, it will never work.  We don’t need to be separatists, but giving away our leadership in the world will never work.

Nothing tough about this administration.  They’d rather shoot down domestic oil jobs and pay global terrorists to fund their deeds

Edited February 25, 2022 by pensacolatiger

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I'm curious about something.  I've seen a few folks here criticize the sanctions as either ineffective or inadequate but I haven't (or I've missed) proposed courses of action that folks feel would be better or more effective.  So I have some questions.

1. On the sanctions - is is your position that the sanctions are too little and we should be doing more, or that sanctions are simply the wrong tool altogether in this situation?

2. If you believe the sanctions are the wrong tool, what are you proposing instead?  Are you proposing that the US/NATO send troops into Ukraine to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in direct battle with Russian forces?  

3. If you think the sanctions are the right idea but too little, what other sanctions are you hoping to see and are you willing to see those through even if it results in economic pain for the world economy such as roiling stock markets and driving up oil/energy prices from what are now near record highs already?

4. What other realistic/feasible actions do you think we should be doing that we aren't?

5. Finally, if none of the above are things you would employ, is your position that we should just let Putin have Ukraine with little to no interference from the US and Western Europe?  Follow up:  if this is your position, do you think such a stance will embolden China to do the same thing with Taiwan and would you be willing to allow that to happen with no resistance from us?

 

Thanks.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

18 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

There’s a smack forum for those more interested in smack than serious discussion. 

Agreed. Great thread here. Good to see you and my favorite, @homersapien. I have a lot of catching up to do. 

[pensacolatiger 313]

34 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I'm curious about something.  I've seen a few folks here criticize the sanctions as either ineffective or inadequate but I haven't (or I've missed) proposed courses of action that folks feel would be better or more effective.  So I have some questions.

1. On the sanctions - is is your position that the sanctions are too little and we should be doing more, or that sanctions are simply the wrong tool altogether in this situation?

2. If you believe the sanctions are the wrong tool, what are you proposing instead?  Are you proposing that the US/NATO send troops into Ukraine to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in direct battle with Russian forces?  

3. If you think the sanctions are the right idea but too little, what other sanctions are you hoping to see and are you willing to see those through even if it results in economic pain for the world economy such as roiling stock markets and driving up oil/energy prices from what are now near record highs already?

4. What other realistic/feasible actions do you think we should be doing that we aren't?

5. Finally, if none of the above are things you would employ, is your position that we should just let Putin have Ukraine with little to no interference from the US and Western Europe?  Follow up:  if this is your position, do you think such a stance will embolden China to do the same thing with Taiwan and would you be willing to allow that to happen with no resistance from us?

 

Thanks.

I think it was a dumbass move to sacrifice energy independence immediately and now we’re too oil poor to even put Russia on oil sanctions

[homersapien 11,357]

Here's a good, realistic (and sobering) discussion on this:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-russia-is-hoping-to-achieve-in-ukraine

 

 

[Grumps 3,704]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Here's a good, realistic (and sobering) discussion on this:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-russia-is-hoping-to-achieve-in-ukraine

 

 

Very sobering. Thanks for sharing.

[GoAU 1,599]

6 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The U.S. will not fight a ground war over Ukraine.  Russia being Russia is not worth one American life.

Nor am I saying that we should - this is a very nasty situation full of pitfalls and mistakes waiting to be made.  I don't think it's a shock to anyone on this forum that I am not a Biden fan in the least, but I will always put my love of country ahead of a sitting president and I don't want to see things go tragically wrong to play "told ya so" with Biden's supporters.  

To be honest, I don't see a good way out of this at this point.  Sanctions will have minimal short term impact, especially as it appears that Russia has an outlet for the vast majority of it's oil in China.  Can't say I'm a fan of committing ground troops at this point, but I do agree with pre-positioning forces in neighboring NATO countries - if nothing else it gives Putin something to think about.  I do think we need to significantly increase the flow of weapons and aid to the Ukraine - they need all the help they can get.

One of the main problems with this situation was our commitment in the Budapest Memorandum.  Is it worth going to war with Russia over - not at this time.  Would we ever expect another country to give up (or stop attempting to acquire) nuclear weapons because we can guarantee their safety - NOPE.  Makes trying to control the spread of nukes tough.  You can bet that if Ukraine still had their nukes, Putin would still be on his side of the boarder.

[autigeremt 6,591]

I personally believe we’re too far down the road to stop pretty much anything. IF we are serious about NATO we must continue to bolster our footprint as a deterrent. The United States leadership for years have allowed this to occur along with the hell bent European decision to move away from energy independence from Russia. The communists have the European nations by the balls. 
 

The US needs to go all in on energy production and independence. We were there but the E club led by the current leadership have transferred that independence to OPEC and yes….Russia. 

[AU9377 4,922]

2 hours ago, GoAU said:

Nor am I saying that we should - this is a very nasty situation full of pitfalls and mistakes waiting to be made.  I don't think it's a shock to anyone on this forum that I am not a Biden fan in the least, but I will always put my love of country ahead of a sitting president and I don't want to see things go tragically wrong to play "told ya so" with Biden's supporters.  

To be honest, I don't see a good way out of this at this point.  Sanctions will have minimal short term impact, especially as it appears that Russia has an outlet for the vast majority of it's oil in China.  Can't say I'm a fan of committing ground troops at this point, but I do agree with pre-positioning forces in neighboring NATO countries - if nothing else it gives Putin something to think about.  I do think we need to significantly increase the flow of weapons and aid to the Ukraine - they need all the help they can get.

One of the main problems with this situation was our commitment in the Budapest Memorandum.  Is it worth going to war with Russia over - not at this time.  Would we ever expect another country to give up (or stop attempting to acquire) nuclear weapons because we can guarantee their safety - NOPE.  Makes trying to control the spread of nukes tough.  You can bet that if Ukraine still had their nukes, Putin would still be on his side of the boarder.

We need to show a unified front with NATO.  Putin has always been a bully.  He will push as far as he can.  If all Russians feel that being in Ukraine makes their lives harder, he will then have a problem.

I really don't see what U.S. politics has to do with this particular situation.  Trump is supportive of Putin.  He certainly wouldn't have backed him down in some way. Putin is smart enough not to move into a NATO country.  That would spell the end of his time as mob boss.

[pensacolatiger 313]

1 hour ago, autigeremt said:

I personally believe we’re too far down the road to stop pretty much anything. IF we are serious about NATO we must continue to bolster our footprint as a deterrent. The United States leadership for years have allowed this to occur along with the hell bent European decision to move away from energy independence from Russia. The communists have the European nations by the balls. 
 

The US needs to go all in on energy production and independence. We were there but the E club led by the current leadership have transferred that independence to OPEC and yes….Russia. 

Agreed - but honestly, I’m ok w/ electric vehicles.  Sustainability can be debated, but diversification of utilization is a much better scenario for when a commodity price gets out of hand, like now

[AU9377 4,922]

7 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

The situation got way too far ahead of itself without intervention in the first place.  Why would you relax sanctions on Russia 5 days after you were sworn in?  What purpose does that serve?  Biden’s weakness has been shown and Russia has responded.

The time to act is BEFORE the invasion, not after it has begun.  Biden *knew* Russia was going to invade weeks before hand and also knew he did have the support of his NATO allies for tough energy sanctions against Russia.  We did know that, but Biden did.  He was not arguing from a position of strength and he threw up his hands and sent his VP to Europe instead of going himself to sooth our allies.  That didn’t help.

His sanctions will do nothing to deter Russia and Biden has even said so.

The first thing I would do is get our energy production up to the point it could support Europe without Russia’s oil.  Then put on sanctions against Russia exporting oil even to China.  That would be a win/win situation.  LeBron would disagree.  Then just hold tight and build up our forces in our bases in Europe.  Peace through strength.

 

Making this about Biden is so Fox News.  There is one aggressor that is in the wrong.  That is Russia.  You honestly try to imply that Trump would have done something to prevent this invasion, yet we know two things that say that is cartoon like entertainment at best.  First, Trump had no interest in promoting a unified front, much less one that included NATO.  In addition to that, he has openly voiced his support for Putin's actions as recently as two days ago.  What on earth makes someone think that he would act any differently as President?

[AU9377 4,922]

38 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

Agreed - but honestly, I’m ok w/ electric vehicles.  Sustainability can be debated, but diversification of utilization is a much better scenario for when a commodity price gets out of hand, like now

I agree with this.