When Southern Baptists were pro choice.... it was 1974 and the issue had yet to be hijacked.

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Just now, AUDub said:

To be fair this is basically a thread on the SBC. 

Granted.  I was just making sure since his language was vague.

[AU9377 4,914]

My point in starting the thread was to show that the issue of Abortion was not something that was championed by religious groups or thought of as a wedge issue back when Roe was first decided.  There was a purposeful effort to use the issue to motivate voters, many of which became single issue voters, and keep them supporting far right candidates regardless of the candidate's fitness for the office.

Donald Trump is the best example of this.  The man could not be a better example of everything that Jesus Christ and Christianity overall teaches people not to admire.  Yet, due to his stated willingness to place candidates on the court that would vote against Roe, he became a cult hero with most evangelical voters.  These same voters speak of the current President, who has always been a devout Catholic and a practicing Christian, as though he is some form of demon.

Billy Graham once attended political functions with Hillary Clinton and spoke about how she would make a great President one day.  When asked what he would say to his son if he had a son that told him he was gay, Graham replied "I would ask him what he wanted for dinner." 

Today, Graham's son has adopted the extremism that his father tried for so long to stay away from.  It is a very profitable enterprise.

At the very least, most religious leaders around the country attempted to stay out of matters of state.  They preached the gospel from the pulpit and allowed their congregation to decide for themselves what issues they promoted privately.  I worry that the closer some religious leaders become to acting as a wing of a political party, the closer the country will become to revoking the tax exempt status of the church.

Edited May 9, 2022 by AU9377

[CoffeeTiger 5,084]

16 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

My point in starting the thread was to show that the issue of Abortion was not something that was championed by religious groups or thought of as a wedge issue back when Roe was first decided.  There was a purposeful effort to use the issue to motivate voters, many of which became single issue voters, and keep them supporting far right candidates regardless of the candidate's fitness for the office.

Donald Trump is the best example of this.  The man could not be a better example of everything that Jesus Christ and Christianity overall teaches people not to admire.  Yet, due to his stated willingness to place candidates on the court that would vote against Roe, he became a cult hero with most evangelical voters.  These same voters speak of the current President, who has always been a devout Catholic and a practicing Christian, as though he is some form of demon.

Billy Graham once attended political functions with Hillary Clinton and spoke about how she would make a great President one day.  When asked what he would say to his son if he had a son that told him he was gay, Graham replied "I would ask him what he wanted for dinner." 

Today, Graham's son has adopted the extremism that his father tried for so long to stay away from.  It is a very profitable enterprise.

I agree with almost all of this post, except to say that for most of America's history there has been a very real dividing line between Catholics and evangelical protestants where the two groups aren't all the warm and fuzzy with each other.  

Many protestant denominations don't really view Catholicism as "real Christianity", while the Catholic Church in general views itself as the first, true Church founded by Jesus, and so any protestant Churches are heretical and people aren't true Christians till they rejoin the Catholic Church (although many Catholics will accept the idea that protestants can still be saved and go to haven). In early America Catholics were frequently targeted for mistreatment from the Reformed religious majority, and In the 1950's the KKK, which was becoming dominated by Christian and moral influences, even started to become anti-Catholic viewing the religion as the origin of wickedness. 

I say all that to say that our president being a devout Catholic probably doesn't affect many protestant evangelicals view's of him all that positively .  

[AU9377 4,914]

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I agree with almost all of this post, except to say that for most of America's history there has been a very real dividing line between Catholics and evangelical protestants where the two groups aren't all the warm and fuzzy with each other.  

Many protestant denominations don't really view Catholicism as "real Christianity", while the Catholic Church in general views itself as the first, true Church founded by Jesus, and so any protestant Churches are heretical and people aren't true Christians till they rejoin the Catholic Church (although many Catholics will accept the idea that protestants can still be saved and go to haven). In early America Catholics were frequently targeted for mistreatment from the Reformed religious majority, and In the 1950's the KKK, which was becoming dominated by Christian and moral influences, even started to become anti-Catholic viewing the religion as the origin of wickedness. 

I say all that to say that our president being a devout Catholic probably doesn't affect many protestant evangelicals view's of him all that positively .  

All that is true historically. I'm sure it is also impacted by where someone grew up and their experiences.  I grew up in a small town in the deep South.  We had more churches than we had traffic lights, and it wasn't close.  That included a Catholic Church.  In addition to that, one of the most prominent men in town was a Jewish man.  In fact, he was mayor for over 20 years at one point.  I never understood what was so difficult about respecting someone, regardless of their faith.  We never had those problems. 

Don't crown us Mayberry just yet, we had issues.  People just chose to be concerned about race more than they were about religion.  To be fair, we actually had few race issues, but dating someone of another race would get everyone's attention.  A girl from the Catholic church marrying the Baptist preacher's son wouldn't.

[jj3jordan 2,040]

4 hours ago, AU9377 said:

My point in starting the thread was to show that the issue of Abortion was not something that was championed by religious groups or thought of as a wedge issue back when Roe was first decided.  There was a purposeful effort to use the issue to motivate voters, many of which became single issue voters, and keep them supporting far right candidates regardless of the candidate's fitness for the office.

Donald Trump is the best example of this.  The man could not be a better example of everything that Jesus Christ and Christianity overall teaches people not to admire.  Yet, due to his stated willingness to place candidates on the court that would vote against Roe, he became a cult hero with most evangelical voters.  These same voters speak of the current President, who has always been a devout Catholic and a practicing Christian, as though he is some form of demon.

Billy Graham once attended political functions with Hillary Clinton and spoke about how she would make a great President one day.  When asked what he would say to his son if he had a son that told him he was gay, Graham replied "I would ask him what he wanted for dinner." 

Today, Graham's son has adopted the extremism that his father tried for so long to stay away from.  It is a very profitable enterprise.

At the very least, most religious leaders around the country attempted to stay out of matters of state.  They preached the gospel from the pulpit and allowed their congregation to decide for themselves what issues they promoted privately.  I worry that the closer some religious leaders become to acting as a wing of a political party, the closer the country will become to revoking the tax exempt status of the church.

What exactly is the tax exempt status of the church?

What tax are they exempt from paying?

Is it property tax on the building?
If so is the implication that pastors can’t say what they want to say from the pulpit or they will lose this exemption?

If so doesn’t that mean that the pastor’s silence has been bought for the amount of the tax? Could a congregation pony up the money to release the pastor to speak unfettered? Seems like somebody would just do it.

[GoAU 1,599]

7 hours ago, homersapien said:

No.  But that's exactly why Southern Baptists were formed in the first place.

So if you want to bring up the racist history (KKK) of the Democratic party - like many do - Southern Baptists are fair game on the same basis.

Actually, I didn’t bring it up.  I made the analogy that claiming the Southen Baptist Church is racist now would be akin to labeling the Democratic Party as being racist.   Both were partly rooted in racism a long time ago, but is not an accurate sentiment today. 

[alexava 6,973]

On 5/6/2022 at 3:07 PM, icanthearyou said:

Yes.  And, banning abortion will result in a much larger number of poor unwanted children.  In twenty years we will see social concerns on a new scale.

This X1000. Especially if you consider crime and welfare “social concerns.” I don’t have to know, need to know or want to know who got knocked up and terminated a pregnancy. I can’t help but know when I or my family are victims of crime. . You take away abortion, you add estimated 6~800k more kids raised in the environments that produce this. Throwing that social safety net has always just made it worse. 

[AU9377 4,914]

3 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

What exactly is the tax exempt status of the church?

What tax are they exempt from paying?

Is it property tax on the building?
If so is the implication that pastors can’t say what they want to say from the pulpit or they will lose this exemption?

If so doesn’t that mean that the pastor’s silence has been bought for the amount of the tax? Could a congregation pony up the money to release the pastor to speak unfettered? Seems like somebody would just do it.

Nobody has ever suggested in any way that a pastor can't say what he or she wants from the pulpit. For federal purposes, they are a 501(c)(3) charitable organization.

No state, federal or local taxes.  That includes property taxes, provided that the property is used for religious purposes. I don't have a problem with that.  My comment was that the church went to great lengths once upon a time to maintain its distance from politics and legislation.  Today, some go to great lengths to involve themselves in those things.

[1716AU 728]

On 5/9/2022 at 2:45 PM, CoffeeTiger said:

 

I say all that to say that our president being a devout Catholic probably doesn't affect many protestant evangelicals view's of him all that positively .  

American Evangelicalism and Catholicism are devoid of anything that resembles Jesus. Both are just religions and don't follow Him in any way whatsoever. All it is is power and fear, which is exactly what Jesus rejected. They just seem to have not gotten the memo yet.  

You can believe and claim all you want, but when you hate and piss on His command to love your neighbor as yourself, and to love your enemy to the point that they are no longer an enemy, but a brother, well, you really miss the mark. And from all I can see is that anyone who disagrees with them or stands up to them is their enemy.

Luckily, it's not up to them.  He did it, for all, and they can whine and cry all they want, but changes nothing

Edited May 11, 2022 by 1716AU

[TitanTiger 20,471]

Kirsten Powers raises the issue of religious influence over abortion views and policy.  This was a good Twitter thread in response.

 

[homersapien 11,354]

On 5/9/2022 at 9:13 PM, GoAU said:

Actually, I didn’t bring it up.  I made the analogy that claiming the Southen Baptist Church is racist now would be akin to labeling the Democratic Party as being racist.   Both were partly rooted in racism a long time ago, but is not an accurate sentiment today. 

I was using "you" in the rhetorical sense, as many people on the forum have pointed out the link between the Democratic Party and racism in the past.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by homersapien

[1716AU 728]

On 5/9/2022 at 9:13 PM, GoAU said:

Actually, I didn’t bring it up.  I made the analogy that claiming the Southen Baptist Church is racist now would be akin to labeling the Democratic Party as being racist.   Both were partly rooted in racism a long time ago, but is not an accurate sentiment today. 

just for clarification:  Are you saying that Southern Baptists are not racist today?

Because that is definitely NOT my experience. Not by a longs shot.

[GoAU 1,599]

43 minutes ago, 1716AU said:

just for clarification:  Are you saying that Southern Baptists are not racist today?

Because that is definitely NOT my experience. Not by a longs shot.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.  I am sorry that you have not had a good experience.  However, that is the danger of stereotyping the 14,525,579 members (*according to the 2020 denomination census).   I can only speak to the 5 different Southern Baptist churches I have attended in my life -  I never heard of anything remotely racist taught or preached in any church, bible study, or Sunday school class.  Of course, with a population that size it would be silly to say there isn't anyone in there that isn't racist but it certainly isn't a remotely common theme. 

[1716AU 728]

16 hours ago, GoAU said:

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.  I am sorry that you have not had a good experience.  However, that is the danger of stereotyping the 14,525,579 members (*according to the 2020 denomination census).   I can only speak to the 5 different Southern Baptist churches I have attended in my life -  I never heard of anything remotely racist taught or preached in any church, bible study, or Sunday school class.  Of course, with a population that size it would be silly to say there isn't anyone in there that isn't racist but it certainly isn't a remotely common theme. 

I grew up in it, served as a minister with several churches, and was given a professorial scholly to Southern Seminary, and I will tell you flatly:

It is a racist community.  It is also a cult. 

It has more in common with AMWAY than it does Jesus. It so resembles the Momons it is silly. It doesn't even come close to looking like Him at all. simply because they believe it is all about what they do, and not what He has done for all of us. The lack of love they project is palpable.

They are everything they have preached and warned others against for the last seventy years. They will use violence, with no hesitation, to get what they want. They are in my prayers, especially since I have so many family that are still trapped within that cult.

[GoAU 1,599]

6 hours ago, 1716AU said:

I grew up in it, served as a minister with several churches, and was given a professorial scholly to Southern Seminary, and I will tell you flatly:

It is a racist community.  It is also a cult. 

It has more in common with AMWAY than it does Jesus. It so resembles the Momons it is silly. It doesn't even come close to looking like Him at all. simply because they believe it is all about what they do, and not what He has done for all of us. The lack of love they project is palpable.

They are everything they have preached and warned others against for the last seventy years. They will use violence, with no hesitation, to get what they want. They are in my prayers, especially since I have so many family that are still trapped within that cult.

Sorry for your experience, but I maintain that it couldn’t be any more of a polar opposite than mine.  But how is what you are saying (that all 14 million Southern Baptists are racist) based on on your very limited experience and different than a racist who bases his (incorrect) opinion that all members of an ethnic group or sexual orientation are all the same?   It’s all stereotyping.  

[jj3jordan 2,040]

8 hours ago, 1716AU said:

I grew up in it, served as a minister with several churches, and was given a professorial scholly to Southern Seminary, and I will tell you flatly:

It is a racist community.  It is also a cult. 

It has more in common with AMWAY than it does Jesus. It so resembles the Momons it is silly. It doesn't even come close to looking like Him at all. simply because they believe it is all about what they do, and not what He has done for all of us. The lack of love they project is palpable.

They are everything they have preached and warned others against for the last seventy years. They will use violence, with no hesitation, to get what they want. They are in my prayers, especially since I have so many family that are still trapped within that cult.

This does not resemble any of the southern baptist churches I have attended for the last 55 years or so. Sounds like your experience was very bitter and that is sad.