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GOP Sen. Mike Braun Says Interracial Marriage Should Be Left To The States


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GOP Sen. Mike Braun Says Interracial Marriage Should Be Left To The States

 

Amanda Terkel
Tue, March 22, 2022, 4:31 PM
 
 
Sen. Mike Braun (R-Ind.) said he believes interracial marriage should not be legal nationwide. (Photo: Anna Moneymaker via Getty Images)
 
Sen. Mike Braun (R-Ind.) said he believes interracial marriage should not be legal nationwide. (Photo: Anna Moneymaker via Getty Images)

Sen. Mike Braun (R-Ind.) said Tuesday that he believes interracial marriage should not be legal nationwide and that individual states should decide whether to allow it.

“So you would be OK with the Supreme Court leaving the question of interracial marriage to the states?” reporter Dan Carden of The Times of Northwest Indiana asked Braun.

“Yes,” the senator replied on the call with Indiana reporters. “I think that’s something ― if you’re not wanting the Supreme Court to weigh in on issues like that, you’re not going to be able to have your cake and eat it too. I think that’s hypocritical.”

The Supreme Court legalized interracial marriage nationwide in 1967, in the landmark case Loving v. Virginia.

 

The world Braun would return to is what same-sex couples faced until 2015 — their marriage was not recognized federally and might be legal in one state but not the next. That sort of discrimination had ramifications in all corners of life, including medical decisions and family planning.

Braun later walked back his comments, claiming he misunderstood the question.

“Earlier during a virtual press conference I misunderstood a line of questioning that ended up being about interracial marriage, let me be clear on that issue - there is no question the Constitution prohibits discrimination of any kind based on race, that is not something that is even up for debate, and I condemn racism in any form, at all levels and by any states, entities, or individuals,” he said in a statement provided to HuffPost.

Braun’s argument came on the second day of confirmation hearings for Supreme Court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson. Braun is not on the judiciary committee, but he ultimately will get to vote on whether to confirm her. Jackson herself is in an interracial marriage.

In the call with reporters, Braun said he wants a justice who won’t be an “activist,” and he cited Roe v. Wade, the 1973 case that legalized abortion access, as an example of judicial activism. Striking it down, he said, would be “bringing it back to a neutral point, to where that issue should never have been federalized.”

He said the “expression of individual states” should be allowed to shine through.

“If you want that diversity to shine within our federal system, there are going to be rules and proceedings that are going to be out of synch maybe with what other states would do. That’s the beauty of the system,” he said of a world where people of different races would not be allowed to get married everywhere.

This article originally appeared on HuffPost and has been updated.

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Yeah, he "misunderstood" the question. Right. 

 

This is why we fought the civil war because a lot of people thought the issue of slavery should be an individual state issue and shouldn't be something the Federal government forced it's way into. 

I'm sure there are no shortage of Conservatives who secretly think interracial marriage and gay marriage should be handled the same way. 

 

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Just now, CoffeeTiger said:

Yeah, he "misunderstood" the question. Right. 

 

This is why we fought the civil war because a lot of people thought the issue of slavery should be an individual state issue and shouldn't be something the Federal government forced it's way into. 

I'm sure there are no shortage of Conservatives who secretly think interracial marriage and gay marriage should be handled the same way. 

 

i agree a thousand percent. but what else can we expect from a party that brings white racists and facists to the fold. when i was in the service in 73 and had just made it to DC a sailor with big time top secret credentials was found murdered and tortured not long after i got there. it went away quick but it is my understanding they dropped it in public and the talk i heard from navy officers to include captains said it was thought he was killed by russian agents. people forget russians were in Nam just like the chineese and it was believed they were responsible in the deaths of many americans. thes russian supporter should be sent to some gulag in the dead of winter to show then the other side or the dark side of russia if you will. and to be honest a lot of these dummies are praising russia because trump and poot are buddies or at least trump thinks they are. and for the record if their are any dems pulling for poot i hope they pay for it as well. it is a damn shame crazy is the new normal.

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3 hours ago, homersapien said:

"He said the “expression of individual states” should be allowed to shine through."

Isn't that exactly how Jim Crow segregation came into being?

Ask the democrats who founded the KKK. Maybe they could tell you where segregation began.

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On 3/26/2022 at 1:04 PM, jj3jordan said:

Ask the democrats who founded the KKK. Maybe they could tell you where segregation began.

No need to ask.  It is quite apparent from our history.  Remember "states rights"?  I certainly do.

PS: As has been explained many many times, those Democrats who founded the KKK - and Jim Crow  -  eventually transitioned - politically speaking -  into the modern day Republican Party, largely as a result of the 1964 Voting Rights Act.  (The fact this act was pushed through by a Democratic POTUS is largely why.) 

The "Southern Strategy" (initiated by a Republican presidential candidate) largely accounts for the process by which this occurred.

For your elucidation, here's a cogent history of Democrats in the South, by decade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats

Southern Democrats

......The monopoly that the Democratic Party held over most of the South first showed major signs of breaking apart in 1948, when many White Southern Democrats, upset by the policies of desegregation enacted during the administration of Democratic President Harry Truman, created the States Rights Democratic Party. This new party, commonly referred to as the "Dixiecrats", nominated South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond for president. The Dixiecrats won most of the deep South, where Truman was not on the ballot. The new party collapsed after the election, while Thurmond became a Republican in the 1960s.

President Lyndon B. Johnson, although a southern Democrat himself, signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965. This led to heavy opposition from both Southern Democrats and Southern Republicans. Subsequent to the passage of civil rights legislation, many White southerners switched to the Republican Party at the national level. Many scholars have said that Southern whites shifted to the Republican Party due to racial conservatism.[2][3][4] Many continued to vote for Democrats at the state and local levels, especially before the Republican Revolution of 1994.

Between 2000 and 2010, Republicans gained a solid advantage over Democrats in most Southern states. In 2016, Republican candidate Donald Trump won a majority of the vote in Elliott County, Kentucky, the first time that it voted for a Republican presidential candidate. In 2020, Democrat Joe Biden won Georgia, the first time since 1992 that Georgia voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. Noted modern-day Southern Democrats include Kentucky governor Andy Beshear, Louisiana governor John Bel Edwards, North Carolina governor Roy Cooper, former Virginia governor Ralph Northam, Virginia's U.S. Senators Mark Warner and Tim Kaine, Georgia's U.S. Senators Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff, and West Virginia's U.S. Senator Joe Manchin......

See the rest of the article for the complete history leading up to this.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, homersapien said:

No need to ask.  It is quite apparent from our history.  Remember "states rights"?  I certainly do.

PS: As has been explained many many times, those Democrats who founded the KKK - and Jim Crow  -  eventually transitioned - [politically speaking -  into the modern day Republican Party, largely as a result of the 1964 Voting Rights Act.  (The fact this act was pushed through by a Democratic POTUS is largely why.) 

The "Southern Strategy" (initiated by a Republican presidential candidate) largely accounts for the process by which this occurred.

For your elucidation, here's a cogent history of Democrats in the South, by decade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Democrats

Southern Democrats

......The monopoly that the Democratic Party held over most of the South first showed major signs of breaking apart in 1948, when many White Southern Democrats, upset by the policies of desegregation enacted during the administration of Democratic President Harry Truman, created the States Rights Democratic Party. This new party, commonly referred to as the "Dixiecrats", nominated South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond for president. The Dixiecrats won most of the deep South, where Truman was not on the ballot. The new party collapsed after the election, while Thurmond became a Republican in the 1960s.

President Lyndon B. Johnson, although a southern Democrat himself, signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965. This led to heavy opposition from both Southern Democrats and Southern Republicans. Subsequent to the passage of civil rights legislation, many White southerners switched to the Republican Party at the national level. Many scholars have said that Southern whites shifted to the Republican Party due to racial conservatism.[2][3][4] Many continued to vote for Democrats at the state and local levels, especially before the Republican Revolution of 1994.

Between 2000 and 2010, Republicans gained a solid advantage over Democrats in most Southern states. In 2016, Republican candidate Donald Trump won a majority of the vote in Elliott County, Kentucky, the first time that it voted for a Republican presidential candidate. In 2020, Democrat Joe Biden won Georgia, the first time since 1992 that Georgia voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. Noted modern-day Southern Democrats include Kentucky governor Andy Beshear, Louisiana governor John Bel Edwards, North Carolina governor Roy Cooper, former Virginia governor Ralph Northam, Virginia's U.S. Senators Mark Warner and Tim Kaine, Georgia's U.S. Senators Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff, and West Virginia's U.S. Senator Joe Manchin......

See the rest of the article for the history leading up to this.

 

 

 

Only about 4-5 congressional members switched teams as a result of the civil rights act. Not a mountain shift as you say. The republican party has never been the racist party that the democrats were and are. The few that changed parties did nothing to affect the overall party. They eventually dwindled away into oblivion. 

"Many scholars have said that Southern whites shifted to the Republican Party due to racial conservatism."  

This is the gist or your bogus claim that racist parties switched sides. Undefined scholars and undefined definitions of "racial conservatism".  And from that awesome and editable source wikipedia. If that is all you got how about closing your pie hole and stop lying about the republican party.  Maybe you forgot the democrats who were all racists in alabama. George Wallace, Bull Connor. Blocking the doorway at the University of Alabama. Yeah they didn't switch teams.

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1 minute ago, jj3jordan said:

Only about 4-5 congressional members switched teams as a result of the civil rights act. Not a mountain shift as you say. The republican party has never been the racist party that the democrats were and are. The few that changed parties did nothing to affect the overall party. They eventually dwindled away into oblivion. 

"Many scholars have said that Southern whites shifted to the Republican Party due to racial conservatism."  

This is the gist or your bogus claim that racist parties switched sides. Undefined scholars and undefined definitions of "racial conservatism".  And from that awesome and editable source wikipedia. If that is all you got how about closing your pie hole and stop lying about the republican party.  Maybe you forgot the democrats who were all racists in alabama. George Wallace, Bull Connor. Blocking the doorway at the University of Alabama. Yeah they didn't switch teams.

As if the ONLY reason to switch parties is Racism!  What a crock!

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15 hours ago, homersapien said:

Between 2000 and 2010, Republicans gained a solid advantage over Democrats in most Southern states. In 2016, Republican candidate Donald Trump won a majority of the vote in Elliott County, Kentucky, the first time that it voted for a Republican presidential candidate. In 2020, Democrat Joe Biden won Georgia, the first time since 1992 that Georgia voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. Noted modern-day Southern Democrats include Kentucky governor Andy Beshear, Louisiana governor John Bel Edwards, North Carolina governor Roy Cooper, RACIST BLACK-FACE WEARING former Virginia governor Ralph Northam, Virginia's U.S. Senators Mark Warner and Tim Kaine, Georgia's U.S. Senators Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff, and West Virginia's U.S. Senator Joe Manchin......

Governor Ralph Northam says he NEVER saw his own annual page EVER in 35 years since it was published and never saw the picture on the page and he is in fact not even in the picture...after first apologizing for being in the picture. If you believe one word of this YAASF....

Governor Admits He Was in Racist Yearbook Photo - The New York Times

 

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On 3/26/2022 at 12:04 PM, jj3jordan said:

Ask the democrats who founded the KKK. Maybe they could tell you where segregation began.

 

Democrats 60+ years ago don't excuse racist today, JJ, of which primarily live in rural areas and vote Republican. 

Republicans Today are the ones who fly the Confederate Battle Flag and view the Confederacy as their "heritage" and "history" that they have to protect. Republican politicians are the ones who go to Confederate memorial ceremonies; court the vote and money of Confederate groups, and fight like hell to keep Jim Crow Confederate statues up in public government spaces.  

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Democrats 60+ years ago don't excuse racist today, JJ, of which primarily live in rural areas and vote Republican. 

Republicans Today are the ones who fly the Confederate Battle Flag and view the Confederacy as their "heritage" and "history" that they have to protect. Republican politicians are the ones who go to Confederate memorial ceremonies; court the vote and money of Confederate groups, and fight like hell to keep Jim Crow Confederate statues up in public government spaces.  

 

 

 

 

That’s a lot of accusations you are making.  Confederate heritage does not make one a racist. Neither does having a confederate flag or voting Republican or living in the country. There are no Jim Crowe statues. Do you even know where that name originated? New York.  Confederate war heroes deserve memorials for their service just like union heroes. There is no reason to whitewash history by taking them down. That is what communists do.  You are full of crap and you owe an apology to the millions of people you just accused of being racist in the south and all over the country.  Get out of my face with your hate mongering.

 

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1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

That’s a lot of accusations you are making.  Confederate heritage does not make one a racist. Neither does having a confederate flag or voting Republican or living in the country. There are no Jim Crowe statues. Do you even know where that name originated? New York.  Confederate war heroes deserve memorials for their service just like union heroes. There is no reason to whitewash history by taking them down. That is what communists do.  You are full of crap and you owe an apology to the millions of people you just accused of being racist in the south and all over the country.  Get out of my face with your hate mongering.

 

You're something else, JJ .

I never said all rural people , southern people, or Republicans are racist. I said that most  racist people are going to typically live in rural areas (not just the south), Rural California can be just as Conservative as anywhere in the South. ) I stand by that comment. Yes, there are racist democrats, yes there are racist people of color, yes there are racist in cities, but not a majority of them.

 

And No, Confederate Heritage doesn't deserve to be celebrated, and Confederate "hero's" do not exist. The Confederacy was a breakaway, rebellion that started by traitors in order to ensure that human slavery would remain legal and to safeguard their own self interests. Nothing about the confederacy was 'good' or worthy of honor in the least.

 

And before you type it out...Yes, I am well aware that most Confederate soldiers didn't own slaves and were fighting for their homes or forced into service. Sadly, Confederate soldiers were used as pawns in the game of their leaders who wanted to break away from the US to  support slavery and to help ensure their own wealth and power was preserved. That does not automatically mean the average Confederate soldier was good or fighting for a noble cause...they weren't.

The same as Nazi Soldiers are not considered hero's nor have memorials constructed for their actions in Germany despite the fact that many German soldiers in WW2 didn't share the same insane ideology of their leader and many of them died defending their homeland and their families from the Soviet/Allied invasion of the homeland. Doesn't matter.... we don't need nazi memorials to honor their cause.

 

Many Confederate statutes were funded and constructed by "laust cause" groups like the Daughters of Confederate Veterans, and were placed in public spaces to intimidate Blacks and try to 're-write' the history of the South and the Civil War by making the Southerns appear..as you say..heroic and good in virtue and cause.

 

Nobody is whitewashing history by taking your stupid statues down...we have Books JJ...we don't need statues to remind us that the Civil War happened. And like I mentioned, the irony in your words is that 'whitewashing' the sins of the South were 100% the reason most of the statues were ever put up in the first place.

 

Flying a confederate flag does not automatically make you a racist, but it will make people think you are one and makes you look uneducated for flying a flag that symbolized hatred, slavery, and the needless deaths and suffering for hundreds of thousands of people. Fly it if you want, but don't expect people to not call you out for it.

 

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30 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

You're something else, JJ .

I never said all rural people , southern people, or Republicans are racist. I said that most  racist people are going to typically live in rural areas (not just the south), Rural California can be just as Conservative as anywhere in the South. ) I stand by that comment. Yes, there are racist democrats, yes there are racist people of color, yes there are racist in cities, but not a majority of them.

 

And No, Confederate Heritage doesn't deserve to be celebrated, and Confederate "hero's" do not exist. The Confederacy was a breakaway, rebellion that started by traitors in order to ensure that human slavery would remain legal and to safeguard their own self interests. Nothing about the confederacy was 'good' or worthy of honor in the least.

 

And before you type it out...Yes, I am well aware that most Confederate soldiers didn't own slaves and were fighting for their homes or forced into service. Sadly, Confederate soldiers were used as pawns in the game of their leaders who wanted to break away from the US to  support slavery and to help ensure their own wealth and power was preserved. That does not automatically mean the average Confederate soldier was good or fighting for a noble cause...they weren't.

The same as Nazi Soldiers are not considered hero's nor have memorials constructed for their actions in Germany despite the fact that many German soldiers in WW2 didn't share the same insane ideology of their leader and many of them died defending their homeland and their families from the Soviet/Allied invasion of the homeland. Doesn't matter.... we don't need nazi memorials to honor their cause.

 

Many Confederate statutes were funded and constructed by "laust cause" groups like the Daughters of Confederate Veterans, and were placed in public spaces to intimidate Blacks and try to 're-write' the history of the South and the Civil War by making the Southerns appear..as you say..heroic and good in virtue and cause.

 

Nobody is whitewashing history by taking your stupid statues down...we have Books JJ...we don't need statues to remind us that the Civil War happened. And like I mentioned, the irony in your words is that 'whitewashing' the sins of the South were 100% the reason most of the statues were ever put up in the first place.

 

Flying a confederate flag does not automatically make you a racist, but it will make people think you are one and makes you look uneducated for flying a flag that symbolized hatred, slavery, and the needless deaths and suffering for hundreds of thousands of people. Fly it if you want, but don't expect people to not call you out for it.

 

So now that you have once again told us that that southern opposition is morally superior……….

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11 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

...what?

“Confederate heritage” is entwined with the south. Are you not saying recognizing our heritage is immoral. Personally don’t care if the statues are torn down or left standing.

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33 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

“Confederate heritage” is entwined with the south. Are you not saying recognizing our heritage is immoral.

Celebrating the "Confederate" aspect of Southern white heritage is some dumb ass s***. It would have been a much more noble endeavor for the Southern white aristocracy to figure out how to keep farming without enslaved labor than to send a bunch of poor people to die for their financial interests. 

Plenty else to celebrate about Southern heritage. Absolutely asinine to celebrate the senseless deaths of over half a million Americans.

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17 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Celebrating the "Confederate" aspect of Southern white heritage is some dumb ass s***. It would have been a much more noble endeavor for the Southern white aristocracy to figure out how to keep farming without enslaved labor than to send a bunch of poor people to die for their financial interests. 

Plenty else to celebrate about Southern heritage. Absolutely asinine to celebrate the senseless deaths of over half a million Americans.

Quote

You make sense. Just never looked at it in the sense of “celebrating”. Never cared for the flag business and honestly never gave thought as why.

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16 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

You're something else, JJ .

I never said all rural people , southern people, or Republicans are racist. I said that most  racist people are going to typically live in rural areas (not just the south), Rural California can be just as Conservative as anywhere in the South. ) I stand by that comment. Yes, there are racist democrats, yes there are racist people of color, yes there are racist in cities, but not a majority of them.

 

And No, Confederate Heritage doesn't deserve to be celebrated, and Confederate "hero's" do not exist. The Confederacy was a breakaway, rebellion that started by traitors in order to ensure that human slavery would remain legal and to safeguard their own self interests. Nothing about the confederacy was 'good' or worthy of honor in the least.

 

And before you type it out...Yes, I am well aware that most Confederate soldiers didn't own slaves and were fighting for their homes or forced into service. Sadly, Confederate soldiers were used as pawns in the game of their leaders who wanted to break away from the US to  support slavery and to help ensure their own wealth and power was preserved. That does not automatically mean the average Confederate soldier was good or fighting for a noble cause...they weren't.

The same as Nazi Soldiers are not considered hero's nor have memorials constructed for their actions in Germany despite the fact that many German soldiers in WW2 didn't share the same insane ideology of their leader and many of them died defending their homeland and their families from the Soviet/Allied invasion of the homeland. Doesn't matter.... we don't need nazi memorials to honor their cause.

 

Many Confederate statutes were funded and constructed by "laust cause" groups like the Daughters of Confederate Veterans, and were placed in public spaces to intimidate Blacks and try to 're-write' the history of the South and the Civil War by making the Southerns appear..as you say..heroic and good in virtue and cause.

 

Nobody is whitewashing history by taking your stupid statues down...we have Books JJ...we don't need statues to remind us that the Civil War happened. And like I mentioned, the irony in your words is that 'whitewashing' the sins of the South were 100% the reason most of the statues were ever put up in the first place.

 

Flying a confederate flag does not automatically make you a racist, but it will make people think you are one and makes you look uneducated for flying a flag that symbolized hatred, slavery, and the needless deaths and suffering for hundreds of thousands of people. Fly it if you want, but don't expect people to not call you out for it.

 

Well that's much better...only a MAJORITY of us southern rural conservative republican voters are racist.  For a sec I thought you were tagging all of us. 

Thank you mister arbiter of heritage and heroes.  Confederate soldiers and leaders had more virtue and courage fighting for their homes than a bunch of loud mouth racists getting triggered by some 150 year old statue of a long haired dude on a horse. We need to remove all the war memorials now?  We have books to tell us all about our wars don't we. At least what the author wants us to know. You going to let a book exist in your official historical library that espouses the civil war was actually started about trade and not slavery?  Slavery became an issue after it started?  The north had slaves too or did you not read that..in a book. Or will you ban that book?

You mentioning Nazis in the same breath as me and millions of native southerners?? That is low even for you. 

There are millions of racists living all over the country especially in the north who don't fly flags. Most I would guess don't fly them in order to keep jerks like you from calling them names.  So you know some Daughters of Confederate Veterans?  They all racists too? 150 years later you think they are working hard out there on I-65 trying to make some headway in intimidating blacks who might drive by there in their mercedes or bmw or prius or tesla or 72 caprice?

You need to get a life besides making an ass of yourself on this forum.

 

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19 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Thank you mister arbiter of heritage and heroes.  Confederate soldiers and leaders had more virtue and courage fighting for their homes than a bunch of loud mouth racists getting triggered by some 150 year old statue of a long haired dude on a horse. We need to remove all the war memorials now?  We have books to tell us all about our wars don't we. At least what the author wants us to know.

 

You going to let a book exist in your official historical library that espouses the civil war was actually started about trade and not slavery?  Slavery became an issue after it started?  The north had slaves too or did you not read that..in a book. Or will you ban that book?

 

 

 

Some books may say this, but they would be incorrect. This is all part of the "Lost Cause Fallacy" Where for years and decades after the war Southerns tried to "re-write" their history to decrease the importance of slavery and to make the Confederate cause seem more noble and less evil. It was, as you say, a whitewashing of history, and it is incorrect.  The Confederacy and many of the Confederate States made it very clear...in their own declarations and words ..that the entire point of the Confederacy from day #1 was to preserve the institution of slavery. 

If the Confederacy itself declared that Slavery was the primary reason for it's formation then what makes you think that it wasn't?

 

The new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. - Alexander Stephens - Vice President of the Confederacy- 1861

 

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. -Mississippi Declaration of Succession

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection. - South Carolina Declaration of Secession 

 

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property - Georgia Declaration of Succession

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? - Texas Declaration of Succession

 

19 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

 

 

You mentioning Nazis in the same breath as me and millions of native southerners?? That is low even for you. 

.I didn't say you were nazi's..I was making a apt comparison between the two different societies that both fought wars for immoral causes and how they handled the aftermath after defeat. 

19 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

There are millions of racists living all over the country especially in the north who don't fly flags. Most I would guess don't fly them in order to keep jerks like you from calling them names.

Ok...? Why are you saying this as if it's a bad thing? I hope I make racists uncomfortable. 

19 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

 

 So you know some Daughters of Confederate Veterans?  They all racists too? 150 years later you think they are working hard out there on I-65 trying to make some headway in intimidating blacks who might drive by there in their mercedes or bmw or prius or tesla or 72 caprice?

No, I'm sure they are not all racists, but I do know the history of the DoCV, I know why they were founded, their history in attempting to whitewash the history of the Confederacy, and their attempts decades ago to intermediate and harass black people.  Just because they are not evil racist or burning crosses in their backyards, doesn't make their cause or history good and noble. 

And Yes, the giant confederate flags they like to place along the roadways act only to harm the reputation of the South even further and create a bad impression on the many people who pass by it. It may very well intemidate or cause bad feelings for Black people passing by it, I'm not going to pretend to know their feelings, 

But it does act to enforce the already negative stereotypes many people across the world have about the Southern U.S. It's time we move forward into the 21st century and stop pretending that the Confederacy and Civil War was some good and noble cause. 

 

19 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

You need together a life besides making an ass of yourself on this forum.

 

 Despite your accusations I have not called you or all southerners  racist's, We are debating on a political forum, stop taking it all so personal. 

 

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1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Where for years and decades after the war Southerns tried to "re-write" their history to decrease the importance of slavery and to make the Confederate cause seem more noble and less evil. It was, as you say, a whitewashing of history, and it is incorrect.  The Confederacy and many of the Confederate States made it very clear...in their own declarations and words ..that the entire point of the Confederacy from day #1 was to preserve the institution of slavery. 

Slavery as the primary cause of the war certainly downplayed in my Alabama History elementary level. I do understand the world history of slavery and the agricultural based southern economy was well suited for the institution.

Amazing the numbers of people accepting slavery was an American problem

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlindsay/2019/08/30/after-all-didnt-america-invent-slavery/?sh=31267baa7ef6
 

By far the most shocking result to emerge from his years of polling is this: Students overwhelmingly believe that slavery “was an American problem . . .  and they are very fuzzy about the history of slavery prior to the Colonial era. Their entire education about slavery was confined to America.”

 

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8 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Slavery as the primary cause of the war certainly downplayed in my Alabama History elementary level.

Same here. The version I got wasn't "celebratory" but it was certainly a bit sympathetic.

9 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Amazing the numbers of people accepting slavery was an American problem

It wasn't just an American problem, but it was certainly an American problem. As for so many Americans thinking that it is just an American problem, that's strange. Even given how US-centric and limited our world history curriculum is, I recall numerous mentions of the Aztecs, Egyptians and Romans leaning hard on slave labor. Perhaps that's the issue, though. It doesn't really get talked about more than that. You could have a dozen pages discussing the pyramids and only one quick mention of who dragged the stones up the ramps. 

The one that gets me is the Belgians in the Congo. We really should've learned about that. 

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2 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Some books may say this, but they would be incorrect. This is all part of the "Lost Cause Fallacy" Where for years and decades after the war Southerns tried to "re-write" their history to decrease the importance of slavery and to make the Confederate cause seem more noble and less evil. It was, as you say, a whitewashing of history, and it is incorrect.  The Confederacy and many of the Confederate States made it very clear...in their own declarations and words ..that the entire point of the Confederacy from day #1 was to preserve the institution of slavery. 

If the Confederacy itself declared that Slavery was the primary reason for it's formation then what makes you think that it wasn't?

 

The new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. - Alexander Stephens - Vice President of the Confederacy- 1861

 

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. -Mississippi Declaration of Succession

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection. - South Carolina Declaration of Secession 

 

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property - Georgia Declaration of Succession

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? - Texas Declaration of Succession

 

.I didn't say you were nazi's..I was making a apt comparison between the two different societies that both fought wars for immoral causes and how they handled the aftermath after defeat. 

Ok...? Why are you saying this as if it's a bad thing? I hope I make racists uncomfortable. 

No, I'm sure they are not all racists, but I do know the history of the DoCV, I know why they were founded, their history in attempting to whitewash the history of the Confederacy, and their attempts decades ago to intermediate and harass black people.  Just because they are not evil racist or burning crosses in their backyards, doesn't make their cause or history good and noble. 

And Yes, the giant confederate flags they like to place along the roadways act only to harm the reputation of the South even further and create a bad impression on the many people who pass by it. It may very well intemidate or cause bad feelings for Black people passing by it, I'm not going to pretend to know their feelings, 

But it does act to enforce the already negative stereotypes many people across the world have about the Southern U.S. It's time we move forward into the 21st century and stop pretending that the Confederacy and Civil War was some good and noble cause. 

 

 Despite your accusations I have not called you or all southerners  racist's, We are debating on a political forum, stop taking it all so personal. 

 

Despite your denials, you did.

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53 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Slavery as the primary cause of the war certainly downplayed in my Alabama History elementary level. I do understand the world history of slavery and the agricultural based southern economy was well suited for the institution.

Amazing the numbers of people accepting slavery was an American problem

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlindsay/2019/08/30/after-all-didnt-america-invent-slavery/?sh=31267baa7ef6
 

By far the most shocking result to emerge from his years of polling is this: Students overwhelmingly believe that slavery “was an American problem . . .  and they are very fuzzy about the history of slavery prior to the Colonial era. Their entire education about slavery was confined to America.”

 

 

Yep, Most of my High School history classes were taught by conservatives football coaches (like many people I assume), and I grew up with the impression of the Civil War being more accurately called the "War of Northern Aggression", That slavery was a small sub-issue and the Confederacy was really about States rights to self determination and the blockade of trade goods from the North. That the North fired the first shots and invaded the South. 

 

There's small nuggets of truth in all of that, slaves were a big part of Southerner economy, the North was more industrialized, had already benefitted from being built up by slaves and the South felt they weren't being given proper representation in federal government. All true....but it's an inscapable reality that a primary driver of the founding of the confederacy was to stop the US government from freeing that Slaves and making slavery illegal. The Confederacy fought and died to preserve slavery...and that's just simply unforgivable. That's the legacy of the Civil War and the Southern rebellion. You can't sugar coat it and people need to stop pretending that it was a noble and righous cause and stop flying flags, putting up statues, and honoring the leaders and generals. Southerners have to move on...stop defending/justifying the past and create a bright new future for themselves.  

 

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4 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Despite your denials, you did.

 

Quote it. 

 

You also didn't answer the question of what makes you believe the Confederacy was started and the war fought over trade and trade rights and not primarily over slavery? 

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