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Posted (edited)

Pandora's box has been opened and it won't be easy if possible at all to regulate it. With out very clear guidelines at the beginning this was bound to become a pay to play with rich schools getting richer and taking away institutional control from the Universities.  It is sad that they think Congress might be able to help them.  The next few years will be interesting.

Edited by AuburnNTexas
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3 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Pandora's box has been opened and it won't be easy if possible at all to regulate it. With out very clear guidelines at the beginning this was bound to become a pay to play with rich schools getting richer and taking away institutional control from the Universities.  It is sad that they thing Congress might be able to help them.  The next few years will be interesting.

Congress might be able to help them.:slapfh::hanged:

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Just because the NCAA is incompetent and totally screwed up the implementation of these concepts doesn't mean that the players didn't deserve to get paid for their NIL. 

You listen to the players benefiting even from small amounts of NIL money and you can tell it has made a huge difference in their lives.  Further, I have read plenty of books written by former players, one by Rob Pate off the top of my head, that had a plethora of stories about players barely skating by at Auburn.  Stories about trying to get the most out of their allotted food money, doing weird sidejobs for money, sneaking food out of the school buffets etc. framed as just funny times as a college kid.

 

If you have a problem with how the NCAA implemented this, that is totally understandable and is a fine take to have.  However, if you truly believe that the kids don't deserve any money from their NIL while being the primary participants and driving force behind the billion dollar industry that is college football/college sports then its the wrong take, IMO.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Didba said:

Just because the NCAA is incompetent and totally screwed up the implementation of these concepts doesn't mean that the players didn't deserve to get paid for their NIL. 

You listen to the players benefiting even from small amounts of NIL money and you can tell it has made a huge difference in their lives.  Further, I have read plenty of books written by former players, one by Rob Pate off the top of my head, that had a plethora of stories about players barely skating by at Auburn.  Stories about trying to get the most out of their allotted food money, doing weird sidejobs for money, sneaking food out of the school buffets etc. framed as just funny times as a college kid.

 

The problem with this position is there are thousands of regular students who have to do this very thing. Scrape by, Without the benefit of a full ride scholarship along with access to the training table.

Edited by SumterAubie
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28 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

The problem with this position is there are thousands of regular students who have to do this very thing. Scrape by, Without the benefit of a full ride scholarship along with access to the training table.

Exactly. Today players get full medical and plenty of food even if not on scholarship or are scout team guys. 

Sadly there is no good way to do this. I personally think the p5 should break away from NCAA and start a semi pro league with real contracts and salary caps. 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

The problem with this position is there are thousands of regular students who have to do this very thing. Scrape by, Without the benefit of a full ride scholarship along with access to the training table.

First, those regular students can work part time jobs year round and full time in the summer.  Many athletes cannot work part-time jobs as per the terms of their scholarships during the season and certain parts of the off-season.  Further, per NCAA rules if their scholarships do allow them to work part-time jobs, their yearly earnings cannot exceed "$1,200 to 2,500" (Source: https://www.diverseeducation.com/students/article/15083578/student-athletes-at-work-ncaa-work-rule-will-be-difficult-to-monitor-national-collegiate-athletic-association).  As such, it is clear regular students and student athletes are not in the same boat as you imply due to the fact that regular students can work a part time job without restrictions and student athletes cannot.

Second, those regular students aren't having their NIL utilized by the schools to produce merchandising revenue for the school's coffers like the student athletes are.  NIL is a highly protected personal right.  It's why you cannot use a picture of a famous person on your box of Wheaties without sending them a % of the revenue or a lump sum for the use of their NIL.  If you do it without their permission they will either sue you for diluting their brand or send a cease and desist if the damages do not warrant a full suit.  However, student-athletes do not get this protection so the schools can use their NIL for whatever and they don't see a dime.

Further, it is important to note that you can contract away your rights to your NIL, as I discovered when I read through Harsin's contract with Auburn earlier this spring but the key there is that Harsin intentionally relinquishes those rights knowingly because he is getting a nice salary in exchange for his services to the university, his NIL is negligible compared to his salary as HC.  The difference with student athletes is that they do not contract away their NIL rights.  Under the previous rules, they are restricted from using their NIL rights for profit or they lose their status as an amateur-athlete and can no longer play collegiate sports.

This puts these kids in a catch-22. Cannot work part-time without restrictions, cannot profit off of their NIL without forfeiting their amateur status (under previous rules), many use college athletics as a way to raise themselves out of poverty so they likely have very little familial financial support, and they feel obligated to play sports at a school so they can perhaps make it to the professional level. 

While the argument could be made "well they don't have to play, or they didn't have to take a scholarship with those restrictions".  For some of them, yes, they HAVE to play a sport or take a scholarship to bring themselves out of a bad socioeconomic situation and to many of them its the only thing they know they are good enough at to warrant being paid enough to bring themselves and their families out of poverty. They really only have a "choice" in the sense that I have a "choice" when my wife asks me to take the trash out.

In summation allowing student athletes to profit off of their NIL is inherently a good thing, however how the incompetent NCAA implemented is not a good thing. The NCAA let NIL run as wild as the wild wild west and did not do its due diligence to design a system with checks and balances to keep these deals capped at reasonable levels. 

It is also important to note that many student athlete's NIL deals involve less than $1000-5000 and mostly involve signing autographs, meet & greets with fans at Alumni businesses, maybe an appearance on a local talk show, or a brief commercial appearance, etc.  Which is how it should be. 

These massive deals being thrown at the top transfers from other schools to get the transfers to their school are considered "inducements" and will bring penalties to the school, plus the NCAA should have foreseen this issue and placed a cap on NIL deals for transfers or something similar.  Unfortunately the NCAA is incompetent and didn't do the due diligence that they should have. 

And now back to the MPT, I was working on...

Edited by Didba
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9 minutes ago, GunsmithAU said:

Exactly. Today players get full medical and plenty of food even if not on scholarship or are scout team guys. 

Sadly there is no good way to do this. I personally think the p5 should break away from NCAA and start a semi pro league with real contracts and salary caps. 

Regular students do not have the same restrictions placed upon them as student athletes as such the comparison was erroneous, see my above novel for more.

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1 hour ago, Didba said:

Just because the NCAA is incompetent and totally screwed up the implementation of these concepts doesn't mean that the players didn't deserve to get paid for their NIL. 

You listen to the players benefiting even from small amounts of NIL money and you can tell it has made a huge difference in their lives.  Further, I have read plenty of books written by former players, one by Rob Pate off the top of my head, that had a plethora of stories about players barely skating by at Auburn.  Stories about trying to get the most out of their allotted food money, doing weird sidejobs for money, sneaking food out of the school buffets etc. framed as just funny times as a college kid.

 

If you have a problem with how the NCAA implemented this, that is totally understandable and is a fine take to have.  However, if you truly believe that the kids don't deserve any money from their NIL while being the primary participants and driving force behind the billion dollar industry that is college football/college sports then its the wrong take, IMO.

i am all for it but i do not want to get in bidding wars where one uni has way more money than us or even someone else and they get all the good players because they have all the money. bama and ga i am pretty sure have been doing it under the table and look where they are already.when bear was coach at tejasA&M he had a pilot fly over a kids farm where he had a poster type tube sunk into a bail of hay and kicked it out over this kids farm. bear admitted it as i read his book. i think that was in the fifties? and the kid played for bear and i believe the kid was john david crow. and yes i know they pretty much all cheat to some extent. my hope is they make it fair and in a way where most if not all of cheating goes away. i would rather pull for a kid at auburn who is ther because he loves auburn and not because he took money. i know it is probably wishful thinking but i have not given up hope.

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1 hour ago, SumterAubie said:

The problem with this position is there are thousands of regular students who have to do this very thing. Scrape by, Without the benefit of a full ride scholarship along with access to the training table.

Surprising to me that you are actually comparing the lives of “regular” students to those of scholarship players trying to make the case the regular students have it worse. It appears on the outside to be much worse for the athletes.  But probably much bigger carrot at the end for a small subgroup that make a living at it.

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17 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

i am all for it but i do not want to get in bidding wars where one uni has way more money than us or even someone else and they get all the good players because they have all the money. bama and ga i am pretty sure have been doing it under the table and look where they are already.when bear was coach at tejasA&M he had a pilot fly over a kids farm where he had a poster type tube sunk into a bail of hay and kicked it out over this kids farm. bear admitted it as i read his book. i think that was in the fifties? and the kid played for bear and i believe the kid was john david crow. and yes i know they pretty much all cheat to some extent. my hope is they make it fair and in a way where most if not all of cheating goes away. i would rather pull for a kid at auburn who is ther because he loves auburn and not because he took money. i know it is probably wishful thinking but i have not given up hope.

I think you have some of those. They are on practice squad.

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39 minutes ago, Didba said:

Regular students do not have the same restrictions placed upon them as student athletes as such the comparison was erroneous, see my above novel for more.

Everything you said was known and accounted for. The offset of a scholarship is more than the vast majority of full time working student make. Add in the food, room and board, etc and scholarship athletes are well above the total possible income they could have made as a regular student. 

I'm not talking NIL here as prior to NIL legislation, athletes had it much better financially that non athlete student. 

 

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36 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

i am all for it but i do not want to get in bidding wars where one uni has way more money than us or even someone else and they get all the good players because they have all the money. bama and ga i am pretty sure have been doing it under the table and look where they are already.when bear was coach at tejasA&M he had a pilot fly over a kids farm where he had a poster type tube sunk into a bail of hay and kicked it out over this kids farm. bear admitted it as i read his book. i think that was in the fifties? and the kid played for bear and i believe the kid was john david crow. and yes i know they pretty much all cheat to some extent. my hope is they make it fair and in a way where most if not all of cheating goes away. i would rather pull for a kid at auburn who is ther because he loves auburn and not because he took money. i know it is probably wishful thinking but i have not given up hope.

Hopefully, the NCAA introduces some restrictions that curtails any of that but like I said they are incompetent so they will still probably screw it up somehow, give me the job with twenty handpicked classmates of mine and we could do a better job than the NCAA.

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5 minutes ago, GunsmithAU said:

Everything you said was known and accounted for. The offset of a scholarship is more than the vast majority of full time working student make. Add in the food, room and board, etc and scholarship athletes are well above the total possible income they could have made as a regular student. 

I'm not talking NIL here as prior to NIL legislation, athletes had it much better financially that non athlete student. 

 

It was known and accounted for badly according to the guys living it, I have read and listened to the personal accounts of these guy on scholarship.  The info is out there.

The whole scholarship as value/consideration in exchange for the inability to use their NIL is such an old school, tired argument (almost as bad as the dudes that get mad when a batter pimps his HR with a bat flip in MLB but I digress).  Can't feed your family with scholarships, can't use scholarship money when you are 23/24/25 with a kid/wife with two years of eligibility remaining, can't get a car with scholarship money, can't send money back to your mom in poverty stricken areas so she can afford decent meals for your younger siblings, etc. And don't say that they shouldn't have families, wives, etc because that is a road you don't want to traverse.

Saying that the value of the scholarship is so great that they should be happy with just that and nothing else ignores all the real life issues that a scholarship can't provide for.  I won't even get into the fact that scholarships are only valued so much because tuition has risen to absolutely absurd levels since that will be too political for this forum.

Athletes should be able to use their NIL rights to make deals within certain caps, restrictions, limits.  Go listen to current AU athletes interviews about how much NIL has helped them not have to worry about money and just focus on playing sports and school. Baseball and football players have spoken to it.  Even, Suni Lee basically said NIL allowed her to come to Auburn otherwise she would have had to go pro right after the Olympics. 

The issue is not NIL itself. It is the NCAA incompetent implementation that is the issue here.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hank2020 said:

Surprising to me that you are actually comparing the lives of “regular” students to those of scholarship players trying to make the case the regular students have it worse. It appears on the outside to be much worse for the athletes.  But probably much bigger carrot at the end for a small subgroup that make a living at it.

It is much worse for student athletes.

 

Edit: I take that back, I really don't know, after hearing from @GunsmithAU

Edited by Didba
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1 hour ago, Didba said:

It was known and accounted for badly according to the guys living it, I have read and listened to the personal accounts of these guy on scholarship.  The info is out there.

The whole scholarship as value/consideration in exchange for the inability to use their NIL is such an old school, tired argument (almost as bad as the dudes that get mad when a batter pimps his HR with a bat flip in MLB but I digress).  Can't feed your family with scholarships, can't use scholarship money when you are 23/24/25 with a kid/wife with two years of eligibility remaining, can't get a car with scholarship money, can't send money back to your mom in poverty stricken areas so she can afford decent meals for your younger siblings, etc. And don't say that they shouldn't have families, wives, etc because that is a road you don't want to traverse.

Saying that the value of the scholarship is so great that they should be happy with just that and nothing else ignores all the real life issues that a scholarship can't provide for.  I won't even get into the fact that scholarships are only valued so much because tuition has risen to absolutely absurd levels since that will be too political for this forum.

Athletes should be able to use their NIL rights to make deals within certain caps, restrictions, limits.  Go listen to current AU athletes interviews about how much NIL has helped them not have to worry about money and just focus on playing sports and school. Baseball and football players have spoken to it.  Even, Suni Lee basically said NIL allowed her to come to Auburn otherwise she would have had to go pro right after the Olympics. 

The issue is not NIL itself. It is the NCAA incompetent implementation that is the issue here.

I'm not saying anything about NIL. I have no problem with a person getting paid while they can. I am simply disputing your claim that scholarship athletes somehow have it worse off than non athletes in similar financial situations regardless of NIL. The poor slums kids working his way through school isn't sending anything back home, buying cars, etc. either 

I'll 100% say if you cannot afford to feed your family you shouldn't have one. I'll die on that hill every day. 

Ive worked both at Auburn with football/baseball and now with a mid/upper tier G5 football program. Scholarship football athletes are not wanting for any needs, even the poorest amongst the lot. 

20, 30 years ago I'll agree scholahip athletes had it rough. That's not an issue today or in the last 10 years. You may have read accounts, but I know the athletes and see/work with them every day. 

 

We can agree that the NIL situation is a farce and has resulted in major issue though. 

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3 hours ago, Didba said:

First, those regular students can work part time jobs year round and full time in the summer.  Many athletes cannot work part-time jobs as per the terms of their scholarships during the season and certain parts of the off-season.  Further, per NCAA rules if their scholarships do allow them to work part-time jobs, their yearly earnings cannot exceed "$1,200 to 2,500" (Source: https://www.diverseeducation.com/students/article/15083578/student-athletes-at-work-ncaa-work-rule-will-be-difficult-to-monitor-national-collegiate-athletic-association).  As such, it is clear regular students and student athletes are not in the same boat as you imply due to the fact that regular students can work a part time job without restrictions and student athletes cannot.

Second, those regular students aren't having their NIL utilized by the schools to produce merchandising revenue for the school's coffers like the student athletes are.  NIL is a highly protected personal right.  It's why you cannot use a picture of a famous person on your box of Wheaties without sending them a % of the revenue or a lump sum for the use of their NIL.  If you do it without their permission they will either sue you for diluting their brand or send a cease and desist if the damages do not warrant a full suit.  However, student-athletes do not get this protection so the schools can use their NIL for whatever and they don't see a dime.

Further, it is important to note that you can contract away your rights to your NIL, as I discovered when I read through Harsin's contract with Auburn earlier this spring but the key there is that Harsin intentionally relinquishes those rights knowingly because he is getting a nice salary in exchange for his services to the university, his NIL is negligible compared to his salary as HC.  The difference with student athletes is that they do not contract away their NIL rights.  Under the previous rules, they are restricted from using their NIL rights for profit or they lose their status as an amateur-athlete and can no longer play collegiate sports.

This puts these kids in a catch-22. Cannot work part-time without restrictions, cannot profit off of their NIL without forfeiting their amateur status (under previous rules), many use college athletics as a way to raise themselves out of poverty so they likely have very little familial financial support, and they feel obligated to play sports at a school so they can perhaps make it to the professional level. 

While the argument could be made "well they don't have to play, or they didn't have to take a scholarship with those restrictions".  For some of them, yes, they HAVE to play a sport or take a scholarship to bring themselves out of a bad socioeconomic situation and to many of them its the only thing they know they are good enough at to warrant being paid enough to bring themselves and their families out of poverty. They really only have a "choice" in the sense that I have a "choice" when my wife asks me to take the trash out.

In summation allowing student athletes to profit off of their NIL is inherently a good thing, however how the incompetent NCAA implemented is not a good thing. The NCAA let NIL run as wild as the wild wild west and did not do its due diligence to design a system with checks and balances to keep these deals capped at reasonable levels. 

It is also important to note that many student athlete's NIL deals involve less than $1000-5000 and mostly involve signing autographs, meet & greets with fans at Alumni businesses, maybe an appearance on a local talk show, or a brief commercial appearance, etc.  Which is how it should be. 

These massive deals being thrown at the top transfers from other schools to get the transfers to their school are considered "inducements" and will bring penalties to the school, plus the NCAA should have foreseen this issue and placed a cap on NIL deals for transfers or something similar.  Unfortunately the NCAA is incompetent and didn't do the due diligence that they should have. 

And now back to the MPT, I was working on...

I was one of those regular students working jobs.  I worked to both pay for school and to have food. I ate oatmeal a lot because it was cheap and good for you but it got old.  I worked as a night cook at Omelote Shoppe in Auburn 6 days a week from 8 to 8 as a cook while carrying 18 hours so it is a little hard for me to feel sorry for any scholarship student be it athletic or student scholarship.  Don't get me wrong I do believe that the athletes should get compensated I am just sad that it took so long to do and was done in such a poor way.  I totally agree with getting one free pass to change teams without sitting out a year but sadly there is to much bad advice where kids go Portal and don't get picked up or end up having to drop lower.  It should have been schools running the promotions so they would have has institutional control now we don't have any control. My problem is not with the kids getting the money it is the total lack of control. The problem is that college football got to big free tv money coaches with multi-million dollar salaries with agents so even when they don't do a good job they have a golden parachute. The athletes should have had livable stipends a long time ago we droiped the ball and now we have a mess.  

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2 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

I'm not saying anything about NIL. I have no problem with a person getting paid while they can. I am simply disputing your claim that scholarship athletes somehow have it worse off than non athletes in similar financial situations regardless of NIL. The poor slums kids working his way through school isn't sending anything back home, buying cars, etc. either 

I'll 100% say if you cannot afford to feed your family you shouldn't have one. I'll die on that hill every day. 

Ive worked both at Auburn with football/baseball and now with a mid/upper tier G5 football program. Scholarship football athletes are not wanting for any needs, even the poorest amongst the lot. 

20, 30 years ago I'll agree scholahip athletes had it rough. That's not an issue today or in the last 10 years. You may have read accounts, but I know the athletes and see/work with them every day. 

 

We can agree that the NIL situation is a farce and has resulted in major issue though. 

I'm good with that, nothing is absolutes so we really don't know how easy it is for any particular person. I was getting too general. You've raised some good points, I jsut went and looked and didn't even realized the article I cited was from 2007 way outdated, and I'll admit this that I felt the part of my post that you addressed with this was the weakest point I had: "I'll 100% say if you cannot afford to feed your family you shouldn't have one. I'll die on that hill every day."

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If we want collegiate sports to continue helping young men and women, this has to be regulated.  First, Congress can and should pass an exemption to anti trust laws.  That is the only way to avoid plaintiff's lawyers filing lawsuit after lawsuit.  Once that is done, colleges should agree on a standard stipend based on the level of competition.  It should be paid equally across the board based on the sport and the revenue that sport generates.  Nobody should expect to get rich playing college ball.  If the only motivation is money, they should go pro.

Life isn't fair and very few get paid big money when they are learning in college. 

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One thing people need to explain to me. The author refers to colleges and athletic departments generating “billions” and becoming “private Fortune 500 companies”.

Besides millionaire coaches, who else is getting rich on the college side thanks to NCAA sports? Can you point to an SID or administrative assistant or  professor or university president who is bankrolled by college sports? 

Essentially asking, who are the billionaires and millionaires who made a fortune on college athletics outside of college football and basketball coaches?

It doesn’t happen. It’s a BS narrative. Very few people “get rich off the backs of these kids”. The money is mostly pumped back into the AD to support other programs and help the university. And therefore, the system isn’t nearly as immoral or exploitive as it sounds.

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23 hours ago, AU9377 said:

If we want collegiate sports to continue helping young men and women, this has to be regulated.  First, Congress can and should pass an exemption to anti trust laws.  That is the only way to avoid plaintiff's lawyers filing lawsuit after lawsuit.  Once that is done, colleges should agree on a standard stipend based on the level of competition.  It should be paid equally across the board based on the sport and the revenue that sport generates.  Nobody should expect to get rich playing college ball.  If the only motivation is money, they should go pro.

Life isn't fair and very few get paid big money when they are learning in college. 

So you are including regulating coaches salaries, AD, and of course capping the money that can be made by the colleges, right. Still nothing to prevent players fresh out of HS for playing for the non NFL leagues. I believe as soon as that happens, NFL will open it up. But that system definitely works for baseball so no reason it won’t work for football.

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Capitalism controlling government rather than government controlling capitalism.

Within the private sector, competition is paramount.  Unfortunately, within public education, it obscures the real objective, educating the people it set out to educate.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2022 at 8:58 PM, GunsmithAU said:

Everything you said was known and accounted for. The offset of a scholarship is more than the vast majority of full time working student make. Add in the food, room and board, etc and scholarship athletes are well above the total possible income they could have made as a regular student

I honestly can't believe that this has to be said, but I swear people don't understand how much a scholarship is worth when student loans are what they are. That $40k student loan balloons to $120k QUICKLY and impedes income for decades. Scholarships and the opportunities provided for student athletes is priceless, in my opinion.

Edited by WDE_OxPx_2010
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On 5/18/2022 at 8:04 PM, Didba said:

Hopefully, the NCAA introduces some restrictions that curtails any of that but like I said they are incompetent so they will still probably screw it up somehow, give me the job with twenty handpicked classmates of mine and we could do a better job than the NCAA.

I don't know if the NCAA can do anything about it.  The Supreme Court ruled against the NCAA and outside of Congress putting in some checks and balances against the Supreme Court decision I don't know if anyone else can do anything.

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