It’s a cult

[TexasTiger 12,833]

Follow the thread 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

It is a cult but, it is not dependent upon Trump.  He is the temporary cult leader.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

Frum’s take is what I have been concerned about since Garland made this bone headed move.  I am all for moving on from Trump, but let it occur naturally.  Now the DOJ has given the impression they are out for blood and it has rallied his base and they are digging their heels in.  

Realize, it’s not Trump, it’s the impression of the deep state that Garland is promoting with every move he makes.  Biden with the *unifying the country* campaign promise was and is complete BS.

Garland better finish the job or their will be hell to pay.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Frum’s take is what I have been concerned about since Garland made this bone headed move.  I am all for moving on from Trump, but let it occur naturally.  Now the DOJ has given the impression they are out for blood and it has rallied his base and they are digging their heels in.  

Realize, it’s not Trump, it’s the impression of the deep state that Garland is promoting with every move he makes.  Biden with the *unifying the country* campaign promise was and is complete BS.

Garland better finish the job or their will be hell to pay.

How do you know it was a "bone headed move" by Garland?  Do we really know enough at this point to make that determination?  And if there was legitimate reason to get this warrant and search MAL, should we not do something we'd do in any other situation simply because the target has a legion of reactionist and violent morons it will upset?

[Leftfield 2,593]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Frum’s take is what I have been concerned about since Garland made this bone headed move.  I am all for moving on from Trump, but let it occur naturally.  Now the DOJ has given the impression they are out for blood and it has rallied his base and they are digging their heels in.  

If it turns out some of these documents do in fact relate to our nuclear secrets and capabilities, or those of our allies, would you still consider Garland's actions bone-headed?

4 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Garland better finish the job or their will be hell to pay.

Will you believe him if he does?

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

How do you know it was a "bone headed move" by Garland?  Do we really know enough at this point to make that determination?  And if there was legitimate reason to get this warrant and search MAL, should we not do something we'd do in any other situation simply because the target has a legion of reactionist and violent morons it will upset?

If Garland wanted just the missing documents he could have shown up when Trump was as MAL with a warrant and had a come to Jesus meeting with Trump and his lawyers before serving the warrant.  Give the man the opportunity to do the right thing one last time.

The bone headed part was showing up when he knew Trump was not on the premises.  It smacks of vindictiveness and payback, not cooperation.  You may believe Trump would not change his mind about the documents, but we will never know.

Do you believe it might have been better to approach this sensitive situation a little differently than to upset the reactionist’s?  Is this part of the unifying effort Biden mentioned in his inaugural speech?  Is this part of the peaceful transfer of power?  Or are we in the tit for tat phase of our countries governance?

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

15 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Will you believe him if he does?

For the first part; see my reply to Titan.

Yes, I will and welcome it.  I have said before, I am ready to move on from Trump.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

If Garland wanted just the missing documents he could have shown up when Trump was as MAL with a warrant and had a come to Jesus meeting with Trump and his lawyers before serving the warrant.  Give the man the opportunity to do the right thing one last time.

They'd already had months of back and forth giving him multiple opportunities to "do the right thing."  Why should they continue?
 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

The bone headed part was showing up when he knew Trump was not on the premises.  It smacks of vindictiveness and payback, not cooperation.  You may believe Trump would not change his mind about the documents, but we will never know.

It's quite normal actually and a search warrant shouldn't be scheduled around the target's convenience or schedule. He can't be in the search area anyway.  There's no reason to make such an accommodation.  I used to work in a job that required a TS clearance and I can tell you, had I removed classified information to my house and they discovered it, I wouldn't have gotten months to comply with returning them, much less the courtesy of being there when they decided to execute the search warrant at my house.  
 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

Do you believe it might have been better to approach this sensitive situation a little differently than to upset the reactionist’s?  Is this part of the unifying effort Biden mentioned in his inaugural speech?  Is this part of the peaceful transfer of power?  Or are we in the tit for tat phase of our countries governance?

Actually, no.  I don't think you make decisions like this based on what a bunch of crazies who will spin it the way they are going to spin it no matter what and buy whatever bull**** Trump says about it.  I mean we still have brain-dead dingdongs repeating his lie about Obama removing documents and not being "raided" even though a cursory Google search not to mention a direct response from the National Archives shooting it down last week readily available to anyone that cares about honesty and accuracy.

Again, this was not Garland with a hair trigger.  This was the last move of several back and forth over the course of months with Trump and his lawyers, them turning in some stuff but not everything requested, ignoring repeated requests for things he still had and so on.  If certain people who are so far up Trump's butt they know what he ate for breakfast refuse to accept it, it's not on Garland or the DOJ to placate them and smooth over their feelings.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

For the first part; see my reply to Titan.

Yes, I will and welcome it.  I have said before, I am ready to move on from Trump.

You don't seem to be.  Has he not shown you enough of his character?

Who would you say has/had more integrity, Richard Nixon or Donald Trump?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

They'd already had months of back and forth giving him multiple opportunities to "do the right thing."  Why should they continue?
 

It's quite normal actually and a search warrant shouldn't be scheduled around the target's convenience or schedule. He can't be in the search area anyway.  There's no reason to make such an accommodation.  I used to work in a job that required a TS clearance and I can tell you, had I removed classified information to my house and they discovered it, I wouldn't have gotten months to comply with returning them, much less the courtesy of being there when they decided to execute the search warrant at my house.  
 

Actually, no.  I don't think you make decisions like this based on what a bunch of crazies who will spin it the way they are going to spin it no matter what and buy whatever bull**** Trump says about it.  I mean we still have brain-dead dingdongs repeating his lie about Obama removing documents and not being "raided" even though a cursory Google search not to mention a direct response from the National Archives shooting it down last week readily available to anyone that cares about honesty and accuracy.

Again, this was not Garland with a hair trigger.  This was the last move of several back and forth over the course of months with Trump and his lawyers, them turning in some stuff but not everything requested, ignoring repeated requests for things he still had and so on.  If certain people who are so far up Trump's butt they know what he ate for breakfast refuse to accept it, it's not on Garland or the DOJ to placate them and smooth over their feelings.

But the FBI probably planted those documents that Trump had already declassified.  Witch hunt.  I heard it on Fox News.

[Leftfield 2,593]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

If Garland wanted just the missing documents he could have shown up when Trump was as MAL with a warrant and had a come to Jesus meeting with Trump and his lawyers before serving the warrant.  Give the man the opportunity to do the right thing one last time.

If you go through the effort of getting a warrant it would be ludicrous not to use it. At that point you have very good reason to believe some bad stuff is going on, and considering Trump and his team's handling of the situation, no reason to believe they will be completely forthcoming. Time is of the essence. 

 

10 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The bone headed part was showing up when he knew Trump was not on the premises.  It smacks of vindictiveness and payback, not cooperation.  You may believe Trump would not change his mind about the documents, but we will never know.

Should they have waited? Did they know when he would next be back in residence? Are you suggesting they should have asked him about his schedule? 

12 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Do you believe it might have been better to approach this sensitive situation a little differently than to upset the reactionist’s?  Is this part of the unifying effort Biden mentioned in his inaugural speech?  Is this part of the peaceful transfer of power?  Or are we in the tit for tat phase of our countries governance?

What did Biden have to do with the raid?

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

6 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Time is of the essence

Trump has had those documents for 18 months, what was the rush with old information.  We really don’t know what he had.

 

7 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Should they have waited? Did they know when he would next be back in residence? Are you suggesting they should have asked him about his schedule? 

They knew he was not there on that Monday, of course they knew his schedule.

 

8 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

What did Biden have to do with the raid?

It is Biden’s administration and the DOJ is part of that.  If Biden was serious about pulling the country together, his vision should have been known and complied with by all of his departments.  This is not how you lead the country for all of its citizens.

[Leftfield 2,593]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

Trump has had those documents for 18 months, what was the rush with old information.  We really don’t know what he had.

I guess we'll have to wait for the affidavit to come out to know for sure what they thought he had, but why do you think they knew for 18 months? Reports have said that new information came to light recently about what might be there. There's no reason to think the DOJ knew those documents had been missing the whole time.

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

...of course they knew his schedule.

Why do you assume this?

7 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It is Biden’s administration and the DOJ is part of that.  If Biden was serious about pulling the country together, his vision should have been known and complied with by all of his departments.  This is not how you lead the country for all of its citizens.

So, what you're saying is, Biden should decide when the DOJ is allowed to make a move, for political reasons, and not allow them to do their jobs as they see best? Sort of like a dictator?

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

8 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

There's no reason to think the DOJ knew those documents had been missing the whole time.

So you are saying nuclear secrets can go missing for 18 months and nobody knows about them missing?  I would think whoever is in charge of such a sensitive matter would contact the DOJ asap.

10 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Why do you assume this?

Because they timed their raid when he wasn’t there, so therefore, they knew his schedule.  It would be simple to coordinate a meeting at Mar a Lago wouldn’t you think?

12 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

So, what you're saying is, Biden should decide when the DOJ is allowed to make a move, for political reasons, and not allow them to do their jobs as they see best? Sort of like a dictator?

No, that is not what I am saying.  I’m saying if Biden truly wanted to unify the country his departments would act like that is a top priority.  As I have stated before, there are better ways of gaining cooperation other than a raid on the former President while he is not at his residence.

[Leftfield 2,593]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

So you are saying nuclear secrets can go missing for 18 months and nobody knows about them missing?  I would think whoever is in charge of such a sensitive matter would contact the DOJ asap.

So would I. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. We don't know. If they did, I would want to know as much as you why it took so long. If they didn't, I want to know why.

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Because they timed their raid when he wasn’t there, so therefore, they knew his schedule.  It would be simple to coordinate a meeting at Mar a Lago wouldn’t you think?

You believe they intentionally timed it as such? Do you have any evidence to support this?

Do you think it would be wise for the DOJ to set a meeting with Trump at Mar a Lago? Would that not be an immediate tip-off that something was up, and that it would be prudent to move or destroy the documents in question? Is this how you would run the DOJ?

4 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

No, that is not what I am saying.  I’m saying if Biden truly wanted to unify the country his departments would act like that is a top priority.  As I have stated before, there are better ways of gaining cooperation other than a raid on the former President while he is not at his residence.

Do you think Biden should have national unity as a priority over national security? Do you believe that simply because he didn't mention national security as a priority while campaigning, he should lean toward unity over his inherent duty? 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

They should have asked him nicely.

They did.

They should have been patient.

They were.

Well, they waited too long.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

7 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

You believe they intentionally timed it as such? Do you have any evidence to support this?

Do you think it would be wise for the DOJ to set a meeting with Trump at Mar a Lago? Would that not be an immediate tip-off that something was up, and that it would be prudent to move or destroy the documents in question? Is this how you would run the DOJ?

The warrant was issued on Friday and they waited until Monday to serve the warrant.  Was there a reason for that?  The FBI doesn’t work on the weekends?

People are allowed to turn themselves in to law enforcement all the time, why would it be so difficult in this situation

9 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Do you think Biden should have national unity as a priority over national security? Do you believe that simply because he didn't mention national security as a priority while campaigning, he should lean toward unity over his inherent duty? 

I didn’t say that either, what I said is that he emphasized unity in his inaugural speech and has not shown any form of unity since his speech.  He is a fraud.  Do you think if the Republicans win the White House in 2024 that they should investigate Biden for his connection with China through his son Hunter when he is out of office?

If the Republicans gain the House in 2022 should they have impeachment hearings about Biden’s dereliction of duty at the boarder or his inept withdrawal from Afghanistan?  Or assign a special counsel to investigate Hunter’s laptop as it pertains to his father?

There is a slippery slope here that could be avoided by some diplomacy without compromising national security.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

4 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

They should have asked him nicely.

They did.

They should have been patient.

They were.

Well, they waited too long.

How did they wait too long?  What has happened?

[Leftfield 2,593]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

The warrant was issued on Friday and they waited until Monday to serve the warrant.  Was there a reason for that?  The FBI doesn’t work on the weekends?

People are allowed to turn themselves in to law enforcement all the time, why would it be so difficult in this situation

But there wasn't a warrant out for Trump's arrest. How could he turn himself in? Moreover, even if he had, what would stop those in his circle from moving or destroying documents? 

Also, since you're so zeroed in on national unity, what do you think would have happened if Trump had been there and refused to comply? In order to execute the warrant the agents would then have to forcibly remove everyone that resisted, including Trump. How insane would Trump's supporters go if the FBI removed Trump from Mar a Lago in handcuffs? Have you considered this at all?

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I didn’t say that either, what I said is that he emphasized unity in his inaugural speech and has not shown any form of unity since his speech.  He is a fraud.  

Well, he has tried, but I'm not surprised you don't see, or at least admit, that.

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Do you think if the Republicans win the White House in 2024 that they should investigate Biden for his connection with China through his son Hunter when he is out of office?

No, I think they should investigate Hunter, which is actually already happening, and if Biden was involved and they find evidence of such then let the chips fall where they may. I have no love for Biden, and he should be held accountable for any illegal activity just like everyone else.

8 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

If the Republicans gain the House in 2022 should they have impeachment hearings about Biden’s dereliction of duty at the boarder or his inept withdrawal from Afghanistan?  Or assign a special counsel to investigate Hunter’s laptop as it pertains to his father?

No, because doing a poor job in the eyes of the opposition party does not constitute dereliction of duty. I do think it needs to be investigated why our intelligence staff thought we would have more time before the Taliban took over, and yes, the buck stops with the President, but it does not constitute criminal intent or dereliction of duty.

As to the laptop, yes, investigate it. You do not open an investigation on anyone else unless the evidence leads that way. A reference to the "big guy" does not mean you immediately open an investigation into Biden just because you think that's who it is. You find out who the "big guy" is first, and then investigate them.

14 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

There is a slippery slope here that could be avoided by some diplomacy without compromising national security.

Easily said. I'm quite happy to not have you in a role protecting our national security.

 

[creed 1,635]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

So you are saying nuclear secrets can go missing for 18 months and nobody knows about them missing?  I would think whoever is in charge of such a sensitive matter would contact the DOJ asap.

Because they timed their raid when he wasn’t there, so therefore, they knew his schedule.  It would be simple to coordinate a meeting at Mar a Lago wouldn’t you think?

No, that is not what I am saying.  I’m saying if Biden truly wanted to unify the country his departments would act like that is a top priority.  As I have stated before, there are better ways of gaining cooperation other than a raid on the former President while he is not at his residence.

What the hell is this unify the country bs tangent? Whatever happened, happened because of trump. He just needs to man up and take responsibility for his actions. It’s that simple, no excuses.

[autigeremt 6,599]

12 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Frum’s take is what I have been concerned about since Garland made this bone headed move.  I am all for moving on from Trump, but let it occur naturally.  Now the DOJ has given the impression they are out for blood and it has rallied his base and they are digging their heels in.  

Realize, it’s not Trump, it’s the impression of the deep state that Garland is promoting with every move he makes.  Biden with the *unifying the country* campaign promise was and is complete BS.

Garland better finish the job or their will be hell to pay.

As long as the Democrats rule Garland and the rest of the blackshirts are safe. 

[TexasTiger 12,833]

52 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

As long as the Democrats rule Garland and the rest of the blackshirts are safe. 

You’ve seriously gone off the deep end.

[homersapien 11,367]

22 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

For the first part; see my reply to Titan.

Yes, I will and welcome it.  I have said before, I am ready to move on from Trump.

Yet, you don't seem to be ready to acknowledge Trump did exactly what he did - take classified documents (a felony).

You've implied that Garland has gone out of his way to avoid recovering these documents in a low key manner (as if that were possible).  And from some of your posts, you apparently willing to entertain the possibility that this was all "trumped up" to embarrass the Donald - some sort of political gambit.

Do you really think Garland is that stupid or incompetent?  Are you not willing to accept the simplest explanation - everything that has been reported is accurate? 

Everything we know about Garland is that he is a stickler for following the law and proper procedure.  I am confident he has done so.  There's no reason to think otherwise.

On the other hand, we have plenty of experience with Trump's contempt for the rule of law.

This whole episode is not nearly as complicated or mysterious as you think, and there is certainly no reason to think it's nefarious.  Garland is not the sort of person who would stupidly shoot themselves in the foot.

We are either a country that is established on the rule of law, or we aren't.  MAGAs are apparently perfectly happy to go with the latter.

Edited August 16, 2022 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Yet, you don't seem to be ready to acknowledge Trump did exactly what he did - take classified documents (a felony).

Is it possible for a President to take classified documents if he has the authority to de-classify any document.  Not a felony.

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Do you really think Garland is that stupid or incompetent?

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

On the other hand, we have plenty of experience with Trump's contempt for the rule of law.

This has not been proven, only speculation on the liberal media’s part (and also many on this forum).

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

We are either a country that is established on the rule of law, or we aren't. 

So let the DOJ prove Trump did something wrong.  Popular opinion does not make the rule of law.  You should know this.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

19 hours ago, creed said:

What the hell is this unify the country bs tangent? Whatever happened, happened because of trump. He just needs to man up and take responsibility for his actions. It’s that simple, no excuses.

Man you are now officially in the cult.  Since day one Biden has executed EOs that were divisive.  One in particular is the teaching of gender ideology in school under the guise of preventing bullying.

A lot of his EOs dissolved policies that were popular with half the country.  Biden is a authoritarian and you can’t see it.  Trump was abrasive, but his policies helped a lot of problems.  I don’t want him to be on the ticket again, but Garland has almost guaranteed that he will be.

Should Trump has manned up and admitted he was a Russian stooge?  Should he admit to something he has not done just to make you feel better?