Discussion to leave the NCAA

[Hank2020 3,199]

9 hours ago, AUGnome said:

I agree 100%. I watch because it's my school that I love. If it were a semi-pro team sponsored by the school I love, then I'm not sure I even care anymore.

Its always been a team sponsored by the school you back. Very few were “normal” students.

[Tiger 8,818]

If you're interested in "regular students" athletics the intramurals competition is always available to watch but for some reason it just doesn't have the same draw

[Mikey 16,576]

1 hour ago, Hank2020 said:

Its always been a team sponsored by the school you back. Very few were “normal” students.

I had several football and basketball players in some of my AU classes. I thought they were normal students, with a part-time job that took up way more time than my 20-hour a week job took. One football classmate told me his grades looked like a saw blade: up in the summer, down in fall, up in winter, down in spring.

The guys I knew were concerned with their grades, just like the rest of us were.

[Hank2020 3,199]

4 hours ago, Mikey said:

I had several football and basketball players in some of my AU classes. I thought they were normal students, with a part-time job that took up way more time than my 20-hour a week job took. One football classmate told me his grades looked like a saw blade: up in the summer, down in fall, up in winter, down in spring.

The guys I knew were concerned with their grades, just like the rest of us were.

In what era was that? That is certainly not the case now.

[CT Tiger 136]

On 8/18/2022 at 8:44 AM, W.E.D said:

Guys, it will never break away from being "College" football.  You see how literally on one gives a damn about arena, europe, or whatever stupid spring semi-pro leagues they have popping up.

There will always be a semi-relationship with schools.  Just b/c kids are getting paid doesn't mean they can't be student athletes.  I've never understood the mindset that everyone can make billions of dollars, coaches salaries are cool exploding to 8 figures per year with 40mm buyouts, OCs can make 1-3 million, and on down the line....but you DEMAND the talent of the league remain poor as eff and get absolutely no benefit when they are the ones killing their bodies. 

This isn't 1985 when there was near no money in the sport and some coaches had 2nd jobs in the offseason.  This is a billion dollar industry and needs to be treated as such.

P5 should break off.  Athletes need to form some kind of players union.  NIL needs to be somewhat regulated, and players need to be paid by the university.  If that means Coaches salaries need to be cut by 40% than so be it

Yeah I am pretty much right there with you. I always found the argument that student athletes can't also be employees because their students to not make much sense. There are all types of student workers on college campuses, from TA and research assistant to working in bookstores, various offices, rec centers and other facilities. Why can't athletes who compete at the highest collegiate level, especially as the workhorses in a multibillion dollar industry, also be considered as a type of employee? (Other than screwing them out of a cut of profits and the ability to unionize.)

Relying solely on an unregulated NIL model with an unrestricted transfer portal is much worse, IMO. The best students can just transfer to the highest bidder after each season. 

[AUght2win 6,833]

6 hours ago, Hank2020 said:

Its always been a team sponsored by the school you back. Very few were “normal” students.

Where does he say they were normal students? He just wants them to have a connection to the school, as do I. I really won’t watch if these aren’t kids that have anything to do with the university.

[AUght2win 6,833]

3 minutes ago, CT Tiger said:

Yeah I am pretty much right there with you. I always found the argument that student athletes can't also be employees because their students to not make much sense. There are all types of student workers on college campuses, from TA and research assistant to working in bookstores, various offices, rec centers and other facilities. Why can't athletes who compete at the highest collegiate level, especially as the workhorses in a multibillion dollar industry, also be considered as a type of employee? (Other than screwing them out of a cut of profits and the ability to unionize.)

Relying solely on an unregulated NIL model with an unrestricted transfer portal is much worse, IMO. The best students can just transfer to the highest bidder after each season. 

How many bookstore employees were reeling in 6 figures? And being an athlete actually doesn’t provide a necessary function of a university. It’s great and fun but it doesn’t facilitate learning like all the other jobs you named. Not a good parallel.

[CT Tiger 136]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:11 PM, AUght2win said:

I will never, ever, ever understand how we got to a point where we consider a free college education as “no benefit”. I mean monetarily it’s literally be 50k to upwards of 100k. Add in meals, housing, everything. To play a damn game. Doing that for 85 kids at a time, at hundreds of schools.

The college game could very well revolutionize itself into relative obscurity. Won’t happen overnight. But I know personally I don’t spend a quarter of the time I used to watching or following CFB.

If you fundamentally break the appeal - student athletes playing for the schools you attended/are connected to, people are going to tune out. And there’s going to be no other choice but to do exactly that. If the schools pay kids, unions do CBAs, conferences hold high school drafts it will be unfeasible to ask kids to go to class. And that’ll be the severing.

CFB is too big to fail but it’s not too big to recede. MLB has. Boxing has. Hockey did but has finally come back a bit. It’ll be interesting to see.

That is a reasonable argument but the money they generate is disproportionally higher than just a free ride from the university. Not to mention a lot of these kids come from abject poverty and that money might be the difference between rent and bills being paid with food on the table for their families. Even the ones that don't come from poverty may very well be at the highest income generating part of their lives, especially since most will not make it to or in the NFL (e.g., Jamarcus Russell).

Finally, let's not forget about the serious long-term damage, especially neurological, that comes with football, especially at the P5 level in college. That damage can be be prohibitive for football players to truly use that free education they got and they weren't able to capitalize when they were in their prime. Even though he was initially drafted into the NFL, look at what happened to Tre Mason as an example. He wasn't able receive a cut of the profits he helped generate during that 2013 season when Auburn was at the top of the sports world, which subsequently also ended up being the pinnacle of his football career. And that's a damn shame in my book. 

[CT Tiger 136]

13 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

How many bookstore employees were reeling in 6 figures? And being an athlete actually doesn’t provide a necessary function of a university. It’s great and fun but it doesn’t facilitate learning like all the other jobs you named. Not a good parallel.

No, you are right. But I never claimed that it did. 

Let me answer your first question with my own question--how many book store employees helped the university bring in 9 figure revenues as a direct result of their contribution? 

[toddc 13,194]

1 hour ago, AUght2win said:

How many bookstore employees were reeling in 6 figures? And being an athlete actually doesn’t provide a necessary function of a university. It’s great and fun but it doesn’t facilitate learning like all the other jobs you named. Not a good parallel.

I would argue an athlete gains tons of learning/life lessons that non-athletes don’t gain from from the listed jobs. In fact a lot of them are gaining experience for their next job, whether in sports or coaching or sports related business.

[Mikey 16,576]

8 hours ago, Hank2020 said:

In what era was that? That is certainly not the case now.

It was a long time ago. It was exciting going to the freshman games and watching Pat Sullivan and Terry Beasley romp and look forward to when they could play on the varsity.

[AUght2win 6,833]

23 hours ago, CT Tiger said:

No, you are right. But I never claimed that it did. 

Let me answer your first question with my own question--how many book store employees helped the university bring in 9 figure revenues as a direct result of their contribution? 

Well that’s where the narrative comes in. That money is going to a school. It’s being spent to fund other sports and programs. In the same token, what’s the macro amount of money all of high school football brings in per year? If you’re going to look at school programs the same way you’d like at a private business, there’s also an ethical dilemma at the HS level.

Another problem is very VERY few kids have a case to credit themselves, as individuals, for bringing in the money to schools.

Every fan wants their team to succeed, and individual players contribute to that success.

But how can you quantify what a 3rd string WR who never sees the field should make? Does he really have an argument that he is responsible for moving the needle in either direction in terms of his school’s football profits? If you break it down, a player like that is probably overpaid currently with their total scholarship and housing/food/training costs.

People want to apply private business standards to CFB. I just want answers to the questions that are raised when you do that. 

[GunsmithAU 383]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:01 AM, Mikey said:

I had several football and basketball players in some of my AU classes. I thought they were normal students, with a part-time job that took up way more time than my 20-hour a week job took. One football classmate told me his grades looked like a saw blade: up in the summer, down in fall, up in winter, down in spring.

The guys I knew were concerned with their grades, just like the rest of us were.

Auburn has a major dedicated to passing idiot athletes. Student athlete hasn't been a thing in your big sports for a while. 

Usually the ones with real degrees weren't your stars, starters, or studs. 

Add in the nearly infinite on demand resources given to athletes and even during the season there is no reason for issues. 

[GunsmithAU 383]

On 8/19/2022 at 3:19 PM, CT Tiger said:

Yeah I am pretty much right there with you. I always found the argument that student athletes can't also be employees because their students to not make much sense. There are all types of student workers on college campuses, from TA and research assistant to working in bookstores, various offices, rec centers and other facilities. Why can't athletes who compete at the highest collegiate level, especially as the workhorses in a multibillion dollar industry, also be considered as a type of employee? (Other than screwing them out of a cut of profits and the ability to unionize.)

Relying solely on an unregulated NIL model with an unrestricted transfer portal is much worse, IMO. The best students can just transfer to the highest bidder after each season. 

Hell, the students who work for the AD are paid. From admin to coaching assistants to film, they are all paid at the big universities. 

The big schools also give the student assistants the same access to resources. I worked out with the team, saw the team doc, met with Dr Andrews, was able to get the team tutors, etc. 

[GunsmithAU 383]

45 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Well that’s where the narrative comes in. That money is going to a school. It’s being spent to fund other sports and programs. In the same token, what’s the macro amount of money all of high school football brings in per year? If you’re going to look at school programs the same way you’d like at a private business, there’s also an ethical dilemma at the HS level.

Another problem is very VERY few kids have a case to credit themselves, as individuals, for bringing in the money to schools.

Every fan wants their team to succeed, and individual players contribute to that success.

But how can you quantify what a 3rd string WR who never sees the field should make? Does he really have an argument that he is responsible for moving the needle in either direction in terms of his school’s football profits? If you break it down, a player like that is probably overpaid currently with their total scholarship and housing/food/training costs.

People want to apply private business standards to CFB. I just want answers to the questions that are raised when you do that. 

If the league is run like a business with a draft option for the top talent introducing league minimums and a scholarship track for the less talented you can fix that. The draft guy can't transfer and can be cut. You can offer an incentive graduation bonus for the transfer option players and bar them from moving up to the paid tier even if through transfer. 

[AUght2win 6,833]

1 hour ago, GunsmithAU said:

If the league is run like a business with a draft option for the top talent introducing league minimums and a scholarship track for the less talented you can fix that. The draft guy can't transfer and can be cut. You can offer an incentive graduation bonus for the transfer option players and bar them from moving up to the paid tier even if through transfer. 

Draft won’t ever work because not every school has the majors kids want. Kris Frost a few years back was an aviation major. AU was one of the few schools to have that program. If a school without his major drafts him, what’s he supposed to do? 

That’s why this stuff is messy. You can’t draft kids into going to your school and being a student.

[AUght2win 6,833]

2 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

Hell, the students who work for the AD are paid. From admin to coaching assistants to film, they are all paid at the big universities. 

The big schools also give the student assistants the same access to resources. I worked out with the team, saw the team doc, met with Dr Andrews, was able to get the team tutors, etc. 

I worked for the AD as a student and was not paid.

[GunsmithAU 383]

1 hour ago, AUght2win said:

Draft won’t ever work because not every school has the majors kids want. Kris Frost a few years back was an aviation major. AU was one of the few schools to have that program. If a school without his major drafts him, what’s he supposed to do? 

That’s why this stuff is messy. You can’t draft kids into going to your school and being a student.

If his degree is more important than the money, he can still go student route, go to Auburn get his degree and not be paid outside if the said graduation bonus. He can still go pro, gets his education, and all the other current benefits. 

 

Or if he would rather money, he can always take the cash and go to school after his football career. 

[GunsmithAU 383]

1 hour ago, AUght2win said:

I worked for the AD as a student and was not paid.

When was this? I dont remember anyone who wasnt paid when i was there. 

[AUght2win 6,833]

3 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

When was this? I dont remember anyone who wasnt paid when i was there. 

About 10 years ago. Pretty sure a lot of students do part time gigs or internships for free for the university.

[AUght2win 6,833]

3 hours ago, GunsmithAU said:

If his degree is more important than the money, he can still go student route, go to Auburn get his degree and not be paid outside if the said graduation bonus. He can still go pro, gets his education, and all the other current benefits. 

Or if he would rather money, he can always take the cash and go to school after his football career. 

Nobody is going to make kids choose between the two. You could make that argument right now as a reason to keep college football the way it is.

[GunsmithAU 383]

47 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

About 10 years ago. Pretty sure a lot of students do part time gigs or internships for free for the university.

The only interns I knew were short term grads. They were not paid, but usually only worked a few months before it led to a job. 

 

Interesting though. 

[GunsmithAU 383]

47 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Nobody is going to make kids choose between the two. You could make that argument right now as a reason to keep college football the way it is.

Kids already make that choice in baseball getting to he drafted out of HS. And their option to go pro is absolute garbage. They get paid literally nothing, and have to take on out of season jobs to survive. A CFB draft option would pay more and provide better opportunities down the road. 

There is no reason why a draft and paid option vs a recruit and school option wouldn't be viable. 

[AUFightingSoldiers 685]

On 8/19/2022 at 1:10 PM, Hank2020 said:

In what era was that? That is certainly not the case now.

It might not be now, but I had the same experiences from 2007-2012 in the Department of Kinesiology. The vast majority of athletes I had class with were diligent with their studies. 

[CT Tiger 136]

19 hours ago, AUght2win said:

Well that’s where the narrative comes in. That money is going to a school. It’s being spent to fund other sports and programs. In the same token, what’s the macro amount of money all of high school football brings in per year? If you’re going to look at school programs the same way you’d like at a private business, there’s also an ethical dilemma at the HS level.

Another problem is very VERY few kids have a case to credit themselves, as individuals, for bringing in the money to schools.

Every fan wants their team to succeed, and individual players contribute to that success.

But how can you quantify what a 3rd string WR who never sees the field should make? Does he really have an argument that he is responsible for moving the needle in either direction in terms of his school’s football profits? If you break it down, a player like that is probably overpaid currently with their total scholarship and housing/food/training costs.

People want to apply private business standards to CFB. I just want answers to the questions that are raised when you do that. 

You absolutely raise valid points. Yes, that revenue goes to the school's athletic department and is vital in subsidizing other sports. And yes, a 3rd string WR almost definitely moves the needle less compared to a star player.

But I don't think those aren't things that can be addressed in the creation of a strong framework, uniform across the board for FBS teams. Look, I'm not saying that schools should be paying players 7 figures per season; but just off the top of my head, what about having a five-tier structure that's reevaluated before each season?

(Note: The numbers are just hypothetical for this next part and those specifics should be decided after rigorous analysis to determine appropriate dollar amounts.)

Something like $100,000 for tier 1 players, $50,000 for tier 2, $25,000 for tier 3, the usual full scholarship for tier 4, and tier 5 would be walk-ons without an athletic scholarship. Tiers 1-3 also include a full athletic scholarship. Each school will be allowed the same limited number of tier 1, 2, and 3 "paid" scholarships. (These would effectively be salary caps for teams to ensure that a school with stupidly deep pockets like Texas can't just buy all of the top recruits. Every school would probably offer a 5* recruit tier 1 status, but things could be interesting for the 4* and top 3* recruits. Say there's a promising in-state OL that the gumps and us are chasing hard. They can only offer tier 2 while we still have enough tier 1's and are in serious need of good OL recruits. 

Throw in some reforms to reasonably limit misuse of the transfer portal. Maybe allow one freebie but any after that require either sitting out a season like the old rule? Or maybe one freebie and any transfers afterwards would disqualify them from tier 1-3 for one season. That way they can still play ball without impacting their NFL aspirations. 

NIL would also need to have strong, but fair and LEGAL regulations that can be easily reconciled with any proposed player payment structure to ensure that we see uniform "salary caps" across the board for CFB at the highest level. 

 

I just came up with this idea on a whim while sitting on the throne after a morning coffee, so I'm sure there are plenty of holes that can be poked in it, and I hope that people will (respectfully, of course). I just want to see if those holes can be patched up to strengthen it.