Affirmation model as gay conversion therapy

[AUDub 11,131]

That's the thing about Herzog and Maher in the video. I think they've latched onto the sort of "pop-cultural" definition of a well defined term of art in medicine and they're just stacking misunderstandings from there. Not that they're entirely wrong, as a lot of folks on the other side latch onto that same mistake. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by AUDub

[AUDub 11,131]

"Critical race theory " would probably be a fine analog. 

[TexasTiger 12,810]

 

17 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I think that's largely a myth, to be honest. There are some bad physicians,  sure, but the vast majority of the field take their oath seriously.

The core idea of gender affirmative care is not to blindly affirm trans youth, but to provide a safe space for a differential diagnoses and treatment. As a term of art, the affirmatives in "gender affirmative model" or "gay affirmative model" are no more about making kids trans or gay than the affirmative in "disability affirmative model" is about making patients disabled. It's to remove notional biases that may hinder treatment. 

I'm no psych, but if treating a patient conditioned to hate themselves, it makes sense. 

I think your view of how that supposed model is often practiced is a myth and not the reality of what is generally practiced. I agree most doctors & psychologists take their oaths seriously and are navigating a challenging terrain without  sound, science-based guidance. There are very few true experts in this field (and a number of activists claiming expert status), and far more people experiencing gender dysphoria than there are qualified experts who can assist. These are pro-transition experts who agree:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

[TexasTiger 12,810]

6 minutes ago, AUDub said:

That's the thing about Herzog and Maher in the video. I think they've latched onto the sort of "pop-cultural" definition of a well defined term of art in medicine and they're just stacking misunderstandings from there. Not that they're entirely wrong, as a lot of folks on the other side latch onto that same mistake. 

Herzog has researched what is happening far more than you apparently have. 

[AUDub 11,131]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

Herzog has researched what is happening far more than you apparently have. 

Herzog is also a well known bad faith operator. I trust you'll Google her find and her association with Jesse Singal illuminating. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by AUDub

[TexasTiger 12,810]

6 minutes ago, AUDub said:

"Critical race theory " would probably be a fine analog. 

It’s a fine analog of how most of us “good progressives” ignore valid concerns that may be sprinkled amongst invalid ones by folks we see as close minded and bigoted. 

[TexasTiger 12,810]

3 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Herzog is also a well known faith operator. I trust you'll Google her find and her association with Jesse Singal illuminating. 

Give me a meaningful fact-supported critique of both her & Singal on these issues  instead of the standard association slam that obfuscates these issues and makes real dialogue next to impossible. 

[AUDub 11,131]

22 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Give me a meaningful fact-supported critique of both her & Singal on these issues  instead of the standard association slam that obfuscates these issues and makes real dialogue next to impossible. 

Not much to say. She's pretty much made a career of being your run of the mill trans exclusionary radical feminist that gets a pass on calling trans women icky because she's gay herself.

A particular article she wrote:

https://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/06/28/25252342/the-detransitioners-they-were-transgender-until-they-werent

Is so loaded down with misrepresentation and that even he r/medicine community in reddit slapped her with an unreliable source tag. They don't do that for partisan reasons. She's a liar. 

She's also so irascible that effing Popehat slapped her with a block on Twitter. That takes effort. 

Let's go into detail on the article...

[I_M4_AU 7,771]

6 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

Does that growing number have a negative effect on society? 

The LGBTQ1+ Coalition is predominantly anti family in that there seems to be a lot less tendency to produce children.  We are, at this time, at a 30 year low of fertility and we are not sustaining the population of the US.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/425025-cdc-americans-not-having-enough-babies-to-sustain-population/

It goes without saying any trans person will be sterilized after top and bottom surgery.

15 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

If mistakes happen what is reversable and what isn't? What are the chances that a mistake could occur? How much does quality of life improve after such a transition (hey maybe this is related to your question about why they would like the transition done early)? Does an early transition open up options like fairly participating in sports competitions where a late transition is now imo a fairly gray area?

Mistakes???  The biggest *mistake* would not be known until the child, in their mind, has transitioned and regret the decision.  If the child has to have cosmetic surgery to make them feel better about themselves there might be a problem.  Any parent should understand this, but unfortunately it hasn’t gotten through to many.

The biggest argument to parents about their gender dysphoric child is “would you rather have a live daughter or a dead son”?  This is misinformation at best and deceptive at its worst.

Another UK article:

However, is this really true? Is there strong evidence to support this widely held view? We strongly believe that the answer is no.

Although there is no doubt that children and young people suffering gender dysphoria are an extremely vulnerable group deserving of our support and care, the oft-quoted suicide statistics are from surveys which are not robust and there is no evidence that transition is a ‘cure.’

Any risk of suicide is terrifying for parents, every suicide is an awful tragedy and for this reason we feel that exaggerating the risk and constantly using the threat of suicide is unhelpful and irresponsible. We have attempted to sort out the actual facts of this emotive subject.

Studies in the UK

There have been two studies conducted in the UK. We have analysed both in detail as well as contacting the academic groups who carried out the studies. We believe there are fundamental weaknesses in both studies which seriously undermine the claim that suicide is a major risk.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

The part about early transition to participate in sports is so flawed.  This may be an after effect of transitioning, but should never be the driving force.  I really thing the Olympic committee stepped in it by proposing such a thing.  They are kicking the can down the road and causing confusion.

41 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

Requirements are silly, and intent matters

There in lies the rub.  The SCOTUS has included Transgendered people in the sex discrimination law of 1964.  Therefore, the workplace is required to defend a person who has been misgendered if they feel abused.

[homersapien 11,353]

3 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Does reality matter?  I’m not talking about *your* reality just reality.

 

Irony

[homersapien 11,353]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Exploring identity issues around sexuality and gender seems to be a defining characteristic of this generation— let them explore and consider with love & support, but not undue encouragement to pursue a particular direction and certainly not medicalization.

Two words:  Social Media

[TexasTiger 12,810]

8 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Not much to say. She's pretty much made a career of being your run of the mill trans exclusionary radical feminist that gets a pass on calling trans women icky because she's gay herself.

A particular article she wrote:

https://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/06/28/25252342/the-detransitioners-they-were-transgender-until-they-werent

Is so loaded down with misrepresentation and that even he r/medicine community in reddit slapped her with an unreliable source tag. They don't do that for partisan reasons. She's a liar. 

She's also so irascible that effing Popehat slapped her with a block on Twitter. That takes effort. 

Let's go into detail on the article...

Tell me specifically what she’s said that you find transphobic. I’m asking you to engage in actual critical thought instead of the simplistic labeling mastered by the Right? “We’ll, this dude blocked her on Twitter, so that’s all you need to know.” Dude, listen to yourself.

And what does it take to be labeled a TERF? Do you know how easily that slur gets thrown around?

And Dan Savage— the “it gets better” guy. Is he transphobic, too?

 

[AUDub 11,131]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Two words:  Social Media

And the bad thing about it is how much of a positive feedback loop it is. 

[AUDub 11,131]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Dude, listen to yourself.

Cool your jets. As I said, I'm quite literally dissecting her article for your consumption as we speak.

You seem unusually strident and emotive about this topic. Knock off the hostility.

Edited July 18, 2022 by AUDub

[TexasTiger 12,810]

2 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Cool your jets. As I said, I'm quite literally dissecting her article for your consumption as we speak.

You seem unusually strident and emotive about this topic. Knock off the hostility.

I’m bothered by irrational, arrogant groupthink regardless of what political label one slaps on it. Looking into this topic over the last two years I’ve seen a ton of misogyny parading as being “anti-TERF” and practiced mostly by those I largely align with on most political issues. I’ve developed great empathy for (mostly) women I know being unfairly smeared and dehumanized by that term. 

[AUDub 11,131]

Just now, TexasTiger said:

I’m bothered by irrational, arrogant groupthink regardless of what political label one slaps on it. Looking into this topic over the last two years I’ve seen a ton of misogyny parading as being “anti-TERF” and practiced mostly by those I largely align with on most political issues. I’ve developed great empathy for (mostly) women I know being unfairly smeared and dehumanized by that term. 

I'm kind of offended you'd accuse me of that. We agree on a lot more than you realize. Hell I literally said not an hour ago that I think the "trans community" in general is toxic and is making light of a serious medical condition.

I also agree that trans women have no business competing in women's sports etc. My position is nuanced and I like to think I'm approaching it from as unbiased a perspective as possible. 

You are being rude. 

[TexasTiger 12,810]

9 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I'm kind of offended you'd accuse me of that. We agree on a lot more than you realize. Hell I literally said not an hour ago that I think the "trans community" in general is toxic and is making light of a serious medical condition.

I also agree that trans women have no business competing in women's sports etc. My position is nuanced and I like to think I'm approaching it from as unbiased a perspective as possible. 

You are being rude. 

I didn’t accuse you of that. I apologize if I wasn’t clear. I was explaining to you why you might see me as “emotive” on this issue. You did deride Herzog as a TERF, though. The folks who generally apply that label would attach it to you, as well, for your position on women’s sports, although men aren’t generally attacked nearly as vociferously.

[AUDub 11,131]

6 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I didn’t accuse you of that. I apologize if I wasn’t clear. I was explaining to you why you might see me as “emotive” on this issue. You did deride Herzog as a TERF, though. The folks who generally apply that label would attach it to you, as well, for your position on women’s sports, although men aren’t generally attacked nearly as vociferously.

There's middle ground.

Herzog had pretty much found her footing these days and it's iconoclasm with regard to trans people. It's unfortunately become her cultural footprint. She lied her ass off to make her point, as I'll demonstrate.

And like I said, the trans community and their "allies" in general are toxic and I can't stand them. If they want to accuse me of being a TERF because I took offense at Lia Thomas clubbing baby seals in a competition in which she had no business competing, fine. I'll eat that label. I'll respect her as a woman as she wishes. Won't respect her as a person though. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by AUDub

[TexasTiger 12,810]

15 minutes ago, AUDub said:

There's middle ground.

Herzog had pretty much found her footing these days and it's iconoclasm with regard to trans people. It's unfortunately become her cultural footprint. She lied her ass off to make her point, as I'll demonstrate.

And like I said, the trans community and their "allies" in general is toxic and I can't stand them. If they want to accuse me of being a TERF because I took offense at Lia Thomas clubbing baby seals in a competition in which she had no business competing, fine. I'll eat that label. I'll respect her as a woman as she wishes. Won't respect her as a person though. 

There should be a “middle ground.” A reasoned center. Politically we haven’t found it yet. I follow UK politics recently  which has ground zero for this debate for years. 

Up until a couple of years ago I looked at the parties raising concerns about trans rights in this country, readily dismissed them as bigots (most were) and tended to lump such folks together— I was guilty of making lazy assumptions.
 

Then I started seeing articles and tweets about JK Rowling being horribly transphobic, which surprised me. The characterization was scathing— saying she threatened trans peoples very existence. I was shocked. What did she say? Most articles just repeated the slur— she’s transphobic because she said unnamed transphobic things. I dug deeper. Followed the issue closely. The criticism on her intensified from blue check Twitter progressives. I’m still looking for anything from her that a reasonable person would call transphobic, but it’s become an article of faith among most progressives.
 

It’s been illuminating. Any attempt at a balanced, reasoned center approach is called transphobic by key influencers so that conversation rarely happens in so-called progressive circles. Those some circles do often make derisive about TERFS. 

[AUDub 11,131]

16 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

There should be a “middle ground.” A reasoned center. Politically we haven’t found it yet. I follow UK politics recently  which has ground zero for this debate for years. 

Up until a couple of years ago I looked at the parties raising concerns about trans rights in this country, readily dismissed them as bigots (most were) and tended to lump such folks together— I was guilty of making lazy assumptions.
 

Then I started seeing articles and tweets about JK Rowling being horribly transphobic, which surprised me. The characterization was scathing— saying she threatened trans peoples very existence. I was shocked. What did she say? Most articles just repeated the slur— she’s transphobic because she said unnamed transphobic things. I dug deeper. Followed the issue closely. The criticism on her intensified from blue check Twitter progressives. I’m still looking for anything from her that a reasonable person would call transphobic, but it’s become an article of faith among most progressives.
 

It’s been illuminating. Any attempt at a balanced, reasoned center approach is called transphobic by key influencers so that conversation rarely happens in so-called progressive circles. Those some circles do often make derisive comments about TERFS. 

My breaking point was Dave Chappelle

[TexasTiger 12,810]

5 minutes ago, AUDub said:

My breaking point was Dave Chappelle

What/how exactly?

And I just finished the Herzog article you linked to— I’m even more curious what exactly you base your harsh critique of her on.

[AUDub 11,131]

Just now, TexasTiger said:

What/how exactly?

And I just finished the Herzog article you linked to— I’m even more curious what exactly you base your harsh critique of her on.

The crux of the Chappelle thing boils down to hypocrisy. Chappelle has made a career of telling offensive jokes. White folks, black folks,  Asian folks, gay folks, women.

All that? Nary a word. Even made him a millionaire and one of the most popular comedians alive.

But you make a trans people joke? Ooh buddy the full might the perpetually offended came down on him hard.

Imagine how frustrating that must be for him? Here's a black man, admittedly richer than most, that has found a group that A. Can't take a joke and B. Has the kind of cultural veto power that he, as a black man, could only dream about.

It comes down to asking who the real bully is, and who the victim is. In a sense, it's a deep critique of "cancel culture," and how hyper-reactive those people can be. He doubled down on it for a reason. 

I thought this was a good summary. It's a Rorschach Test, and a damn good one. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/dave-chappelle-the-closer/620364/

[TexasTiger 12,810]

6 minutes ago, AUDub said:

The crux of the Chappelle thing boils down to hypocrisy. Chappelle has made a career of telling offensive jokes. White folks, black folks,  Asian folks, gay folks, women.

All that? Nary a word. Even made him a millionaire and one of the most popular comedians alive.

But you make a trans people joke? Ooh buddy the full might the perpetually offended came down on him hard.

Imagine how frustrating that must be for him? Here's a black man, admittedly richer than most, that has found a group that A. Can't take a joke and B. Has the kind of cultural veto power that he, as a black man, could only dream about.

It comes down to asking who the real bully is, and who the victim is. In a sense, it's a deep critique of "cancel culture," and how hyper-reactive those people can be. He doubled down on it for a reason. 

I thought this was a good summary. It's a Rorschach Test, and a damn good one. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/dave-chappelle-the-closer/620364/

Did you see how he handled the theater naming controversy at his old high school?

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/dave-chappelle-speech-alma-mater-211154883.html

[AUDub 11,131]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Did you see how he handled the theater naming controversy at his old high school?

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/dave-chappelle-speech-alma-mater-211154883.html

I did. I think there's a certain amount of grandstanding there but let's face it. He's not wrong. 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

How does such a small percentage of the population become such a focal point in political discourse?

I could understand a preoccupation with sex and, sexuality but,,, not the sex and sexuality of others.