Better Fit At Coordinator On Both Sides

[au302 2,669]

7 hours ago, cole256 said:

There's literally no way to know if any of that is true.

Reality is most complaining comes from people who just say if you don't blitz all the time you aren't aggressive when so much more goes into it.

Also for whatever reason everybody forgot it war our first year in a 3-4 and you had quite a few guys playing roles they haven't ever played. 

As usual the defense got better the more experience they got. I have no doubt if Mason had stayed and a few key guys who left had stayed as well we would have had one of the best defenses in the SEC this year. 

It's just the way it is though this year the people you like the coordinators will give credit for good stuff and place blame elsewhere for bad stuff and vice versa

I've NEVER seen a successful organization filled with yes men. Most times, especially in a highly competitive setting you want to surround yourself with people that question and challenge. Getting rid of alphas and replacing with betas is literally a beta move imo

My question is what would you have done if you were Derek Mason in the PSU and MSU games? We were sending 3 and getting slowly picked apart by Clifford and Rogers. I understand your assertion that if we blitzed we risk getting burned, especially against Rogers and the air raid.

I guess my thought during the time was that it was worth changing it up because what we were doing was getting us slowly picked apart every drive. We may have gotten burned, but maybe we force a strip sack or a pick and change the momentum of one of those games. It was a risk that I thought during the actual game was worth taking to break the cycle and breath some life into the team, but that was just me 

Edited April 30, 2022 by au302

[Rednilla 5,383]

9 hours ago, cole256 said:

There's literally no way to know if any of that is true.

Reality is most complaining comes from people who just say if you don't blitz all the time you aren't aggressive when so much more goes into it.

Also for whatever reason everybody forgot it war our first year in a 3-4 and you had quite a few guys playing roles they haven't ever played. 

As usual the defense got better the more experience they got. I have no doubt if Mason had stayed and a few key guys who left had stayed as well we would have had one of the best defenses in the SEC this year. 

It's just the way it is though this year the people you like the coordinators will give credit for good stuff and place blame elsewhere for bad stuff and vice versa

I've NEVER seen a successful organization filled with yes men. Most times, especially in a highly competitive setting you want to surround yourself with people that question and challenge. Getting rid of alphas and replacing with betas is literally a beta move imo

And what makes you think they are nothing more than "yes men?" Have you already made up your mind about Harsin based upon one year? Or is it genuinely just because he has his Boise boys back as his top lieutenants, and you don't trust that they're good enough for the SEC?

[woodford 3,655]

On 4/28/2022 at 3:24 PM, McLoofus said:

Thank you for stopping the insanity. Especially by pointing out the bowl streak. 

Like you said, the OL will be ok. They won't be good. But they'll be ok. And who knows, maybe one of these QBs will make them look better instead of worse by actually getting rid of the ball and maybe even doing so accurately from time to time. 

The “insanity” lol ok 

[Viper 3,129]

6 hours ago, Rednilla said:

And what makes you think they are nothing more than "yes men?" Have you already made up your mind about Harsin based upon one year? Or is it genuinely just because he has his Boise boys back as his top lieutenants, and you don't trust that they're good enough for the SEC?

D. All of the above

[Rednilla 5,383]

1 hour ago, Viper said:

D. All of the above

That would have been the third choice, so obviously you didn't understand that I was asking a question. The first sentence was the asking of *why* you think they are "yes men." Do you have a reason for believing that, or is it just that they came from Boise? Seems rather idiotic to think that simply because people work well together, they must be "yes men," unless you have some evidence to support your claim.

[cole256 17,042]

13 hours ago, au302 said:

My question is what would you have done if you were Derek Mason in the PSU and MSU games? We were sending 3 and getting slowly picked apart by Clifford and Rogers. I understand your assertion that if we blitzed we risk getting burned, especially against Rogers and the air raid.

I guess my thought during the time was that it was worth changing it up because what we were doing was getting us slowly picked apart every drive. We may have gotten burned, but maybe we force a strip sack or a pick and change the momentum of one of those games. It was a risk that I thought during the actual game was worth taking to break the cycle and breath some life into the team, but that was just me 

After watching a tight end with regular athleticism kill my safeties the LAST thing you do is send more and leave him one on one. Especially if you go back and look you'll see the big plays actually came on blitzes.

It's not video games, it's so much more to think about. Especially when you are low on linebackers and d line. And nobody even mentions or even think about who is this magical pass rusher that's even going to come in off the bench?

That's what's hilarious as well. We don't even care that we don't have good pass rushers available....just rush anybody I guess. Send the long snapper in and let him rush. 

And the way way you talk you make it seem as we literally didn't blitz at all. We did. And we got burned bad. Both psu and miss st

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by cole256

[cole256 17,042]

10 hours ago, Rednilla said:

And what makes you think they are nothing more than "yes men?" Have you already made up your mind about Harsin based upon one year? Or is it genuinely just because he has his Boise boys back as his top lieutenants, and you don't trust that they're good enough for the SEC?

I can answer that but first what makes you think ANY of the stuff you said is true?

[Rednilla 5,383]

24 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I can answer that but first what makes you think ANY of the stuff you said is true?

The fact that I have a friend who gets his information directly from the staff of Bryan Harsin. It might be hype, but it's not made up off the top of my head.

The basis of the information for my OP came from a screenshot of the staff member's comments. I even had my friend show that staff member the text I wrote to ensure I didn't include anything he didn't want repeated. I dropped a couple of the other tidbits in the Eagle's Nest for donors to enjoy.

[Hank2020 3,196]

2 hours ago, Rednilla said:

The fact that I have a friend who gets his information directly from the staff of Bryan Harsin. It might be hype, but it's not made up off the top of my head.

The basis of the information for my OP came from a screenshot of the staff member's comments. I even had my friend show that staff member the text I wrote to ensure I didn't include anything he didn't want repeated. I dropped a couple of the other tidbits in the Eagle's Nest for donors to enjoy.

I understood you to say earlier that you had no inside information but seems like that’s what you are using to support what you are saying above. Not that I disagree with anything you supposed, just thought it was just that. A supposition.

[Rednilla 5,383]

1 hour ago, Hank2020 said:

I understood you to say earlier that you had no inside information but seems like that’s what you are using to support what you are saying above. Not that I disagree with anything you supposed, just thought it was just that. A supposition.

When I said I had no inside information, I was referring specifically to that post, as opposed to the OP, which *was* inside information. Sorry I wasn't more clear about that.

[metafour 4,967]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:51 AM, Rednilla said:

And what makes you think they are nothing more than "yes men?" Have you already made up your mind about Harsin based upon one year? Or is it genuinely just because he has his Boise boys back as his top lieutenants, and you don't trust that they're good enough for the SEC?

Regardless of whether or not they are "yes men", the bigger concern to me is that Harsin has been here one year and he's already shown full blast the entire "he's hard to work with" problem that Boise State people were already critical about while he was there. The issue here is that this drastically reduces the potential talent-pool of coaches that Auburn can field, so what happens when one of these guys leaves?

To me, the ability for a head coach to be flexible and mesh with others is one of the most underrated qualities there is. Harsin seems to be entirely a "I'm the hammer" type personality, which sounds nice from a "toughness" perspective, but it's actually a hindrance when it's time to build an elite staff. These guys might be amazing coaches, but you're already seeing a huge lag and learning curve where guys like Schmedding are completely useless on the recruiting trail - so let's pretend that he's so amazing as a DC that he lands a HC job at Wyoming or some crap; now what? We're going to find someone else from outside the region that Harsin trusts, who is then also going to need to learn how the recruit here?

[eaglenest 332]

19 hours ago, metafour said:

Regardless of whether or not they are "yes men", the bigger concern to me is that Harsin has been here one year and he's already shown full blast the entire "he's hard to work with" problem that Boise State people were already critical about while he was there. The issue here is that this drastically reduces the potential talent-pool of coaches that Auburn can field, so what happens when one of these guys leaves?

To me, the ability for a head coach to be flexible and mesh with others is one of the most underrated qualities there is. Harsin seems to be entirely a "I'm the hammer" type personality, which sounds nice from a "toughness" perspective, but it's actually a hindrance when it's time to build an elite staff. These guys might be amazing coaches, but you're already seeing a huge lag and learning curve where guys like Schmedding are completely useless on the recruiting trail - so let's pretend that he's so amazing as a DC that he lands a HC job at Wyoming or some crap; now what? We're going to find someone else from outside the region that Harsin trusts, who is then also going to need to learn how the recruit here?

The stuff I come here to read is mind blowing, so, how would you feel about Saban as Auburn head coach? do you think he is going to be any different than he's always been? getting coaches to come here because of Harsin personality or attitude is just asinine, JABA is a real thing here and it hurts Auburn more then you think, Venables told you Napier told you maybe just maybe Tont Elliott told you how bad the INNER WORKING BEHIND THE SCENES are here, that's why no one would want to come here and we got fans like you that buy into what those people do.

[abw0004 10,109]

Trying to patiently wait for metafour's response to this one.  ⬆️  Should be a post for the ages.  

[cole256 17,042]

On 4/30/2022 at 1:53 PM, Rednilla said:

The fact that I have a friend who gets his information directly from the staff of Bryan Harsin. It might be hype, but it's not made up off the top of my head.

The basis of the information for my OP came from a screenshot of the staff member's comments. I even had my friend show that staff member the text I wrote to ensure I didn't include anything he didn't want repeated. I dropped a couple of the other tidbits in the Eagle's Nest for donors to enjoy.

Ah ok. I have had inside info the last I'd say 5 years if not longer myself.....that's why I have had the opinions I have.

As far as the yes men thing I was talking in general responding to the things you wrote in your first post as far as everybody just following Harsin 's lead now. Don't know about offense but we definitely didn't get better on the defensive side of coaching

[cole256 17,042]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:52 AM, McLoofus said:

Bingo.

Can't ride with you on that. Muschamp inherited one of the worst defenses in the league and handed it off to Steele in great shape. Muschamp actually changed the culture behind the scenes- in the locker room, sure, but in the boardroom as well. And his players loved that stuff on the sidelines, except maybe the back to back 15 yarders in that one game. But even then they knew he was fighting for them. He was far from perfect but Muschamp's 2015 shift was one for the ages.

Mason inherited a pretty good defense with a lot of talent and left us a pretty good defense with a lot of talent. The scheme change was a big lift and he did some great recruiting work for us, but it wasn't nearly the transformative season that Muschamp gave us. 

I agree and disagree. I agree with everything you said about muschamp. I don't think our defense was very talented at all. I think what Mason did with that defense was amazing. I think people have a misconception on thinking we were better than we really were on defense. I think people are going to see this year

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 hours ago, cole256 said:

I agree and disagree. I agree with everything you said about muschamp. I don't think our defense was very talented at all. I think what Mason did with that defense was amazing. I think people have a misconception on thinking we were better than we really were on defense. I think people are going to see this year

That's fair. The fact that we have so many questions and depth concerns + only one guy drafted = inexperienced at best, and untalented and inexperienced at worst. 

[Rednilla 5,383]

2 hours ago, cole256 said:

As far as the yes men thing I was talking in general responding to the things you wrote in your first post as far as everybody just following Harsin 's lead now. 

Being a compatible coaching personality doesn't mean you're a yes man.

Harsin is the leader. What happens when teams don't follow their leader?

[AuburnNTexas 7,134]

There is some legitimacy to both Cole and Rednilla's position on Blitzing. At the beginning of the year we had a totally new Defense with players who did not know the system so keeping it simple protected us from big plays so I understand using limited blitzing. Penn State game was early in the year and while I was personally begging for more blitzing it was a close game and if we gave away an easy score it gets out of hand quickly.  So Mason was probably doing the best under the circumstances. Harsin as the head coach could have over-written Mason and told him to blitz more but he didn't so he understood same thing Mason did.

By the MSU game the players had been in the system for a while and up till just before the end of 1st half we had controlled their offense and we were moving the ball and scoring, so no need to Blitz. Second half was different Offense became inept and it was 3 and out over and over while MSU was carving us up marching down field over and over and scoring. We needed something to give life to the team a few Blitz's sure couldn't have hurt since they were scoring quickly anyway. Also the defense was gassed why didn't Mason put in some younger players like Hunter and Robinson even if MSU scored with them in the starters would have gotten a rest. Mason throughout his career unlike Garner has been somewhat of a fan of ironman football with out a lot of subbing that hurts when trying to build depth and hurts even more when the O is doing 3 and out over and over.

In the bama game we were much more aggressive and got away with it. We also had nothing to lose since we were such underdogs.What that game proved is by end of year we were able to blitz and get away with it.

 

Last years defense had 96 TFL and 36 sacks.  Those are actually pretty good numbers most of that came from D-line.

Hall 12.5 TFL and 9 sacks

Leota 10 TFL and 7 Sacks

Smoke 9 TFL and 2 Sacks

Wooden 8.6 TFLAND 5 Sacs

McClain 8 TFL and 2 Sacs

Moultry  7.5 TFL 4 Sacs

We actually had really good production from our Edge rushers and Wooden playing Inside.  A lot of the TFL's and SAC's came on Blitzes that forced the player into our D-Line. With basically the same system this year with more experience in D-Line and two new Nose Guards in James and Mba our D-Line should be better than last year and while I would like one more edge rusher Brooks should be able to match Moultry's numbers and I would expect Hall, Leota and Wooden to all be better.  At LB's one of our best LB's Pappoe's was out most of the season so having him back will help but McClain, and Wooten were really good but we have talented bodies to replace them who have had a year to learn this system. I expect an initial drop-off but should be solid there. No easy replacement of McCreary but we have some talent and again we have a lot of talent at CB. Losing Smoke will be both good and bad run support, leadership, experience is a loss but he was often one of the players beaten when we blitzed as he did not always read receivers that well and didn't have elite speed. We don't have enough safeties but we have more speed then last year. Having two easy games before Penn State should help this teams Defense.  Then Penn State will be a good first gauge of what we have on Defense. The key to this team this year will be how long the defense is on the field because of O having to many 3 and out's. If we have a QB who can hit the quick passes to RB's, TE's on 1st and 2nd down to keep defenses honest to sustain drives that way that will open up the running game and we can be very solid this year. If QB is not good on those passes it will be a long year as D will play well for 2 or 3 quarters then run out of gas, 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by AuburnNTexas

[AuburnNTexas 7,134]

41 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

That's fair. The fact that we have so many questions and depth concerns + only one guy drafted = inexperienced at best, and untalented and inexperienced at worst. 

If Hall and Wooden had come out this year they would have been drafted.  McClain and Wooten produced very well at College level but their size did not project well at pro level but still were signed as undrafted Free Agents, their production matched LB's in the SEC who were drafted. I agree we are behind talent wise but we do have some legitimate Defensive talent this year. It was lack of consistency in the O that kept us from having a better season last year and that started with the O-Line being less than stellar and to an extent with Bo Nix. Bo carried us in some games but missed easy throws enough times to stall out drives in other games part of the missed throws was because O-line wasn't stellar and he was a little antsy and some was just on Bo not setting his feet and making a good throw.  My point is I think our Defense had and still has a good bit of talent as I expect 2 or 3 from this years defense to get drafted.

[Rednilla 5,383]

36 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

There is some legitimacy to both Cole and Rednilla's position on Blitzing. At the beginning of the year we had a totally new Defense with players who did not know the system so keeping it simple protected us from big plays so I understand using limited blitzing. Penn State game was early in the year and while I was personally begging for more blitzing it was a close game and if we gave away an easy score it gets out of hand quickly.  So Mason was probably doing the best under the circumstances. Harsin as the head coach could have over-written Mason and told him to blitz more but he didn't so he understood same thing Mason did.

By the MSU game the players had been in the system for a while and up till just before the end of 1st half we had controlled their offense and we were moving the ball and scoring, so no need to Blitz. Second half was different Offense became inept and it was 3 and out over and over while MSU was carving us up marching down field over and over and scoring. We needed something to give life to the team a few Blitz's sure couldn't have hurt since they were scoring quickly anyway. Also the defense was gassed why didn't Mason put in some younger players like Hunter and Robinson even if MSU scored with them in the starters would have gotten a rest. Mason throughout his career unlike Garner has been somewhat of a fan of ironman football with out a lot of subbing that hurts when trying to build depth and hurts even more when the O is doing 3 and out over and over.

In the bama game we were much more aggressive and got away with it. We also had nothing to lose since we were such underdogs.What that game proved is by end of year we were able to blitz and get away with it.

 

Last years defense had 96 TFL and 36 sacks.  Those are actually pretty good numbers most of that came from D-line.

Hall 12.5 TFL and 9 sacks

Leota 10 TFL and 7 Sacks

Smoke 9 TFL and 2 Sacks

Wooden 8.6 TFLAND 5 Sacs

McClain 8 TFL and 2 Sacs

Moultry  7.5 TFL 4 Sacs

We actually had really good production from our Edge rushers and Wooden playing Inside.  A lot of the TFL's and SAC's came on Blitzes that forced the player into our D-Line. With basically the same system this year with more experience in D-Line and two new Nose Guards in James and Mba our D-Line should be better than last year and while I would like one more edge rusher Brooks should be able to match Moultry's numbers and I would expect Hall, Leota and Wooden to all be better.  At LB's one of our best LB's Pappoe's was out most of the season so having him back will help but McClain, and Wooten were really good but we have talented bodies to replace them who have had a year to learn this system. I expect an initial drop-off but should be solid there. No easy replacement of McCreary but we have some talent and again we have a lot of talent at CB. Losing Smoke will be both good and bad run support, leadership, experience is a loss but he was often one of the players beaten when we blitzed as he did not always read receivers that well and didn't have elite speed. We don't have enough safeties but we have more speed then last year. Having two easy games before Penn State should help this teams Defense.  Then Penn State will be a good first gauge of what we have on Defense. The key to this team this year will be how long the defense is on the field because of O having to many 3 and out's. If we have a QB who can hit the quick passes to RB's, TE's on 1st and 2nd down to keep defenses honest to sustain drives that way that will open up the running game and we can be very solid this year. If QB is not good on those passes it will be a long year as D will play well for 2 or 3 quarters then run out of gas, 

 

Note that I don't believe I've said anything about blitzing. I'm talking about autonomy under a single leader.

[cole256 17,042]

1 hour ago, Rednilla said:

Being a compatible coaching personality doesn't mean you're a yes man.

Harsin is the leader. What happens when teams don't follow their leader?

Then that means in the same breath when you have a different opinion doesn't mean that a guy who agrees with everything is better for a team as well. It doesn't mean it makes a team more compatible. Like I said a great team is going to have arguments and friction.

And we saw what happens when the leader does something that causes people to not follow. We lost a bunch of talent for that. 

[Win4AU 4,052]

Seemed like Auburn did a pretty good job getting to Rogers early in the Miss State game.  Seems like whatever Auburn was doing early should have kept happening.  Offense didn’t help any either

[Didba 5,256]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:52 AM, McLoofus said:

Bingo.

Can't ride with you on that. Muschamp inherited one of the worst defenses in the league and handed it off to Steele in great shape. Muschamp actually changed the culture behind the scenes- in the locker room, sure, but in the boardroom as well. And his players loved that stuff on the sidelines, except maybe the back to back 15 yarders in that one game. But even then they knew he was fighting for them. He was far from perfect but Muschamp's 2015 shift was one for the ages.

Mason inherited a pretty good defense with a lot of talent and left us a pretty good defense with a lot of talent. The scheme change was a big lift and he did some great recruiting work for us, but it wasn't nearly the transformative season that Muschamp gave us. 

This is a great point that I hadn't considered. The state the defense was in when both DCs took over.  I agree with you.

[Didba 5,256]

On 4/29/2022 at 1:04 PM, Win4AU said:

The Muschamp blowup in the Iron Bowl is an all timer.  

the exact moment I was thinking of when I typed that out. 

[Didba 5,256]

On 4/29/2022 at 5:21 PM, cole256 said:

I've NEVER seen a successful organization filled with yes men. Most times, especially in a highly competitive setting you want to surround yourself with people that question and challenge. Getting rid of alphas and replacing with betas is literally a beta move imo

100% agree with you on the yes men point IE look at the last coach.  However, I don't think what Harsin is doing here with Kiesau and Schmedding fits into what you are describing with a house full of yes men.