There should be no weapon transfers to Ukraine

[GunsmithAU 383]

Ukraine is historically the most corrupt and poor nation within Europe. This compounds with the propensity of the Ukrainian state and nationls to participate within the illicit arms trade since the fall of the Soviet Union. 

Throw this in with the inability of western nations to track the movement of arms within the country as well as with the surfacing videos (legitamacy questioned) of western arms being sold within the country already and you have a situation ripe for the transfer of arms to insurgency or terrorism organizations. 

Examples of how important this issues it can be found in the power concentrated withing ISIS following the shipment to western arms to anti-Assad forces within Syria. 

 

The transfer of arms to shady governments simply because they are the stand in for the never ending proxy war with Russia produces externalities with major human rights questions as well as adds instability to international peace and security. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/19/politics/us-weapons-ukraine-intelligence/index.html

[aubiefifty 16,660]

i disagree. these people are being attacked by one of our biggest enemies in the world.they need help. have you not seen the bodies? then who is next? i mean it beats guarding poppy fields in larry land.

[CoffeeTiger 5,075]

like the article mentioned. Our military and government know the risks, but are willing to take them at this time. 

Protecting Ukraine isn't just a regional proxy war, Russia is taking military action to invade and depose the governments of it's neighbors, which is a real threat to European and World security and stability. 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunsmithAU 383]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

like the article mentioned. Our military and government know the risks, but are willing to take them at this time. 

Protecting Ukraine isn't just a regional proxy war, Russia is taking military action to invade and depose the governments of it's neighbors, which is a real threat to European and World security and stability. 

 

 

 

 

 

The US has been invading and deposing govts for the better part of a century. The negative potential for trafficked arms is much higher than you realize. Everything from ISIS to the issues in Rowanda in the 90s, Myanmar currently all exists because if the loose willy nilly transfer of arms by the US and other western powers. 

Hell even the gray market giving of weapons like to the Saudis has resulted in mass genocide within Yemen, yet because of the Saudi oil, it's ignored. 

The US shouldn't be giving any foreign nation or group weapons. Period. Not to extremist groups in the middle east, not to NATO members, and certainly not the to corrupt s*** state that is Ukraine. 

[AU9377 4,910]

15 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

The US has been invading and deposing govts for the better part of a century. The negative potential for trafficked arms is much higher than you realize. Everything from ISIS to the issues in Rowanda in the 90s, Myanmar currently all exists because if the loose willy nilly transfer of arms by the US and other western powers. 

Hell even the gray market giving of weapons like to the Saudis has resulted in mass genocide within Yemen, yet because of the Saudi oil, it's ignored. 

The US shouldn't be giving any foreign nation or group weapons. Period. Not to extremist groups in the middle east, not to NATO members, and certainly not the to corrupt s*** state that is Ukraine. 

There is no comparison between actions we have taken and what Russia is currently engaged in.  What you suggest is that we pretend the world isn't out there and to not engage at any cost.  We did that for much too long a period of time before we entered WWII.  That was a lesson learned that we should not forget.

[GunsmithAU 383]

14 hours ago, AU9377 said:

There is no comparison between actions we have taken and what Russia is currently engaged in.  What you suggest is that we pretend the world isn't out there and to not engage at any cost.  We did that for much too long a period of time before we entered WWII.  That was a lesson learned that we should not forget.

This pretends that improper interference and the extreme reparations required by Germany in WW1. Without this, Germany never falls into the chaos required for the rise of Nazism. 

 

I'm not saying that that the US has done and what is going on in eastern Europe are equivalent, just that paralellea exist which extremely undermine the high ground. 

 

The US has poured more into the Ukrainian conflict that double every other nation. This is a massive amount of arms and supplies being purchased by the state at the same time that state spending has created the massive inflation problem. 

 

The shady selling of arms to Saudi has lead to more than 300k dead in Yemen, in somalia over half a million in a US supported regime, millions killed or displaced by ISIS/war on terror with massive US arms diverted from legit sources or given to extremist groups. Funding, arming and training the mujahideen, the US weapons showing up in the shan state. 

 

Ukraine is a terribly corrupt country with a long history of arm trafficking. It's terrible what is happening to them, but the actions of the US do more to endanger the world than protect it. 

[TexasTiger 12,796]

On 4/21/2022 at 11:20 AM, GunsmithAU said:

The US has been invading and deposing govts for the better part of a century. The negative potential for trafficked arms is much higher than you realize. Everything from ISIS to the issues in Rowanda in the 90s, Myanmar currently all exists because if the loose willy nilly transfer of arms by the US and other western powers. 

Hell even the gray market giving of weapons like to the Saudis has resulted in mass genocide within Yemen, yet because of the Saudi oil, it's ignored. 

The US shouldn't be giving any foreign nation or group weapons. Period. Not to extremist groups in the middle east, not to NATO members, and certainly not the to corrupt s*** state that is Ukraine. 

Is there any line for you? If Putin attacks a NATO country? Were we wrong to enter WWII in your mind? 

[AU9377 4,910]

18 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

This pretends that improper interference and the extreme reparations required by Germany in WW1. Without this, Germany never falls into the chaos required for the rise of Nazism. 

 

I'm not saying that that the US has done and what is going on in eastern Europe are equivalent, just that paralellea exist which extremely undermine the high ground. 

 

The US has poured more into the Ukrainian conflict that double every other nation. This is a massive amount of arms and supplies being purchased by the state at the same time that state spending has created the massive inflation problem. 

 

The shady selling of arms to Saudi has lead to more than 300k dead in Yemen, in somalia over half a million in a US supported regime, millions killed or displaced by ISIS/war on terror with massive US arms diverted from legit sources or given to extremist groups. Funding, arming and training the mujahideen, the US weapons showing up in the shan state. 

 

Ukraine is a terribly corrupt country with a long history of arm trafficking. It's terrible what is happening to them, but the actions of the US do more to endanger the world than protect it. 

I understand the German economic struggles after WWII.  Your points are valid regarding what led to the rise in German nationalism and the ultimate opening for fascists like Hitler.  Even so, that doesn't excuse any government's actions when they decide to exterminate people as though they were diseased cattle.

I would argue that if Germany could afford to build the military machine it built in preparation to start another world war, they were capable of helping their citizens as well.  Saudi Arabia is a problem, as are their actions in Yemen.  The problem is that that entire area of the world is a problem and we literally have to pick our poision in order to contain the problem.  The only real answer is to strip them of their bargaining power and that means becoming less reliant on their one resource, crude oil.

The Ukrainians and Saudis are very different. Our motivations are also very different.

[autigeremt 6,560]

Ukraine is not only under attack by a thug and a power monger but it's also a strategically important part of the world for global steel and agriculture. The waves it will cause if Russia takes control of the nation will be very, very impactful. Not to mention the human wreckage........

[homersapien 11,347]

I think the U.S. main priority geopolitically should be to promote democracy globally.

It won't guarantee peace, but history suggests the more democratic other countries are, the less likely they will wage war.  History also demonstrates just the opposite regarding authoritarian governments, who rely on a "supreme leader" by definition.

I think Ukraine is currently moving toward democracy as evidenced by the election of Zelensky - who IMO - opposes corruption in their system and wants to promote democracy in their future, even more so now that Putin invaded them.

Accordingly, I reject the idea we should ignore the invasion of Ukraine on the basis of their past corruption.

I agree with the notion that doing business with the likes of Saudi Arabia only demonstrates our own corruption.  We - and other democratic nations - need to free ourselves from the need for their petroleum - just like we are trying to do with Russia - and isolate them like a cancer as long as they remain an authoritarian regime. 

The same is true for China. (Although one could argue that doing business with them may push them more to capitalistic economy.  Capitalism inherently works better in a democratic system, IMO.)   

The problem is - like Saudi Arabia - they are still authoritarian and thus represent a future security threat and doing business with them only increases their power, military and otherwise.  This is a dilemma.

The primary tension of this century will be between democracy and authoritarianism,  more specifically, between the U.S. and China, who is a peer nation economically speaking.

Bottom line, the more we can cultivate and support democracy (as allies) in the world the better off we - and the rest of the world - will be. 

Therefore, supporting Ukraine in defeating Putin is in our interest.

Edited July 4, 2022 by homersapien

[GunsmithAU 383]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

I think the U.S. main priority geopolitically should be to promote democracy globally.

It won't guarantee peace, but history suggests the more democratic other countries are, the less likely they will wage war.  History also demonstrates just the opposite regarding authoritarian governments, who rely on a "supreme leader" by definition.

I think Ukraine are currently moving toward democracy as evidenced by the election of Zelensky - who IMO - opposes corruption in their system and wants to promote democracy in their future, even more so now that Putin invaded them.

Accordingly, I reject the idea we should ignore the invasion of Ukraine on the basis of their past corruption.

I agree with the notion that doing business with the likes of Saudi Arabia only demonstrates our own corruption.  We - and other democratic nations - need to free ourselves from the need for their petroleum - just like we are trying to do with Russia - and isolate them like a cancer as long as they remain an authoritarian regime. 

The same is true for China. (Although one could argue that doing business with them may push them more to capitalistic economy.  Capitalism inherently works better in a democratic system, IMO.)   

The problem is - like Saudi Arabia - they are still authoritarian and thus represent a future security threat and doing business with them only increases their power, military and otherwise.  This is a dilemma.

The primary tension of this century will be between democracy and authoritarianism,  more specifically, between the U.S. and China, who is a peer nation economically speaking.

Bottom line, the more we can cultivate and support democracy (as allies) in the world the better off we - and the rest of the world - will be. 

Therefore, supporting Ukraine in defeating Putin's is in our interest.

Zekensky was specifically mentioned in the Panama papers related to corruption and US Congress as well. He isn't a good democratic guy. 

 

The US idea of supporting and promoting democracy has done nothing to help the world though. South America is still in shambles from the US support of the narco states which opposed communism, the middle east is worse off, Vietnam was a waste if lives and money, the list goes on. Foreign nations using military and enomomic might to force democracy has failed.

On 4/23/2022 at 12:59 PM, AU9377 said:

I understand the German economic struggles after WWII.  Your points are valid regarding what led to the rise in German nationalism and the ultimate opening for fascists like Hitler.  Even so, that doesn't excuse any government's actions when they decide to exterminate people as though they were diseased cattle.

I would argue that if Germany could afford to build the military machine it built in preparation to start another world war, they were capable of helping their citizens as well.  Saudi Arabia is a problem, as are their actions in Yemen.  The problem is that that entire area of the world is a problem and we literally have to pick our poision in order to contain the problem.  The only real answer is to strip them of their bargaining power and that means becoming less reliant on their one resource, crude oil.

The Ukrainians and Saudis are very different. Our motivations are also very different.

Hitler rebuilt Germany because he ignored the requirements of the Vienna convention and gave the German people something to believe in. German citizens were very well off even into the mid phases of the war. 

 

On 4/23/2022 at 11:26 AM, TexasTiger said:

Is there any line for you? If Putin attacks a NATO country? Were we wrong to enter WWII in your mind? 

The US tax payer should not be subsidizing the defense of foreign lands. Period. But not should NATO exist in the world today it is a relic from the cold war. Considering many predicted this invasion back in 2014 based off the continued expansion of NATO into the Russian sphere of influence and in  defiance of agreements to not expand nato. Not to mention that the current government of Ukraine only exists because the west fomented a successful revolution. 

 

 

 

 

 

The US has not given Ukraine over 1/3rd of it's GDP in weapons. The US government called out Ukraine as an extreme corrupt state, including zekensky earlier this year prior to invasion. Ukraine existence in Nato would only exists as a drain on the other member states and to bully Russia. Same with it's entrance in the EU. 

 

The European's decisions to be energy dependant on Russia is not the US problem. 

[TexasTiger 12,796]

6 minutes ago, GunsmithAU said:

Zekensky was specifically mentioned in the Panama papers related to corruption and US Congress as well. He isn't a good democratic guy. 

 

The US idea of supporting and promoting democracy has done nothing to help the world though. South America is still in shambles from the US support of the narco states which opposed communism, the middle east is worse off, Vietnam was a waste if lives and money, the list goes on. Foreign nations using military and enomomic might to force democracy has failed.

Hitler rebuilt Germany because he ignored the requirements of the Vienna convention and gave the German people something to believe in. German citizens were very well off even into the mid phases of the war. 

 

The US tax payer should not be subsidizing the defense of foreign lands. Period. But not should NATO exist in the world today it is a relic from the cold war. Considering many predicted this invasion back in 2014 based off the continued expansion of NATO into the Russian sphere of influence and in  defiance of agreements to not expand nato. Not to mention that the current government of Ukraine only exists because the west fomented a successful revolution. 

 

 

 

 

 

The US has not given Ukraine over 1/3rd of it's GDP in weapons. The US government called out Ukraine as an extreme corrupt state, including zekensky earlier this year prior to invasion. Ukraine existence in Nato would only exists as a drain on the other member states and to bully Russia. Same with it's entrance in the EU. 

 

The European's decisions to be energy dependant on Russia is not the US problem. 

Would you have supported the US entering WWII against Hitler?

[AU9377 4,910]

22 minutes ago, GunsmithAU said:

Zekensky was specifically mentioned in the Panama papers related to corruption and US Congress as well. He isn't a good democratic guy. 

 

The US idea of supporting and promoting democracy has done nothing to help the world though. South America is still in shambles from the US support of the narco states which opposed communism, the middle east is worse off, Vietnam was a waste if lives and money, the list goes on. Foreign nations using military and enomomic might to force democracy has failed.

Hitler rebuilt Germany because he ignored the requirements of the Vienna convention and gave the German people something to believe in. German citizens were very well off even into the mid phases of the war. 

 

The US tax payer should not be subsidizing the defense of foreign lands. Period. But not should NATO exist in the world today it is a relic from the cold war. Considering many predicted this invasion back in 2014 based off the continued expansion of NATO into the Russian sphere of influence and in  defiance of agreements to not expand nato. Not to mention that the current government of Ukraine only exists because the west fomented a successful revolution. 

 

 

 

 

 

The US has not given Ukraine over 1/3rd of it's GDP in weapons. The US government called out Ukraine as an extreme corrupt state, including zekensky earlier this year prior to invasion. Ukraine existence in Nato would only exists as a drain on the other member states and to bully Russia. Same with it's entrance in the EU. 

 

The European's decisions to be energy dependant on Russia is not the US problem. 

At the end of the day, one country has decided that they want to control another country for no legitimate reason.  One country has embarked upon destroying the lives of innocent people.  Russia claims that they are removing the Nazis running Ukraine.  That is preposterous. This type of aggression is why NATO exists.

[homersapien 11,347]

13 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

Zekensky was specifically mentioned in the Panama papers related to corruption and US Congress as well. He isn't a good democratic guy.

 

One could say the exact same thing about our last president. He isn't a "good democratic guy" either.

Zelensky has demonstrated a patriotism by not leaving his country in a crisis.  If he was as corrupt as you suggest, he would have been long gone.

Bottom line, we can support a country with democratic aspirations who wants closer ties to the EU, or we can simply stand by while Putin tries re-create Soviet Russia.

 

[homersapien 11,347]

14 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

The US tax payer should not be subsidizing the defense of foreign lands. Period. But not should NATO exist in the world today it is a relic from the cold war. Considering many predicted this invasion back in 2014 based off the continued expansion of NATO into the Russian sphere of influence and in  defiance of agreements to not expand nato. Not to mention that the current government of Ukraine only exists because the west fomented a successful revolution.

There is only one earth and we are a part of it. The idea that the United States can exist outside of every other country in the world is very naive.

If the last century didn't teach you that, I don't know what else to say, except you need to hit the history section at your library.

Edited April 29, 2022 by homersapien

[jj3jordan 2,039]

21 hours ago, homersapien said:

One could say the exact same thing about our last president. He isn't a "good democratic guy" either.

Zelensky has demonstrated a patriotism by not leaving his country in a crisis.  If he was as corrupt as you suggest, he would have been long gone.

Bottom line, we can support a country with democratic aspirations who wants closer ties to the EU, or we can simply stand by while Putin tries re-create Soviet Russia.

 

No one could not say that about our last president. You could about the democrat party though, and the antics of Biden and his mandates. 

[aubiefifty 16,660]

23 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

No one could not say that about our last president. You could about the democrat party though, and the antics of Biden and his mandates. 

oh bull. how many arrests has bidens folks had?some for treason. lying. stealing. there is nothing democratic about a man who could care less about the law and democracy. i give you the election and trying to steal it away from someone who really won because he fancies himself a dictator. and before yall start with hillary she has nothing to do with biden. but then you are the brainiac that thinks the election was stolen after every single challenge in court which was close to fifty was thrown out with no merit. so now you are taking the side of a known liar and crook over good hearted and patriotic americans. but i expect no less.

[DKW 86 7,410]

Sometimes, doing the right thing, seems crazy. But doing the right thing may even cost you something at first. But always, over time, doing trhe right thing is always honorable and always proves out. Helping Ukraine so far has shown us that the Russians are nowhere near militarily capable as we were lead to believe. 

If NATO gets into a war with the Russians I am now okay with that. They are a Second Tier Bully and maybe this is the moment that they find that they are not what we think they were, also not what they assumed. 

The ferocity of war with Ukraine has shown that they are no longer a legitimate force in the world. Taking them down may also stop the real war with China.

Edited May 2, 2022 by DKW 86

[jj3jordan 2,039]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

oh bull. how many arrests has bidens folks had?some for treason. lying. stealing. there is nothing democratic about a man who could care less about the law and democracy. i give you the election and trying to steal it away from someone who really won because he fancies himself a dictator. and before yall start with hillary she has nothing to do with biden. but then you are the brainiac that thinks the election was stolen after every single challenge in court which was close to fifty was thrown out with no merit. so now you are taking the side of a known liar and crook over good hearted and patriotic americans. but i expect no less.

You must not know what a dictator is.  Dictators don’t allow the process to play out where they lose. Trump tried to implement his agenda thru the Congress but was only partially successful. Like Obama who had the same problem, he used some executive orders to implement what he could. In my opinion whomever was president under Covid was going to lose just because of bad timing. Trump withstood unprecedented attacks from democrats that were absolutely made up regarding Russia and Ukraine  while the media protected Biden and democrats the whole time. He lost a squeaker and was rightfully suspicious of the way the vote counting happened. Most of the challenges were dismissed for standing not merits. Clearly the easy way out for judges to avoid a minefield. Trump was a CEO. CEOs do have authoritarian personalities. They expect things to get done when they make a decision. Trump is a leader who for whatever reason is able to get people to follow him. Biden has zero leadership skills and is a few levels below milquetoast on the scale.  Trump fought for what he thought was taken from him in all the legal manners he could. They did not work so he is not president. That does not make him a dictator. 

[TexasTiger 12,796]

52 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

You must not know what a dictator is.  Dictators don’t allow the process to play out where they lose. Trump tried to implement his agenda thru the Congress but was only partially successful. Like Obama who had the same problem, he used some executive orders to implement what he could. In my opinion whomever was president under Covid was going to lose just because of bad timing. Trump withstood unprecedented attacks from democrats that were absolutely made up regarding Russia and Ukraine  while the media protected Biden and democrats the whole time. He lost a squeaker and was rightfully suspicious of the way the vote counting happened. Most of the challenges were dismissed for standing not merits. Clearly the easy way out for judges to avoid a minefield. Trump was a CEO. CEOs do have authoritarian personalities. They expect things to get done when they make a decision. Trump is a leader who for whatever reason is able to get people to follow him. Biden has zero leadership skills and is a few levels below milquetoast on the scale.  Trump fought for what he thought was taken from him in all the legal manners he could. They did not work so he is not president. That does not make him a dictator. 

There were no merits. How many lawsuits? No merits. Republican led audits? No findings. No merits. Pure fantasy. Utter delusion. And flat out lies.

Trump is doing what Putin did early in his first tenure— lay the groundwork to weaken the democratic guardrails so he could become the dictator he is now.

[aubiefifty 16,660]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

You must not know what a dictator is.  Dictators don’t allow the process to play out where they lose. Trump tried to implement his agenda thru the Congress but was only partially successful. Like Obama who had the same problem, he used some executive orders to implement what he could. In my opinion whomever was president under Covid was going to lose just because of bad timing. Trump withstood unprecedented attacks from democrats that were absolutely made up regarding Russia and Ukraine  while the media protected Biden and democrats the whole time. He lost a squeaker and was rightfully suspicious of the way the vote counting happened. Most of the challenges were dismissed for standing not merits. Clearly the easy way out for judges to avoid a minefield. Trump was a CEO. CEOs do have authoritarian personalities. They expect things to get done when they make a decision. Trump is a leader who for whatever reason is able to get people to follow him. Biden has zero leadership skills and is a few levels below milquetoast on the scale.  Trump fought for what he thought was taken from him in all the legal manners he could. They did not work so he is not president. That does not make him a dictator. 

you should be a comedian.......you have skillz.......rolls eyes. for the record i honestly think you are trolling which is a nono on this political board............

[aubiefifty 16,660]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

You must not know what a dictator is.  Dictators don’t allow the process to play out where they lose. Trump tried to implement his agenda thru the Congress but was only partially successful. Like Obama who had the same problem, he used some executive orders to implement what he could. In my opinion whomever was president under Covid was going to lose just because of bad timing. Trump withstood unprecedented attacks from democrats that were absolutely made up regarding Russia and Ukraine  while the media protected Biden and democrats the whole time. He lost a squeaker and was rightfully suspicious of the way the vote counting happened. Most of the challenges were dismissed for standing not merits. Clearly the easy way out for judges to avoid a minefield. Trump was a CEO. CEOs do have authoritarian personalities. They expect things to get done when they make a decision. Trump is a leader who for whatever reason is able to get people to follow him. Biden has zero leadership skills and is a few levels below milquetoast on the scale.  Trump fought for what he thought was taken from him in all the legal manners he could. They did not work so he is not president. That does not make him a dictator. 

dude you have no shame. really go read some of the texts. when you get done go dig in his crapper for those top secret messages he flushed. i would not be shocked if you told me how the white house ran out of paper.................

[jj3jordan 2,039]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

dude you have no shame. really go read some of the texts. when you get done go dig in his crapper for those top secret messages he flushed. i would not be shocked if you told me how the white house ran out of paper.................

You are a little off topic. Did you have a comment concerning whether or not Trump acts like a dictator? Instead you attack me personally and want me to inspect Trumps crapper. It seems to me fiddy that you are the troll. I addressed the topic directly. You have failed miserably to do so in your past two posts. Stay off the weed long enough to have a coherent thought.

[jj3jordan 2,039]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

There were no merits. How many lawsuits? No merits. Republican led audits? No findings. No merits. Pure fantasy. Utter delusion. And flat out lies.

Trump is doing what Putin did early in his first tenure— lay the groundwork to weaken the democratic guardrails so he could become the dictator he is now.

So Trump is plotting later on to seize power like Putin. Putin was a longtime KGB operative with a long history of party politburo activity. Wow are you fantasizing. So is this groundwork laid now? Is the transformation of the US from constitutional republic to communist dictatorship all set and ready to go? You are completely out of your mind.

[TexasTiger 12,796]

39 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

So Trump is plotting later on to seize power like Putin. Putin was a longtime KGB operative with a long history of party politburo activity. Wow are you fantasizing. So is this groundwork laid now? Is the transformation of the US from constitutional republic to communist dictatorship all set and ready to go? You are completely out of your mind.

Of course, you distort what I said, but when what’s outlined in this article happens, you’ll cheer it on. It may be another Republican that runs with it. DeSantis & Cruz would do it in a heartbeat.

https://www.businessinsider.com/judge-luttig-republican-dry-run-overturn-2020-election-2024-trump-2022-4?amp