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Where you are on the issues vs how you vote


TitanTiger

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38 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Most of this proposed legislation is an overreaction to an overreaction that’s not based on solid science. As is often the case, the best answer is in between.
 

There is a huge trend in adolescents developing gender dysphoria who don’t meet the longstanding DSM standard for a diagnosis supporting medical transition of having had it since a young age. Most of these young people have other mental health issues that many providers ignore or too quickly assume are caused by the dysphoria, instead of the other way around. It’s particularly prevalent amongst autistic teens. Most are not being assisted by folks with the proper qualifications.

https://thecritic.co.uk/trans-activism-before-medical-standards/
 

There is grave harm being done to many young people and I’m confident we’ll see a ton of lawsuits in the next few years. Young people can socially transition if they want without subjecting their body to hormones and puberty blockers that are handed out far more easily than you seem to think.

This article is by two professionals who’ve assisted numerous young people in transitioning. One of them is trans. They’re seeing very alarming trends. Everyone remotely interested in this topic should read it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

"Most of this proposed legislation is an overreaction to an overreaction that’s not based on solid science. As is often the case, the best answer is in between."

Fair. Thank you for at least acknowledging my overarching point about legislation. 

"There is a huge trend in adolescents developing gender dysphoria who don’t meet the longstanding DSM standard for a diagnosis supporting medical transition of having had it since a young age."

There was a huge trend a couple decades ago of people coming out as gay. Is that because we suddenly had more gay people or because society finally allowed it?

The DSM standard doesn't work here because no one is taking their toddler to a doctor to document in a medical record that they think their child is transgender. 

"Young people can socially transition if they want without subjecting their body to hormones and puberty blockers that are handed out far more easily than you seem to think."

Social transitioning is nice, but it is not enough. 

Please don't patronize me by telling me what I "seem to think" about a topic with which I am extremely well versed. Academically and practically. 

 

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1 minute ago, cbo said:

"Most of this proposed legislation is an overreaction to an overreaction that’s not based on solid science. As is often the case, the best answer is in between."

Fair. Thank you for at least acknowledging my overarching point about legislation. 

"There is a huge trend in adolescents developing gender dysphoria who don’t meet the longstanding DSM standard for a diagnosis supporting medical transition of having had it since a young age."

There was a huge trend a couple decades ago of people coming out as gay. Is that because we suddenly had more gay people or because society finally allowed it?

The DSM standard doesn't work here because no one is taking their toddler to a doctor to document in a medical record that they think their child is transgender. 

"Young people can socially transition if they want without subjecting their body to hormones and puberty blockers that are handed out far more easily than you seem to think."

Social transitioning is nice, but it is not enough. 

Please don't patronize me by telling me what I "seem to think" about a topic with which I am extremely well versed. Academically and practically. 

 

You indicated the bar was high and most were being seen by folks “certified” to address it— to which certification process were you referring? Don’t patronize me, either. I’m pretty informed myself. My view used to be much closer to yours, BTW. Did you happen to read the Washington Post article I linked to?

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29 minutes ago, cbo said:

"And yet for years we’ve just heard “it’s reversible,'"

No we haven't. No one in the mainstream was even having a serious conversation about this a few years ago. 

I didn’t say decades. I said years. 
 

29 minutes ago, cbo said:

"Combine that with the knowledge that close to 8 out of 10 kids that present with gender dysphoria end up deciding later that they aren’t trans after all"

This isn't true. Maybe you will point me to some random study. I can point you to many that refute this. Common sense will tell you this makes no sense. Why would anyone chose this life?

Multiple studies have shown anywhere from 65 to 87% of kids who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria desist in having these feelings later. Here’s one recent follow up study from 2021 which followed boys with gender dysphoria:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

What seems to be happening with most of these kids Is that they grow up to be adult homosexuals. In saying this, I’m not saying they chose this for fun. I’m saying that kids don’t always understand what they’re feeling. They get confused. Or they mistake same sex attractions for something else. 

29 minutes ago, cbo said:

"And along with sterility there’s the whole thing of “yeah you might also have a severely undeveloped penis and be unable to really even have sex later” that seems rather concerning."

If you knew anything about what transgender people experience, you would know that having an undeveloped penis is not at the top of their list of problems. Of course it's a concern. But not compared to the bullying they constantly receive for being who they are.  Feeling completely out of place in your own body.

Easy to say when you aren’t the one who can’t have sex after deciding you weren’t trans after all, can’t feel anything down there if you persist through with a vaginoplasty with a high risk surgery, can never have children. 
 

29 minutes ago, cbo said:

Also, there are many different ways to have sex and the younger generation is much more open-minded than the people on this board. Don't be cute by saying what "seems rather concerning" to people you know nothing about. 

And don’t be patronizingly dismissive of real and serious sexual issues (psychological and physical) just because they’re happening to other people so long as you can hold to an ideological position on the subject.

I was underselling it.  It IS concerning to most people.  But kids don’t have the capacity to fully understand what those losses will mean to them later  

 

29 minutes ago, cbo said:

I noticed that, for the second time, you did not address the main point of my argument. Why do politicians get to make these decisions for these kids and their families? Hell, why does it matter so much to you what anyone else does? The only damage that could be done is damage done to themselves. Why is that a problem for anyone else?

For the same reason we have all sorts of other medical laws and regulations regarding treatments and drugs, not just for children but adults as well, because of potential for lasting health issues, side effects and other such things.  We don’t just leave it up to whatever people want. 
 

29 minutes ago, cbo said:

You also did not address suicide rates for transgender youth, which is a very real threat. If you are so concerned about all the risks, why not?

Of course I’m concerned. But can one be concerned while also pointing out there may be less invasive, less risky ways to help with that?

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26 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You indicated the bar was high and most were being seen by folks “certified” to address it— to which certification process were you referring? Don’t patronize me, either. I’m pretty informed myself. My view used to be much closer to yours, BTW. Did you happen to read the Washington Post article I linked to?

I'm referring to MDs who go through the same licensure, education, and training process as the doctor who operates on someone's heart. 

I skimmed the WaPo article and noticed it was written by two psychologists, who don't have the ability to prescribe medications in 45 states, if we want to get in to credentials. And it said "we enthusiastically support the appropriate gender-affirming medical care for trans youth, and we are disgusted by the legislation trying to ban it." Seems like they are aware of some bad therapists and physicians erroneously expediting the appropriate process to gender therapy. Just as there are bad providers and bad employees at every job. 

 It does seem to have some salient points, so I will give it a full read tomorrow. And I honestly do appreciate you sharing it. 

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23 minutes ago, cbo said:

I'm referring to MDs who go through the same licensure, education, and training process as the doctor who operates on someone's heart. 

I skimmed the WaPo article and noticed it was written by two psychologists, who don't have the ability to prescribe medications in 45 states, if we want to get in to credentials. And it said "we enthusiastically support the appropriate gender-affirming medical care for trans youth, and we are disgusted by the legislation trying to ban it." Seems like they are aware of some bad therapists and physicians erroneously expediting the appropriate process to gender therapy. Just as there are bad providers and bad employees at every job. 

 It does seem to have some salient points, so I will give it a full read tomorrow. And I honestly do appreciate you sharing it. 

Folks who operate on hearts are specialists with years of focused training. There is no similar medical speciality for this. Any MD can prescribe medications solely based on being a physician— no specialized knowledge required for the particular issue they are prescribing medication for.
 

You’ll be hard pressed to find another physician, much less the scores prescribing life changing substances, with more experience on this topic than these two psychologists. I appreciate you saying you’ll read it tomorrow. As you noted, they are not at all anti-trans. They are horrified by what they see in the state of care for gender dysphoric youth, including this:

“Another reason that teens can receive substandard mental health care is that gender clinics are disastrously overwhelmed. Most have a single social worker who completes a brief “intake,” relying instead on other mental health clinicians in the community to assess patients and offer their conclusions. Frequently, those community clinicians, just like the parents, assume that a more comprehensive assessment will occur in the gender specialty clinic. But in our experience, and based on what our colleagues share, this is rarely the case. Most clinics appear to assume that a referral means a mental health provider in the community has diagnosed gender dysphoria and thereby given the green light for medical intervention.

When working in gender clinics, we’ve also both received letters from therapists who had “assessed” patients they were referring to us. An astonishing number of these were nothing but a paragraph that stated the youth identified as trans, had dysphoria and wanted hormones, so that course was recommended. There are nearly 200,000 members of the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association. Add to that the clinical social workers, marriage counselors and family therapists. The overwhelming majority of those well-intentioned professionals receive limited or no training in the assessment of gender-diverse youth. (We receive requests frequently from people eager for more comprehensive, nuanced trainings, which we both deliver.) In simple terms, the demand for competent care has outstripped the supply of competent providers.

In professional circles, we hear from pediatric endocrinologists and others who prescribe hormones for trans youth. Many openly discuss how they use the adult informed-consent model of care with their teen patients, which almost always means no mental health involvement and sometimes no parent input, either. “If you are trans, I believe you,” says A.J. Eckert, the medical director of Anchor Health Initiative in Connecticut. Eckert is wary of psychologists who follow the guidelines by completing a comprehensive assessment before recommending medical intervention for youths. “Gender-affirming medicine,” Eckert holds, means that “you are best equipped to make decisions about your own body,” full stop. These providers do not always realize they’ve confessed to ignoring the standards of care.”

The level of care is absolutely, mind boggling subpar for the types of medical interventions that are routinely happening more due to ideology/belief than science.

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I'm reading all of your posts. I'm no closer to a firm opinion and that might be a good thing. It's a complicated conversation and I am still seeing both sides of it. 

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13 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

The level of care is absolutely, mind boggling subpar for the types of medical interventions that are routinely happening more due to ideology/belief than science.

A parent would be crazy to subject their children to this ideology and should think twice before believing these types of experts.  Kids are going to blame their parents for anything that happened in their teenage years through their 20’s or so, until they realize the parents have allowed them to grow up.

Can you imagine the liability these medical experts are going to experience if the parents objected to surgeries when the state agreed to it as in Washington, Oregon and California?

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Just now, TitanTiger said:

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Not that it was directed at me, but I'm super okay with men having an informed opinion on abortion.

As for the men having babies thing, that's the second time I've seen it mentioned since the leak broke. I don't recall having heard it mentioned at all (other than in philosophical conversations) and it's never been brought up by anyone I know as an important issue, so I'm curious that that's about?

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20 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Not that it was directed at me, but I'm super okay with men having an informed opinion on abortion.

As for the men having babies thing, that's the second time I've seen it mentioned since the leak broke. I don't recall having heard it mentioned at all (other than in philosophical conversations) and it's never been brought up by anyone I know as an important issue, so I'm curious that that's about?

No, definitely not directed at you, or anyone in particular here.

It's just a collision of two common and contradictory takes that get tossed into discussions on these two issues, and they both happen to be held by roughly the same group of people.

The former is used a good bit:  "No uterus, no opinion" type of silliness.

But on the latter one, it's become an increasingly common thing for people who push trans language as the only right and politically correct way to talk about it.  Thus we get Apple and Google introducing emojis of pregnant 'men', newspapers and other outlets changing their terms to "pregnant people" rather than "pregnant women" and so on.  

Thus the meme.

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37 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Not that it was directed at me, but I'm super okay with men having an informed opinion on abortion.

As for the men having babies thing, that's the second time I've seen it mentioned since the leak broke. I don't recall having heard it mentioned at all (other than in philosophical conversations) and it's never been brought up by anyone I know as an important issue, so I'm curious that that's about?

It's not a serious issue. There have been some female-to male transgender people who have had babies. It is very rare and they were adults. I find it hard to believe that anyone truly cares. Usually it is used as an attempt to make the transgender community look silly. Or as a pointless distraction. 

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3 minutes ago, cbo said:

It's not a serious issue. There have been some female-to male transgender people who have had babies. It is very rare and they were adults. I find it hard to believe that anyone truly cares. Usually it is used as an attempt to make the transgender community look silly. Or as a pointless distraction. 

It's used to make the concept and the enforced acceptable language be seen for the silliness it is.  If people don't want to have it poked fun at, stop saying dumb s*** like "men can get pregnant", "women can have penises", or "pregnant people."

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27 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The former is used a good bit:  "No uterus, no opinion" type of silliness.

But on the latter one, it's become an increasingly common thing for people who push trans language as the only right and politically correct way to talk about it.  Thus we get Apple and Google introducing emojis of pregnant 'men', newspapers and other outlets changing their terms to "pregnant people" rather than "pregnant women" and so on.  

On the former, I've heard a lot of versions of "men shouldn't be telling women...", which falls far shy of saying they can't have opinions. But I trust you've heard it stated otherwise and I admit to having filters just like any reasonable "opponent" in the conversation. 

As for the latter, I'm still going to characterize that as an extreme that just isn't a meaningful part of the discourse, thus rendering that meme more masturbatory than provocative. Good satire actually has something important to say.

Edited by McLoofus
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18 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

No, definitely not directed at you, or anyone in particular here.

It's just a collision of two common and contradictory takes that get tossed into discussions on these two issues, and they both happen to be held by roughly the same group of people.

The former is used a good bit:  "No uterus, no opinion" type of silliness.

But on the latter one, it's become an increasingly common thing for people who push trans language as the only right and politically correct way to talk about it.  Thus we get Apple and Google introducing emojis of pregnant 'men', newspapers and other outlets changing their terms to "pregnant people" rather than "pregnant women" and so on.  

Thus the meme.

I'm not sure how common the "men having babies" thing is, at least in proportion to how often it is used in anti-transgender rhetoric. Earlier in this thread, you made the relevant point that gender transitioning leads to infertility. You probably know that "men having babies" is uncommon. 

I actually do agree with you about the emoji thing. Pretty dumb. Perhaps well-intentioned, but it comes off a bit performative and clueless. Hurts more than it helps. 

I also agree with you that men are of course allowed to have an opinion on abortion. We are humans and it is an important issue. How could you not have an opinion? Mine happens to be that it's a woman's right to choose. But that's still an opinion. 

Finally, I strongly dislike these types of memes, which are overly simplistic and dismissive. Many people who are much less informed than you, will remember some meme they saw and think they have an informed opinion. 

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I think the "emoji" thing is just silly. 

Apple has emojis of alien heads, piles of poop with a face on it, cat faces, mermaids, flying fish babies, unicorns, etc. 

The outrage about a big bellied pregnant man emoji is just performative anger about nothing. 

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34 minutes ago, cbo said:

There is big money in all healthcare. I agree that doesn't help here. But that is a whole other problem that is not specific to this conversation. 

I think it is. Most needed care doesn’t have this kind of marketing intended to persuade. You won’t find many cardiac surgeons doing this. Doctors refer patients to specialists, most specialists aren’t out there trying to sell you on their services.

There’s big money behind the marketing— investors are counting on it.

https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market/amp
 

Note the “pitfall”:

Pitfalls & Challenges:
  • High cost of the procedures
  • Rise in incidence of sex change regret


The more a medical service is sold as a solution to larger problems, the more regret there will be when it doesn’t do what’s promised.

This person is particularly vile, advertising to young girls on TikTok— you know, like most cardiac surgeons do:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/courage-strength-optimism/top-pediatrician-teenage-transgender-medicine-a-deadly-path

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Then the Gov of the Great State of Oregon says, "hold my beer."  You can't make this stuff up!

PORTLAND, Ore. (TND) — Schools in Oregon will soon be required to place menstrual products in all restrooms, including boys' restrooms, and Portland Public Schools are preparing to follow that requirement.

https://kpic.com/news/local/oregon-public-schools-will-put-period-products-instructions-in-every-student-bathroom

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17 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I think the "emoji" thing is just silly. 

Apple has emojis of alien heads, piles of poop with a face on it, cat faces, mermaids, flying fish babies, unicorns, etc. 

The outrage about a big bellied pregnant man emoji is just performative anger about nothing. 

Exactly, it's just giving Apple the attention they wanted. Falling for a marketing ploy. 

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19 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I think the "emoji" thing is just silly. 

Apple has emojis of alien heads, piles of poop with a face on it, cat faces, mermaids, flying fish babies, unicorns, etc. 

The outrage about a big bellied pregnant man emoji is just performative anger about nothing. 

They intend things like poop piles and alien heads to be funny and silly.  That's not their reason for creating pregnant man emojis.  It's anything but silly to them, or the people who lobbied to get them made.  It's performative virtue signaling of the highest order.

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19 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I think it is. Most needed care doesn’t have this kind of marketing intended to persuade. You won’t find many cardiac surgeons doing this. Doctors refer patients to specialists, most specialists aren’t out there trying to sell you on their services.

There’s big money behind the marketing— investors are counting on it.

https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/sex-reassignment-surgery-market/amp
 

Note the “pitfall”:

Pitfalls & Challenges:
  • High cost of the procedures
  • Rise in incidence of sex change regret


The more a medical service is sold as a solution to larger problems, the more regret there will be when it doesn’t do what’s promised.

This person is particularly vile, advertising to young girls on TikTok— you know, like most cardiac surgeons do:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/courage-strength-optimism/top-pediatrician-teenage-transgender-medicine-a-deadly-path

If you think marketing is not a huge part of healthcare on every level, I don't even know what to tell you. 

I guarantee you there are cardiac surgeons advertising on TikTok. You just won't find any articles about it because it is not controversial. 

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6 minutes ago, cbo said:

If you think marketing is not a huge part of healthcare on every level, I don't even know what to tell you. 

I guarantee you there are cardiac surgeons advertising on TikTok. You just won't find any articles about it because it is not controversial. 

If you can’t see the distinction between what this doc is doing and the market she’s targeting, I don’t know what to tell you. 

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3 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

If you can’t see the distinction between what this doc is doing and the market she’s targeting, I don’t know what to tell you. 

The entire point of your post was that these doctors are marketing in ways that physicians providing "needed care" do not. And that the money behind these services is somehow different than other healthcare services. My entire point was that this is not accurate. That was all. 

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12 minutes ago, cbo said:

The entire point of your post was that these doctors are marketing in ways that physicians providing "needed care" do not. And that the money behind these services is somehow different than other healthcare services. My entire point was that this is not accurate. That was all. 

My point clearly eluded you.

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