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26 minutes ago, homersapien said:

In contrast to most university police departments, many of our municipal police departments have been militarized IMO.

It wasn't always necessary for rifles to be kept in the trunks of cop cars. Hard enough doing their job.....I certainly wouldn't want to do it while outgunned.

However, an increased focus on firepower surely leads to a shift in approach. I believe shootings like this are the result, which I'm guessing was your point.

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22 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

It wasn't always necessary for rifles to be kept in the trunks of cop cars. Hard enough doing their job.....I certainly wouldn't want to do it while outgunned.

However, an increased focus on firepower surely leads to a shift in approach. I believe shootings like this are the result, which I'm guessing was your point.

Actually, my point was more related to what seems to be a default method of how they approach suspects.  It seems to me they are a little too quick to dominate all suspects physically instead of talking them down or otherwise trying to de-escalate first. 

Also, they seem to be very quick to shoot, although that is a much more difficult thing to judge. Maybe the problem is too many "kick the door in" approaches to residences. (Maybe they need to include tear gas or equivalent in the trunk.)

I don't have any problems with assault rifles in the trunk.

Edited by homersapien
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2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I don't have any problems with assault rifles in the trunk.

I don't either. Just remarking on how much more necessary it is now than it used to be.

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5 hours ago, Leftfield said:

I don't either. Just remarking on how much more necessary it is now than it used to be.

Only because we have pumped so many into the hands of the general public.  Senseless.

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We used to keep shotguns mounted to the front console standing up and the supers carried bolt action rifles in their trunks. SWAT carried M-16A1s. 

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2 hours ago, autigeremt said:

We used to keep shotguns mounted to the front console standing up and the supers carried bolt action rifles in their trunks. SWAT carried M-16A1s. 

Yeah. Then those insane dudes in full body armor robbed that bank in what the 90s? Cops couldn’t put them down with pistols and  12 gauge

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6 hours ago, Didba said:

Yeah. Then those insane dudes in full body armor robbed that bank in what the 90s? Cops couldn’t put them down with pistols and  12 gauge

Pretty much. 

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7 hours ago, Didba said:

Yeah. Then those insane dudes in full body armor robbed that bank in what the 90s? Cops couldn’t put them down with pistols and  12 gauge

That was pretty much the advent of the SWAT unit. That’s also when the revolver got put aside for the higher capacity magazine semi-auto pistol. 
As far as how the raid was conducted in which the individual was shot with the vape pen, each department USUALLY has an SOP for their various sub-teams (SWAT, SRT, HRT,.. etc). I am advanced SWAT certified and was on our warrant service team. 
The general rule of thumb is action is faster than reaction. However, that doesn’t mean you shoot first and ask questions later.  You never want any of your fellow officers in front of you if you have a drawn weapon. Perhaps you keep a person with a less-lethal option at a position in the stack but it’d never be as a point option. 
As I’ve gotten older and my views on drugs/narcotics have changed, I would never ever want to be a part of a drug search warrant again. I’d prefer raids be limited to violent criminals and hostage rescue.
Even as a smaller department, we did hours upon hours of training because of the sheer danger in ANY raid type situation. Training is key because the more training you do, the “slower” things go as you’re conducting the raid and you’re able to recognize the the different scenarios more clearly. 

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2 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

That was pretty much the advent of the SWAT unit. That’s also when the revolver got put aside for the higher capacity magazine semi-auto pistol. 
As far as how the raid was conducted in which the individual was shot with the vape pen, each department USUALLY has an SOP for their various sub-teams (SWAT, SRT, HRT,.. etc). I am advanced SWAT certified and was on our warrant service team. 
The general rule of thumb is action is faster than reaction. However, that doesn’t mean you shoot first and ask questions later.  You never want any of your fellow officers in front of you if you have a drawn weapon. Perhaps you keep a person with a less-lethal option at a position in the stack but it’d never be as a point option. 
As I’ve gotten older and my views on drugs/narcotics have changed, I would never ever want to be a part of a drug search warrant again. I’d prefer raids be limited to violent criminals and hostage rescue.
Even as a smaller department, we did hours upon hours of training because of the sheer danger in ANY raid type situation. Training is key because the more training you do, the “slower” things go as you’re conducting the raid and you’re able to recognize the the different scenarios more clearly. 

Thank you for the input, all of that makes sense.  I don't doubt it is very difficult situation for LEOs to be in.

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2 minutes ago, Didba said:

Thank you for the input, all of that makes sense.  I don't doubt it is very difficult situation for LEOs to be in.

Our unit issued vests (just the vest)weighed about 60lbs because they had ceramic plates for rifle fire. I bought a FRAS (flexible rifle armor system) from Safelife Defense for patrol. It was about $1,700.00 out of my pocket but totally worth it. “Only” weighs about 25lbs and has side coverage. It’s supposed to take rounds from AKs, .223/5.56, 12ga,.. etc which sadly, in today’s world wouldn’t be uncommon to be shot with. 

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48 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

Our unit issued vests (just the vest)weighed about 60lbs because they had ceramic plates for rifle fire. I bought a FRAS (flexible rifle armor system) from Safelife Defense for patrol. It was about $1,700.00 out of my pocket but totally worth it. “Only” weighs about 25lbs and has side coverage. It’s supposed to take rounds from AKs, .223/5.56, 12ga,.. etc which sadly, in today’s world wouldn’t be uncommon to be shot with. 

Yeah, cannot put a price on stopping bullets, 100% worth it.

7.62x39 is a big bullet, impressive for any vest to stop it. Though you'd think most AKs in the US would be in 5.45x39

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51 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

Our unit issued vests (just the vest)weighed about 60lbs because they had ceramic plates for rifle fire. I bought a FRAS (flexible rifle armor system) from Safelife Defense for patrol. It was about $1,700.00 out of my pocket but totally worth it. “Only” weighs about 25lbs and has side coverage. It’s supposed to take rounds from AKs, .223/5.56, 12ga,.. etc which sadly, in today’s world wouldn’t be uncommon to be shot with. 

It’s good to hear the other side of the argument.  Thanks.

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53 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It’s good to hear the other side of the argument.  Thanks.

How is this "the other side of the argument"?  We all want the police to be safe.  Some of us want all of society to be safe.

An arms race within civil society is hardly the answer.  The only winner is those supplying the arms.

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5 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

How is this "the other side of the argument"?  We all want the police to be safe.  Some of us want all of society to be safe.

An arms race within civil society is hardly the answer.  The only winner is those supplying the arms.

It is the side of the police from a policeman.  I don’t have the expertise to know his level of experience and I am thankful he shared his *side of the argument*.

 

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26 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It is the side of the police from a policeman.  I don’t have the expertise to know his level of experience and I am thankful he shared his *side of the argument*.

 

But he wasn't arguing for or against anything? His posts were not persuasive just objective and informative.

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1 hour ago, Didba said:

But he wasn't arguing for or against anything? His posts were not persuasive just objective and informative.

I realize that he was being informative.  It brought in a different side than we normally see on this board.  There is always argument when ever there is a police shooting and he explained the police’s point of view or *side of the argument* so to speak.  Ichy just can’t help herself.

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13 hours ago, aubearcat said:

Our unit issued vests (just the vest)weighed about 60lbs because they had ceramic plates for rifle fire. I bought a FRAS (flexible rifle armor system) from Safelife Defense for patrol. It was about $1,700.00 out of my pocket but totally worth it. “Only” weighs about 25lbs and has side coverage. It’s supposed to take rounds from AKs, .223/5.56, 12ga,.. etc which sadly, in today’s world wouldn’t be uncommon to be shot with. 

Loved the FRAS. That side coverage also kept a blade from entering as easily. 

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On 9/1/2022 at 11:30 PM, autigeremt said:

We used to keep shotguns mounted to the front console standing up and the supers carried bolt action rifles in their trunks. SWAT carried M-16A1s. 

We have Remington 870s in our patrol vehicles. There are departmental issued rifles but we’re also allowed to carry personally owned rifles within certain limitations. I have a 300 Blackout in the trunk. Most of the other officers carry a .223. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/29/2022 at 9:04 PM, AURex said:

As more details emerge about the  mass killing at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, TX, it has become clear that the local police force refused to enter the school and engage the murderer. They even tried to dissuade federal agents from doing so, encouraging them to wait.

Wait for what? Wait for more children and teachers to be slaughtered?

This is not the first time that local police have refused to engage an assailant to protect children from being murdered.

What we have learned is that police are thrilled and eager to kill black Americans, white conservative politicians are eager to protect unborn fetuses, but police and politicians are cringing in the corner, slobbering afraid, to confront anyone who decides to slaughter children in a school.

There is no excuse. There is no defense. There is no moral or humanitarian or Christian justification for this kind of madness.

And I am really tired of all the defenses and protectionism of police who revel in killing, but are scared sh*tless when confronted with a kid with a gun.

Yep, JMO.

 

Dumbest ish I’ve ever read.  The whole “defund the police” thing is a communist narrative to convert to a federal police force.  Guess how billy bad ass a fed cop will act after that……

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13 hours ago, pensacolatiger said:

Dumbest ish I’ve ever read.  The whole “defund the police” thing is a communist narrative to convert to a federal police force.  Guess how billy bad ass a fed cop will act after that……

I missed the "defund the police" part of the post you are responding to.  Can you please point it out to me?

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20 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I missed the "defund the police" part of the post you are responding to.  Can you please point it out to me?

That’s the narrative behind the whole criticize the police thing.  Or maybe you’re focusing on an emotional response on the surface and not questioning the root of your opinion?

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32 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

That’s the narrative behind the whole criticize the police thing.  Or maybe you’re focusing on an emotional response on the surface and not questioning the root of your opinion?

Ah, I see.  My emotions must have overwhelmed my analytical capabilities.:rolleyes:  

BTW, what's my opinion?  And on what?  The police "thing"? What does that mean?

Do you think the police should be above criticism?

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2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Ah, I see.  My emotions must have overwhelmed my analytical capabilities.:rolleyes:  

BTW, what's my opinion?  And on what?  The police "thing"? What does that mean?

Do you think the police should be above criticism?

You’re in like Flynn w/ the resident lefty loonies.  So much so you didn’t understand the connection to defund the police.

No, but I also realize it’s a s***ty job that some really honorable people take on in a selfless manner daily.  Thankfully we have a lot more good ones than bad ones

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